Health Care to "control the people" - Page 7

flip · 03-27-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Well, I know what you meant, but I giggle when people say they don't have a choice-- yeah, you do have a choice, but the consequence of the other is undesirable.

Homelessness is seldom a choice though. I say seldom because many I have met want a job if given a chance, but I know of one person (who appear homeless, but isn't) that said that they make more money begging than working... So..

I've been told so about begging, too. The deaf russian mafia got lots of peddlers around in europe. A peddler told me they make good amounts of money, something like 30K dollars in 6 months. Incredible

I've never tried to work in the US, but 2 weeks off sounds horrible. It's perhaps not that strict in reality?

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

The toddlers creed:

It's mine. You can't tell me what to do!

Yep. The immaturity is astounding.

**TXgolfer** · 03-27-2010, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Well, I know what you meant, but I giggle when people say they don't have a choice-- yeah, you do have a choice, but the consequence of the other is undesirable.

Homelessness is seldom a choice though. I say seldom because many I have met want a job if given a chance, but I know of one person (who appear homeless, but isn't) that said that they make more money begging than working... So..

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year. I have had a different experience than you. I often tried to hire the homeless as day labor perhaps more if they possessed any skills. Most did not want to work. The few that did told me many see homelessness as a lifestyle of freedom. That is the reason they seek bridges rather than shelters. For some it is freedom to abuse drugs and alcohol. For others it is freedom from obligation. There are enough charities and churches to provide shelter for all of the homeless. The difficult part is getting them to take shelter. That's why I say it's a choice. A bad or delusional choice maybe, but still a choice.

**TXgolfer** · 03-27-2010, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

The toddlers creed:

It's mine. You can't tell me what to do!

Toddlers also have a difficult time understanding they can't take toys from others just because they want them

flip · 03-27-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year. I have had a different experience than you. I often tried to hire the homeless as day labor perhaps more if they possessed any skills. Most did not want to work. The few that did told me many see homelessness as a lifestyle of freedom. That is the reason they seek bridges rather than shelters. For some it is freedom to abuse drugs and alcohol. For others it is freedom from obligation. There are enough charities and churches to provide shelter for all of the homeless. The difficult part is getting them to take shelter. That's why I say it's a choice. A bad or delusional choice maybe, but still a choice.

It's a choice yeah, but I don't get it that you americans are satisified with limited choices. You got more choices if you can choose between 2 and 5 weeks off.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year. I have had a different experience than you. I often tried to hire the homeless as day labor perhaps more if they possessed any skills. Most did not want to work. The few that did told me many see homelessness as a lifestyle of freedom. That is the reason they seek bridges rather than shelters. For some it is freedom to abuse drugs and alcohol. For others it is freedom from obligation. There are enough charities and churches to provide shelter for all of the homeless. The difficult part is getting them to take shelter. That's why I say it's a choice. A bad or delusional choice maybe, but still a choice.

That is a decidedly untrue statement.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Toddlers also have a difficult time understanding they can't take toys from others just because they want them

A creed is not a lack of understanding based on development. What you have just stated is just that.

A creed is statement of a philosophy one lives by.

Two very different concepts with very different meanings.

**shel90** · 03-27-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year. I have had a different experience than you. I often tried to hire the homeless as day labor perhaps more if they possessed any skills. Most did not want to work. The few that did told me many see homelessness as a lifestyle of freedom. That is the reason they seek bridges rather than shelters. For some it is freedom to abuse drugs and alcohol. For others it is freedom from obligation. There are enough charities and churches to provide shelter for all of the homeless. The difficult part is getting them to take shelter. That's why I say it's a choice. A bad or delusional choice maybe, but still a choice.

I know a few people who are homeless and they have tried seeking shelter only to be turned away due to them being full.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I know a few people who are homeless and they have tried seeking shelter only to be turned away due to them being full.

It happens on a daily basis.

**Reba** · 03-27-2010, 04:28 PM

I started out this semester with 22 hours of work per week. Then, it went down to 18 hours. Then, it went down to 4 hours. Last few weeks, it's been 2 hours per week. Starting next week, it will be 0 hours per week. I will have at least two months of unpaid "vacation." If no students register, I may have 0 hours of work for several months. I won't know until the first day of school of each semester, for the next two years (length of my contract).

I don't need any more "vacation." Sigh....

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I know a few people who are homeless and they have tried seeking shelter only to be turned away due to them being full.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It happens on a daily basis.

we can't always feed everybody, shelter everybody, help everybody. it's wishful thinking. this new healthcare reform does not even help insure 100% of Americans.

**TXgolfer** · 03-27-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I know a few people who are homeless and they have tried seeking shelter only to be turned away due to them being full.

Did they try every church too? No there are not enough shelters alone.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

we can't always feed everybody, shelter everybody, help everybody. it's wishful thinking. this new healthcare reform does not even help insure 100% of Americans.

No one said we could. We were refuting TXGolfer's statement that there were plenty of shelters and charities to take care of the homeless.

souggy · 03-27-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I have had a different experience than you.

You guys don't get -40 to -50C winters.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Did they try every church too? No there are not enough shelters alone.

Churches are generally not licensed to function as homeless shelters.

And, as difficult as you find it to believe...not all homeless are Christian, either. More of that egocentrism.

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No one said we could. We were refuting TXGolfer's statement that there were plenty of shelters and charities to take care of the homeless.

yes there are. plenty in NYC as well. but plenty of homeless who do not want shelters. we have programs that offer food, coat, shelter, cell phone, etc.

DC has bunch too. In front of Union Station, there is a small group of students holding a lunch bag. They wait for homeless people to come to them and they give it to them. Homeless people said thank you and the students had a small talk with them. From what I see - i think they're encouraging them to seek help/shelter or something.

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

You guys don't get -40 to -50C winters.

Fahrenheit please

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes there are. plenty in NYC as well. but plenty of homeless who do not want shelters. we have programs that offer food, coat, shelter, cell phone, etc.

DC has bunch too. In front of Union Station, there is a small group of students holding a lunch bag. They wait for homeless people to come to them and they give it to them. Homeless people said thank you and the students had a small talk with them. From what I see - i think they're encouraging them to seek help/shelter or something.

Oh, I see. You have personally gone out and talked to the homeless and questioned them on their motivation?

The fact of the matter is, there are not enough shelters to care for all of the homeless.

souggy · 03-27-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year.

Well, I haven't met a prostitute, beggar, peddler and so on that called what they are doing as "work" yet... so I am assuming their definition of work is referring to the hourly-wage system. In fact the person in the example called the lifestyle of being paid hourly wage "working."

**shel90** · 03-27-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

we can't always feed everybody, shelter everybody, help everybody. it's wishful thinking. this new healthcare reform does not even help insure 100% of Americans.

Right..the healthcare reform would definitely help people like my brother..have jobs but no health benefits from their jobs.

souggy · 03-27-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Fahrenheit please

-40F is the same as -40C...

-50C is cold enough that you guys can just assume what it is since -40F is cold enough already.

**shel90** · 03-27-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Oh, I see. You have personally gone out and talked to the homeless and questioned them on their motivation?

The fact of the matter is, there are not enough shelters to care for all of the homeless.

There is some truth to what Jiro said..some homeless people do not want shelter nor get help from people.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Begging is working. A few years ago there was a story here in Dallas and most of the beggars were not homeless. Some made $40,000 a year. I have had a different experience than you. I often tried to hire the homeless as day labor perhaps more if they possessed any skills. Most did not want to work. The few that did told me many see homelessness as a lifestyle of freedom. That is the reason they seek bridges rather than shelters. For some it is freedom to abuse drugs and alcohol. For others it is freedom from obligation. There are enough charities and churches to provide shelter for all of the homeless. The difficult part is getting them to take shelter. That's why I say it's a choice. A bad or delusional choice maybe, but still a choice.

Since that was a public story, I would like to see the bolded statement supported with a source.

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

-40F is the same as -40C...

-50C is cold enough that you guys can just assume what it is since -40F is cold enough already.

souggy · 03-27-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

If I was living in Texas, I would be living outdoor all the time too.

I wouldn't have to worry about losing fingers!

**TXgolfer** · 03-27-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

You guys don't get -40 to -50C winters.

That's true too.....lol. Thank God.

I have no idea why anyone would chose not to seek shelter in that situation. As for my area we have private shelters, city funded shelters and church shelters. On top of that we have Church vans from many churches looking for the homeless and begging them to come stay. Our police will also transport the homeless to shelters,churches and private homes if requested. Perhaps I was wrong in assuming the entire country cared as much about the homeless as we do here in Texas. I guess we are just more Progressive.

We still have a homeless problem.....but it is because some won't accept shelter.

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Since that was a public story, I would like to see the bolded statement supported with a source.

On the Streets: Why Homeless People Refuse Shelter :: Texas Tech Today

Quote:

Four years ago, a Texas Tech sociologist took a different approach by studying homeless people who preferred living on the streets to shelters.

When he asked why many stayed away from shelters, what he found uncovered one of the biggest problems with how social assistance programs deal with the homeless across the country.

Jason Wasserman, an assistant professor of sociology in the Department of Sociology, Anthropology and Social Work, chronicled the four-year research project in a new book, “At Home on the Street: People, Poverty and a Hidden Culture of Homelessness.” The book was co-authored by Jeffrey Michael Clair, an associate professor of sociology in the Department of Sociology and Social Work at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

Discovering the Truth
The main reason why many homeless people shied away from shelter services was because submitting to a drug-treatment program was a prerequisite for admission. The vast majority of the street homeless population interviewed by Wasserman and Clair said they didn’t have a drug problem and would not say they did just to access the shelter.

The other reason many refused shelter assistance is because they felt like shelter workers treated them more like children than adults, he said.

........

Learning Through Experience

“Originally, we thought that the problem with homeless services was that they were not funded enough,” he said. “We became more critical of the services once we started looking into them. It seemed the shelters dealt with addiction and mental illness almost exclusively. That’s great if that’s your problem, but alienating if it’s not. One thing nearly all homeless people do want is jobs. They don’t want treatment or even meals. But they will work, and they will push and shove to get a job.

“Overall, we found the shelters followed a medical model of homelessness, where treatment is required to access services. This puts a band-aid on just a few of the individual symptoms associated with homelessness rather than being attentive to the way society contributes to the problem. In that way, social programs sometimes can make the problem worse.”

Why Homeless People Don't Use Shelters

Quote:

Reasons Homeless People Avoid Shelters
Shelter Hours Incompatible with Work Hours
Lack of Handicapped Accommodations
Danger of Rape or Assault
An Invasive and Disrespectful Check in Process
Why Do People Become Homeless?
Lack of Respect for Handicapped Individuals
Separation of Family Members
Fear of Contracting Parasites
Staff Assumptions about Drug Use and Criminality
Danger of Theft
Fear of Contracting Disease
The Best Ways to Help Homeless People
Religious Differences
Homeless Shelters in the News
Do We Need More, Better Homeless Shelters and Help for Existent Ones?
Drug Addictions
What Is It Like to Be Homeless?
Lack of Privacy and Fear of Crowds
Lack of Control
More on Homelessness by this Author
Some Service Dogs are Barred from Shelters
And the #1 Reason - Lack of Available Beds
Read More about Homelessness
Denied Entry Due to Mental Illness
No Pets Allowed

jillio · 03-27-2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

There is some truth to what Jiro said..some homeless people do not want shelter nor get help from people.

Some, not all. And there aren't sufficient shelters to care for those who do. One cannot compare what is available to the homeless in NYC to what is available in less populated areas of the country. One cannot compare what is available in a big city to what is available in a township. Yet homeless are everywhere. Saying there is sufficient means available in NYC does not mean that there are sufficient means elsewhere in this country. Overall, there are not enough shelters to house the homeless in the U.S. Not to mention criteria that cause people not to seek shelter at the one place that might be available.

If there were sufficient means everywhere in this country to care for the homeless that do want shelter, no one would ever be turned away because a shelter is full.

**Jiro** · 03-27-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Some, not all. And there aren't sufficient shelters to care for those who do. One cannot compare what is available to the homeless in NYC to what is available in less populated areas of the country. One cannot compare what is available in a big city to what is available in a township. Yet homeless are everywhere. Saying there is sufficient means available in NYC does not mean that there are sufficient means elsewhere in this country. Overall, there are not enough shelters to house the homeless in the U.S. Not to mention criteria that cause people not to seek shelter at the one place that might be available.

If there were sufficient means everywhere in this country to care for the homeless that do want shelter, no one would ever be turned away because a shelter is full.

see above. that sociologist has already done homework for you.

jillio · 03-27-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

On the Streets: Why Homeless People Refuse Shelter :: Texas Tech Today

Why Homeless People Don't Use Shelters

Thanks. You have supported what I have just said. Criteria for admission rules too many homeless out.

But, I don't see anything in that post about homeless not wanting shelter because they are making $40,000 a year. Nor does it say that the ones that are disallowed due to criteria "want" to be homeless. It says criteria makes it impossible for them to gain admittance to a shelter.

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03-27-2010, 04:28 PM	#190 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,153	I started out this semester with 22 hours of work per week. Then, it went down to 18 hours. Then, it went down to 4 hours. Last few weeks, it's been 2 hours per week. Starting next week, it will be 0 hours per week. I will have at least two months of unpaid "vacation." If no students register, I may have 0 hours of work for several months. I won't know until the first day of school of each semester, for the next two years (length of my contract). I don't need any more "vacation." Sigh....