Health Care to "control the people" - Page 5

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Actually, she meant those bedridden people will end up being supported by taxpayers because they're completely unable to get a job, but it's also inhumane to end their lives... So effectively, they become a societal burden on social security because they made a reckless mistake of not wearing proper gears.

Once you've broke your skull or your neck, it's kinda hard to get yourself un-bedridden (or off of life-support in a wheelchair even) for the rest of your life.

I know.....I was joking about the productive member of society.

I have no problem with helmet and seat belt laws. Riding a bike or driving a car is a privilege

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Actually, she meant those bedridden people will end up being supported by taxpayers because they're completely unable to get a job, but it's also inhumane to end their lives... So effectively, they become a societal burden on social security because they made a reckless mistake of not wearing proper gears.

Once you've broke your skull or your neck, it's kinda hard to get yourself un-bedridden (or off of life-support in a wheelchair even) for the rest of your life.

yes but point is... now with this reform... that means a much more cases that we have to pay for.... hence Kokonut's valid concern about how we are going to fund this especially with this crappy economy and unemployment going on. We are BROKE.

souggy · 03-26-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I know.....I was joking about the productive member of society.

I have no problem with helmet and seat belt laws. Riding a bike or driving a car is a privilege

That one went so far under the radar.

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

That one went so far under the radar.

I should have included an emoticon

The fight here was more about how helmet laws and seat belt laws came about. The Fed gov threatened Texas with loss of highway funds if they didn't comply with Fed guidelines. That didn't sit well with many.

That is also how our legal drinking age came to be 21. It was 18 until 1980 or so. Changed to 19 until 1986 when it became 21.

Question is whether it is right for the Federal Government to withhold funds to compel state law changes when the citizens and businesses of that state provide the government with those funds in the first place.

souggy · 03-26-2010, 04:18 PM

Should had kept it at 18.

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Should had kept it at 18.

I am legal no so no problem

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I certainly hope it will turn out for best but right now - I'm not very thrilled about mandatory insurance. well too late now. they passed it. now we're all together in the boat with holes so it's best we all row the boat together to the nearest island and see what happens in the end instead of bickering while the boat's sinking.

Agreed. But there are those that are paddling so hard against the current that we aren't getting anywhere. Seems they have no concept of working together.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's because we have PRIVATIZED healthcare where majority of the world benefits from us. only about 15% of Americans are not insured.

wondering what's next.... requiring each household to have a computer and internet in order to improve our education system?

That's 15% too many in an industrialized and wealthy society.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I hear a lot of talking from opponents of the bill that it is unconstitutional. How so? Congress is empowered by the Constitution to regulate interstate commerce. Opponents argue that Congress's mandate that individuals must purchase insurance from private vendors is unprecedented, because uninsured individuals can't participate in commerce. Others argue that the health insurance mandate is clearly under the Constitution. Would the Supreme Court say that Congress can't regulate people who are participating in the $1 trillion health-care market? Naw. The lawsuits soon to appear before the Supreme Court simply don't have any legs both as a matter of precedence and as a matter of common sense.

Their legs are so shaky that it is a strong probability that the cases will never even be heard.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh. I think I misunderstood your answer. I thought you were referring to the impact of my death on family members and friends.

your quote in response to my previous post that in health care - it affects only me - "Not quite true when you look at the results of health care that affect the others in your life, as well as society as a whole."

new response - I am not responsible for their well-being.

You are. however, responsible for harm when you make irresponsible decisions without concern for the way those decisions affect others.

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You are. however, responsible for harm when you make irresponsible decisions without concern for the way those decisions affect others.

how? example?

souggy · 03-26-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I am legal no so no problem

Legal too, but...

I rather have teens make dumb choices at 18 during their first year, than to make them at 21... when they're half-way through school.

Alberta's age limit is 18 as well.

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by souggy

Butterfly effect.

inverse-square law

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes but point is... now with this reform... that means a much more cases that we have to pay for.... hence Kokonut's valid concern about how we are going to fund this especially with this crappy economy and unemployment going on. We are BROKE.

What makes you think the accident rate is going to go up just because coverage is mandated? That's quite a reach.

souggy · 03-26-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

inverse-square law

Ironically, I know a catchy song for that...

Sadly.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

how? example?

I have explained it numerous times. Choose for instance, not to be insured, end up needing catastrophic care for which you have no coverage, and the rest of society pays when medical costs rise as the result of your irresponsibility.

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I have explained it numerous times. Choose for instance, not to be insured, end up needing catastrophic care for which you have no coverage, and the rest of society pays when medical costs rise as the result of your irresponsibility.

the rest of society pays for medical cost? this was before the reform?

so what's the difference with this reform? the society is paying for it too.

**Beowulf** · 03-26-2010, 07:32 PM

I am surprised outsourcing still takes place in today's economic reality. I suspect it will be reined in soon enough, though.

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

the rest of society pays for medical cost? this was before the reform?

so what's the difference with this reform? the society is paying for it too.

Exactly it just shifts costs rather than reducing them........Real reform would seek to lower costs first....then provide when necessary. This plan raises costs up front.....hopes the economy can pay it off later. Possible, but very unlikely

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I am surprised outsourcing still takes place in today's economic reality. I suspect it will be reined in soon enough, though.

They won't do that.....companies would move their operations then.

**Beowulf** · 03-26-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

They won't do that.....companies would move their operations then.

Not all of them. Not those with good old-fashioned morals.

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

Not all of them. Not those with good old-fashioned morals.

Morals? Please. It's business. Business says if you are not making money you make changes that allow you to make money.....Pretty simple. And there is nothing immoral about it unless the business is immoral to begin with.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

the rest of society pays for medical cost? this was before the reform?

so what's the difference with this reform? the society is paying for it too.

Two words, Jiro: preventive care.

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Morals? Please. It's business. Business says if you are not making money you make changes that allow you to make money.....Pretty simple. And there is nothing immoral about it unless the business is immoral to begin with.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I am surprised outsourcing still takes place in today's economic reality. I suspect it will be reined in soon enough, though.

No doubt.

**Jiro** · 03-26-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Two words, Jiro: preventive care.

I don't think that's gonna work in here as it does in Europe because our concept of economy is vastly different. We are fast. profitable. demanding. Europe? They think they've got all the time in the world.

so 2 words for you - inverse-square law. that's 2 words if I use the hyphen, right?

**TXgolfer** · 03-26-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

That's it. It's that simple. When costs are put upon a business they have three choices.....Fold, raise prices, cut expenses. I guess there is a 4th....take it in the ass.....but they are not going to do that.

If, once the cost are put upon the business price controls are added, or sources of revenue and labor are limited, changes are still made. It just forces the Companies hand as to which choice they make.

Business is not rocket surgery (

)

souggy · 03-26-2010, 08:03 PM

It is rocket surgery.

Ask the Germans.

jillio · 03-26-2010, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I don't think that's gonna work in here as it does in Europe because our concept of economy is vastly different. We are fast. profitable. demanding. Europe? They think they've got all the time in the world.

so 2 words for you - inverse-square law. that's 2 words if I use the hyphen, right?

No, actually it's called a hyphenated word.

The economy being different has virtually nothing to do with people thinking they have all the time in the world. That is simply a lack of maturity. But preventive care has been shown to work. People not being able to access preventive care because they have a maximum to fulfill before their insurance kicks in, or not being insured at all, is the main reason that people don't utilize preventive care services.

**sallylou** · 03-26-2010, 09:53 PM

The problem with people in business is their reliance on mathematical exponential growth. It only works well for bacteria.

03-26-2010, 04:18 PM	#125 (permalink)
souggy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 9,541	Should had kept it at 18. __________________ "It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman

03-26-2010, 08:03 PM	#148 (permalink)
souggy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 9,541	It is rocket surgery. Ask the Germans. __________________ "It is my task to convince you not to turn away because you don’t understand it." - Richard Freynman

03-26-2010, 09:53 PM	#150 (permalink)
sallylou Potterhead and Janeite Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 6,653	The problem with people in business is their reliance on mathematical exponential growth. It only works well for bacteria. __________________

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03-26-2010, 07:32 PM	#138 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,515	I am surprised outsourcing still takes place in today's economic reality. I suspect it will be reined in soon enough, though.