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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:42 AM   #331 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daredevel7 View Post
Your argument is "legalize marijuana and cocaine"
They are saying "We need better prevention and intervention"

Those things are completely different. "Better prevention and intervention." can support ANY argument that calls for a change in the current drug policy.
actually it's tied together. I'm getting tired of reiterating my points over and over and over again. Legalize the drug and TAX it. Use the tax to fund the prevention and intervention programs.... why? because it makes sense and it costs far less than current Drug War. that way... we'll have plenty enough money to spend on MORE CONCERNING ISSUES like health care and education. Didn't you read your own source that there are NO MONEY for prevention and treatment programs because the budget is being spent on criminalizing and combating!!! This drug issue ISN'T EVEN a huge issue like it is but this small issue is what consumes TREMENDOUS amount of tax money. in short -

Drug War = small issue and HUGE cost
Health Care = HUGE issue and small cost (meaning - government doesn't give a shit about it)
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:43 AM   #332 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Babyblue View Post
Ignorance is a bliss "Jiro"

especially when you base your theory on one side.

You do not see the effect... You just see how it saves your tax money.

You do not see how the drugs affect people, and the people around them.

You are just looking at the $$$$ signs.

Which shows that you support the true failure of society.

I never claimed alcohol, or tobacco does not have an affect on people.

I just claimed and ask, why enable society to be allowed to be more self destructive? ( a question that you never answered)

As your Chart that you have posted above. It had the lowest rate.

I can only imagine illicit drug was legalized.

Sorry pal!!

You can bend it back and forth, twist and turn it.....

Still..... Your theory is a total.... how you say it?? OH YEAH!!

An EPIC FAIL
How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?

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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:45 AM   #333 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
actually it's tied together. I'm getting tired of reiterating my points over and over and over again. Legalize the drug and TAX it. Use the tax to fund the prevention and intervention programs.... why? because it makes sense and it costs far less than current Drug War. that way... we'll have plenty enough money to spend on MORE CONCERNING ISSUES like health care and education. Didn't you read your own source that there are NO MONEY for prevention and treatment programs because the budget is being spent on criminalizing and combating!!! This drug issue ISN'T EVEN a huge issue like it is but this small issue is what consumes TREMENDOUS amount of tax money. in short -

Drug War = small issue and HUGE cost
Health Care = HUGE issue and small cost (meaning - government doesn't give a shit about it)
Of course, save money, screw the people.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:46 AM   #334 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?


Much better than when cocaine was at its peak in the 80's..
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:58 AM   #335 (permalink)
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Keep digging!! The 80's was the peak of the drug war.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:13 AM   #336 (permalink)
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Keep digging!! The 80's was the peak of the drug war.
That was...... 29 years ago. A completely different era than now. We have a completely new socioeconomic issue and dynamic. sorry but TRY AGAIN! Thanks for shovel. I'm digging a hole for you

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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:21 AM   #337 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daredevel7 View Post
Random punches because its funny? I dont get it. What random punches?

Anyway, I asked if you were for legalizing heroin, and someone else said that you weren't for it. And if that is true, I'd like to know why.


Also, to answer your question before about "How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?"

It isn't, but maybe this is the best as it gets.

I'm all for trying new things, but the problem with legalization of ALL drugs... is that if it doesn't work, and it indeed did make things worse, we'd have a LOT to deal with. Which is why it's much better to start with one....... the safest one.
For starter - watch the debate MORE carefully..... I've CLEARLY stated my position on this issue several times. and read your own source before you provide it to me and maybe give me your alternative idea for this troubling issue.

to answer your question regarding my stance on heroin - because it's a dirty drug. However - I do recognize it as one of the biggest drug uses and that means we need to adjust our approach toward it.... but I do not support legalizing heroin and I do not support our current policy toward heroin and any other drugs. For now - some states have a few clinics that dispense clean syringes for heroin users and I fully SUPPORT this policy.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:39 AM   #338 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
That was...... 29 years ago. A completely different era than now. We have a completely new socioeconomic issue and dynamic. sorry but TRY AGAIN! Thanks for shovel. I'm digging a hole for you

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/i...gin_smilie.gif

Looks like you are digging one for yourself.

I truly pity you!!

again you have not answered my question. I answered yours. :shrug: guess you are too busy digging that hole of yours.

Quote:
I just claimed and ask, why enable society to be allowed to be more self destructive? ( a question that you never answered)
Quoting myself
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:41 AM   #339 (permalink)
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Looks like you are digging one for yourself.

I truly pity you!!

again you have not answered my question. I answered yours. :shrug: guess you are too busy digging that hole of yours.


Quoting myself
that question is already answered in many of my posts. If the best you can do is throw some "zings".... then I pity you for not being objective on this issue.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:52 AM   #340 (permalink)
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that question is already answered in many of my posts. If the best you can do is throw some "zings".... then I pity you for not being objective on this issue.

You pity me or just pissed at me for not agreeing with your view???

I have stated what I need to say. You keep your views, and do not forget to vote for all of your "so called clean drugs" Just to prove to society that the government is nothing but a screw up, due to they allow this and that.

Can't take an inch with out taking the whole yard, can ya???

Have a good night Jiro. I'm gonna hit the sack!!
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:54 AM   #341 (permalink)
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You pity me or just pissed at me for not agreeing with your view???

I have stated what I need to say. You keep your views, and do not forget to vote for all of your "so called clean drugs" Just to prove to society that the government is nothing but a screw up, due to they allow this and that.

Can't take an inch with out taking the whole yard, can ya???

Have a good night Jiro. I'm gonna hit the sack!!
Pity. I do recognize all POV (as long as it's reasonably logical) but your POV is as fallacious as abortionists and Prohibitionists. Good night!
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Unread 03-22-2009, 09:24 AM   #342 (permalink)
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to answer your question regarding my stance on heroin - because it's a dirty drug. However - I do recognize it as one of the biggest drug uses and that means we need to adjust our approach toward it.... but I do not support legalizing heroin and I do not support our current policy toward heroin and any other drugs. For now - some states have a few clinics that dispense clean syringes for heroin users and I fully SUPPORT this policy.
LOL.. because it's a dirty drug? What makes heroin and cocaine so different... because cocaine is a rich man's drug? Surely, we can clean up heroin and make it a nice "clean" low grade drug.

I support legalizing marijuana and taxing it (just like how you want to legalize cocaine and taxing it), but I don't support legalizing cocaine the same way you don't support legalizing heroin. We just have different opinions on "dirty drugs".

I agree with you about dispensing clean syringes.

There is only ONE reason why you want to legalize drugs, you want to be able to get revenue from the drug users themselves to pay for their own mess. And the only way to do this is to tax the drugs they use. Like I said, save money, screw the people.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 09:29 AM   #343 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Babyblue View Post

I just claimed and ask, why enable society to be allowed to be more self destructive? ( a question that you never answered)

.

This leads to what I consider a key question in the issue of drugs, one that is seldom glanced at: Why are so many people in our society self destructive -- And I do not just mean drugs, although I put drug addiction at the top of the list -- And what can be done to raise generations of self constructive people rather than self destructive people.

A seriously self destructive person will seek drugs whether they are legal or not.

A self constructive person will avoid drugs whether they are legal or not.

How do we define self destructive behavior in such a way as to produce a larger percentage of people who would actively seek constructive behavior.

How do we produce future generations who will want to love, laugh, and live, rather than hate, frown, and die.

To put it another way, "What factors in our society produce a death wish?"
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Unread 03-22-2009, 09:32 AM   #344 (permalink)
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This leads to what I consider a key question in the issue of drugs, one that is seldom glanced at: Why are so many people in our society self destructive -- And I do not just mean drugs, although I put drug addiction at the top of the list -- And what can be done to raise generations of self constructive people rather than self destructive people.

A seriously self destructive person will seek drugs whether they are legal or not.

A self constructive person will avoid drugs whether they are legal or not.

How do we define self destructive behavior in such a way as to produce a larger percentage of people who would actively seek constructive behavior.

How do we produce future generations who will want to love, laugh, and live, rather than hate, frown, and die.

To put it another way, "What factors in our society produce a death wish?"
Yea, the key to solving the drug problem is to get to the root of the problem.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 09:36 AM   #345 (permalink)
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There is only ONE reason why you want to legalize drugs, you want to be able to get revenue from the drug users themselves to pay for their own mess. And the only way to do this is to tax the drugs they use. Like I said, save money, screw the people.
Thank You!!

I am so happy that I am not the only person seeing this!!
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Unread 03-22-2009, 09:42 AM   #346 (permalink)
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Yea, the key to solving the drug problem is to get to the root of the problem.
I agree!
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Unread 03-22-2009, 10:03 AM   #347 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daredevel7 View Post

There is only ONE reason why you want to legalize drugs, you want to be able to get revenue from the drug users themselves to pay for their own mess. And the only way to do this is to tax the drugs they use. Like I said, save money, screw the people

.
Maybe, but the financial aspect that bothers me the most is what my late wife's relative, who is a policeman, said, "Our enemies sell our kids drugs in order to funnel money out of the United States and use that same money to launch attacks against us."

He felt this is the aspect of the "drug war" that should be treated as the most important issue.

Now you may not agree with him that this is "the most important issue," but I don't see how anyone, even a die-hard junkie, can fail to see it as important.

One way to address this particular issue is to decriminalize those specific drugs that provide this revenue and handle them in some other way.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 11:05 AM   #348 (permalink)
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LOL.. because it's a dirty drug? What makes heroin and cocaine so different... because cocaine is a rich man's drug? Surely, we can clean up heroin and make it a nice "clean" low grade drug.

I support legalizing marijuana and taxing it (just like how you want to legalize cocaine and taxing it), but I don't support legalizing cocaine the same way you don't support legalizing heroin. We just have different opinions on "dirty drugs".
that's fine. we can agree to disagree You support legalization of marijuana only and I support legalization of marijuana and cocaine.... and change of drug policy toward to drug users. I'm not sure what's your issue with cocaine but I simply point out that many many cocaine users are high-profile (celebrities like Lindsay Lohan)... including former President Bush. It's treatable. It's not like once cocaine is legalized, they would snort them all 24/7 to death. They will do the drug until they hit the bottom (meaning - they will feel disgusted about themselves) and then they will seek for help.

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I agree with you about dispensing clean syringes.
sorry no. you cannot agree with me on this without agreeing that this Drug Policy is a failure. But I'll say something about this. There are many stores in NYC that sell bongs and pipes. obviously - we all know what bongs and pipes are going to be used for but hey - as long as you don't TALK about drug in the store, you can buy it. Now same thing for clinics (in a way) - They do not provide drugs. they will provide a clean, controlled environment with medical supervision and sterilized syringes. It's almost like "BYOD" (Bring Your Own Drug). Obviously - this will appall many people but hey - better than them sharing needles, spreading disease, and ODing to death somewhere, etc. etc., right? Remember - this is somebody's son/daughter and I'm sure the parents wish there's somebody there to help him/her in case of OD.

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There is only ONE reason why you want to legalize drugs, you want to be able to get revenue from the drug users themselves to pay for their own mess. And the only way to do this is to tax the drugs they use. Like I said, save money, screw the people.
no. no. and no. here's a correct reason - just by supporting current drug policy - you are screwing the people and the society.... and this country! how? criminalizing non-violent prisoners that costs us the money and jeopardizing police officers' lives over very minor drug wars and giving profits to drug cartels that fund terrorisms against USA. where you think where Al Queda gets the money?

Like I said - treat the drug users like patients, not criminals.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 11:06 AM   #349 (permalink)
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Yea, the key to solving the drug problem is to get to the root of the problem.
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I agree!
You agree, Babyblue? oh?? what do you propose then? spend more money on Drug War and harshly criminalize them all?
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Unread 03-22-2009, 11:08 AM   #350 (permalink)
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Maybe, but the financial aspect that bothers me the most is what my late wife's relative, who is a policeman, said, "Our enemies sell our kids drugs in order to funnel money out of the United States and use that same money to launch attacks against us."

He felt this is the aspect of the "drug war" that should be treated as the most important issue.

Now you may not agree with him that this is "the most important issue," but I don't see how anyone, even a die-hard junkie, can fail to see it as important.

One way to address this particular issue is to decriminalize those specific drugs that provide this revenue and handle them in some other way.
you explained it well quite succinctly.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:09 PM   #351 (permalink)
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sorry no. you cannot agree with me on this without agreeing that this Drug Policy is a failure.

I agree that this drug policy is a failure because I think ANY drug policies are failures. Picking a drug policy depends on what you want to sacrifice. In our drug policy, we sacrifice $$$. In yours, you sacrifice potential drug users and more innocents killed by drug induced mental state and other unforeseen things. Name a situation where a drug policy is a "success". Oh yea, that's right, there aren't any. Drugs weren't ALWAYS illegal, there is a reason why they became illegal in the first place.

I don't really care who uses cocaine. The synthetic nature of the drug renders it complicated to legalize it. You probably personally know people who use cocaine responsibly and it is clouding your judgment. I know people who have used cocaine recreationally and they function perfectly fine. I also know people who use acid and ecstasy responsibly. Does this mean we should legalize them too?
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:17 PM   #352 (permalink)
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I agree that this drug policy is a failure because I think ANY drug policies are failures. Picking a drug policy depends on what you want to sacrifice. In our drug policy, we sacrifice $$$. In yours, you sacrifice potential drug users and more innocents killed by drug induced mental state and other unforeseen things. Name a situation where a drug policy is a "success". Oh yea, that's right, there aren't any. Drugs weren't ALWAYS illegal, there is a reason why they became illegal in the first place.

I don't really care who uses cocaine. The synthetic nature of the drug renders it complicated to legalize it. You probably personally know people who use cocaine responsibly and it is clouding your judgment. I know people who have used cocaine recreationally and they function perfectly fine. I also know people who use acid and ecstasy responsibly. Does this mean we should legalize them too?
That's where you continue to fail to see the big picture. I'm sorry that you can't see it. That hindsight is why this is a security threat to USA and why American citizens can't get the help & resource that they need since a hefty amount of government resource and fund are being wasted on failed Drug War. I'm very sorry that you cannot see that many neighborhoods in USA are terrorized & controlled by drug gangs. I'm also very sorry that you cannot see how this drug war is corrupting our government (politicians/officers in drug lords' pocket).

Please research on how Al Queda gets its fund. Ever wonder how did drug cartels in Mexico get so powerful that Mexico had to dispatch thousand of army & officers to combat them? so scary that even Obama dispatched 1,000 National Guards to watch the Mexican border?

btw - I don't support criminalizing people who got caught with acid & ecstasy unless they're DUI. big difference. drug raid at some club to catch people with a few illegal pills in their pockets? please stop wasting my tax money, everybody's time, and officers' lives with some petty drug crimes.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:54 PM   #353 (permalink)
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Wish I can join your little naive world. Decriminalize drugs, and all of the bad people magically disappear.

Miami used to be such a crime-ridden city due to gangs/drug cartels and.. amazingly, it's a much better place to live now, compared to 30 years ago. How did that happen without legalization of drugs?
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Unread 03-22-2009, 12:59 PM   #354 (permalink)
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Also, you do realize that drug cartels would STILL make money even if cocaine is legalized? Do you honestly think we'd grow our own drugs? It's easier and cheaper to get it from South America....
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:01 PM   #355 (permalink)
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Wish I can join your little naive world. Decriminalize drugs, and all of the bad people magically disappear.

Miami used to be such a crime-ridden city due to gangs/drug cartels and.. amazingly, it's a much better place to live now, compared to 30 years ago. How did that happen without legalization of drugs?
if that's what you think that it'd be like 30 years ago... then I'm sorry for your naiveté. I've tried my best to show you the big picture that it will be regulated, taxed, and monitored... which didn't happen 30 years ago.. but to no avail.... you want to continue & support this hopeless Drug War which funds the terrorism and drains the government's fund & resource to help the American citizens.

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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:08 PM   #356 (permalink)
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if that's what you think that it'd be like 30 years ago... then I'm sorry for your naiveté. I've tried my best to show you the big picture that it will be regulated, taxed, and monitored... which didn't happen 30 years ago.. but to no avail.... you want to continue & support this hopeless Drug War which funds the terrorism and drains the government's fund & resource to help the American citizens.

Yes, if you make cocaine readily available, somehow the terrorism is going to stop and somehow the drug tax will offset the long term costs of drug users (rehab, crime, medical attention). And I'm the naive one?

What pisses me off is not your opinion, but rather that you call anyone who doesn't want to legalize all drugs a "supporter of terrorism and throwing away money that could have been used to help Americans."

LAME.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:14 PM   #357 (permalink)
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Also, you do realize that drug cartels would STILL make money even if cocaine is legalized? Do you honestly think we'd grow our own drugs? It's easier and cheaper to get it from South America....
drug cartels? well they wouldn't be called drug cartels if they're in a legitimated business. what about pharmacists? they're not called drug dealer? What about gun dealers? they're not called arms dealer (in a negative connotation)? Sorry but you seem confused. Think logically - which one do you think will make the most profits? drug cartels during Drug War or drug cartels under the legalization of drugs?

the world isn't perfect but one thing for sure -
1. MAJORITY of drug cartels & distributer within USA won't be motivated to purchase drug business because it's not profitable enough for them... thus will be pursuing something else.
2. less rampage of corruptions within government agencies
3. less drug gang wars which translates to less deaths of innocent lives & officers
4. less funds for terrorists
5. less spreading of HIV/HEP/etc.
6. less prisoners in our already over-crowdy prisoners meaning less money being spent on prisons and judiciary process
7. and MORE money & resource will finally be available for us

and yes I do think we will grow our own drugs. After all... people are already growing their own marijuana in their backyard...
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Last edited by Jiro; 03-22-2009 at 04:53 PM. Reason: word correction
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:15 PM   #358 (permalink)
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Yes, if you make cocaine readily available, somehow the terrorism is going to stop and somehow the drug tax will offset the long term costs of drug users (rehab, crime, medical attention). And I'm the naive one?

What pisses me off is not your opinion, but rather that you call anyone who doesn't want to legalize all drugs a "supporter of terrorism and throwing away money that could have been used to help Americans."

LAME.
yep.... naive.... because of your reasoning above. yep.... You make it sound so simple....

btw - i never said terrorism will be stopped just cuz we legalize drug. it doesn't work like that. yep... you just proved how naive you are. I used to be like you. I was bent on keeping all drugs illegal. It's ok - you'll understand when you get older.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:36 PM   #359 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daredevel7 View Post

I agree that this drug policy is a failure because I think ANY drug policies are failures. Picking a drug policy depends on what you want to sacrifice.

In our drug policy, we sacrifice $$$.

In yours, you sacrifice potential drug users and more innocents killed by drug induced mental state and other unforeseen things.

.
We know how to solve the drug problem. The communist government in China did it quickly, easily, and cheaply. They drug every drug addict out into the street and killed them, sometimes entire families.

Finding an answer consistent with our views on human liberty is a bit more difficult.

One of those sacrifices is personal freedoms of the innocent.

Some age twenty something relatives of mine were dropping their cousins at their house in Sacramento. While they were sitting in the car some cops searched all of them and the car on the assumption a bunch of young people would not be sitting around in a car laughing and having fun unless they were all stoned out of their minds on something.
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Unread 03-22-2009, 01:44 PM   #360 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry View Post
We know how to solve the drug problem. The communist government in China did it quickly, easily, and cheaply. They drug every drug addict out into the street and killed them, sometimes entire families.

Finding an answer consistent with our views on human liberty is a bit more difficult.

One of those sacrifices is personal freedoms of the innocent.

Some age twenty something relatives of mine were dropping their cousins at their house in Sacramento. While they were sitting in the car some cops searched all of them and the car on the assumption a bunch of young people would not be sitting around in a car laughing and having fun unless they were all stoned out of their minds on something.
that's crazy!! but... at least they didn't waste trillions of dollars like us... they fix the problem by letting the problems kill them all.
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