Funny Thing About Rush Limbaugh - Page 11

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

Again. Holy shit dude!

Drug education and sex education is very important! Give the kids and adults the tools of knowledge.

Kids are constantly educated about the danger of alcohol and tabacco. The legal items than harm ones health.

You simply are blindsided.

So no.

You are willing to enable more people to drugs than our every day criminal.

so with all these lovely educations.... why are there continuing # of alcohol & tobacco abuses? ever wonder why did the Prohibition policy failed? I'm sorry but you are very blindsided by this issue... as the result of decades-long of brainwashing by pharmaceutical companies, lobbyists, and misguided politicians/voters.

and who said I am willing to enable more people to drugs? You still have not been able to answer my question that I have asked for MANY times - How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before? Like I said - all of your posts are nothing more than emotional, rhetorical hyperbole... exactly like abortionists. Abortion Ban = EPIC FAIL! Alcohol Ban = EPIC FAIL! now Drug Ban is next!

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 09:54 PM

**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Heroin: Heroin Overdose Deaths --- Multnomah County, Oregon, 1993--1999

I'm not sure why you're giving me this source. It disputed your theory and supported my statement.... your source just strengthened my post that it should be done in controlled environment.

from your source -

Quote:

Heroin users' responses to a companion's overdose reflected a strong desire to avoid contact with law enforcement and medical systems. Three fourths of respondents reported that they hesitated to call for emergency assistance for fear of being arrested. Many attempted to resuscitate overdosed companions on their own. Users also described leaving overdose victims in public places, hoping that they would be discovered and helped by others.

Several approaches may help to prevent HODDs. Improved public health surveillance should enable identification of risks and protective factors and help monitor the impact of interventions. Heroin use can be reduced by primary prevention of the initiation of drug use and substance abuse treatment (particularly methadone maintenance) for active users.

Other steps can be considered to reduce HODDs among users who cannot or will not stop injecting. Improving use and quality of emergency medical response and treatment can improve outcomes. Working with police to establish policies that persons reporting or suffering drug overdose are not subject to arrest could increase users' willingness to seek emergency assistance (9). Users can be counseled about the risks for heroin overdose and how to avoid them (1,9,10). Some programs train injecting-drug users and their partners in the use of naloxone, an opiate antagonist highly effective in reversing the effects of opiate overdose but that can induce withdrawal and requires medical supervision (1,9).

Implementing interventions to decrease heroin and other fatal drug overdoses will require partnerships among a range of groups and programs, including public health, substance abuse treatment, syringe exchange/community outreach programs, emergency medical services, and police and criminal justice departments. Planning and implementation should involve heroin users because their knowledge, skills, and social networks can help identify interventions and achieve acceptance of interventions among the drug users at risk for drug overdose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Legal Drugs: Overdose Death Rate Surges, Legal Drugs Are Mostly to Blame | DrugReporter | AlterNet

again.... your source strengthened my statement -

Quote:

"There hasn't been a big increase in heroin use," he said. "What's changed has been prescription opiate drug use. Oxycontin is probably a big part of the answer. The pharmaceutical companies have come up with good and highly useful versions of opioids, but they have also been diverted and used in illicit ways in epidemic fashion for the past 15 years."

But Krall also pointed the finger at the resort to mass imprisonment and forced treatment of drug offenders as a contributing factor. "What happens is that people who are opiate users go into prison or jail and they get off the drug, but when they come out and start using again, they use at the same levels as before, and they don't have the same kind of tolerance. We know that recent release from jail or prison is a big risk factor for overdose," he said.

"The last piece of the puzzle is drug treatment," Krall said. "Besides the tolerance problems for people who have been abstaining in treatment, there has been an increase in the use of methadone and buprenorphine, which is a good thing, but people are managing to overdose on those as well."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

As for the least dangerous drugs, I would say tobacco and marijuana. Yes they can kill (slowly that is) but they are less likely to kill OTHERS, especially when compared to alcohol.

kill slowly? Are you very very sure about that? Why don't you look at statistics of death tolls caused by alcohol & tobacco? and pregnancy defects? and the people they killed? Look it up.

btw - so far marijuana has killed 0 people. please do find me a disputing source that says otherwise

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 10:07 PM

Dispensers of Marijuana Find Relief in Policy Shift

Quote:

A day before, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. had said that the federal authorities would no longer take action against medical marijuana dispensaries if they were in compliance with state and local laws.

While 13 states, including California, have laws allowing medical use of marijuana, they had not been recognized by the federal government. One of Mr. Duncan’s two marijuana dispensaries was a target, in 2007, of one of the scores of raids involving medical marijuana that the Drug Enforcement Administration conducted in Los Angeles during the Bush administration.
......
The attorney general’s comments also indicated that the Justice Department would allocate greater resources for investigations of white-collar crime, including financial crime, and other enforcement areas that received less attention during the Bush administration.

“Attorney General Holder is saying something explicitly different from both Bush and Clinton,” Mr. Nadelmann said. “He’s saying that these medical marijuana laws are kosher by state law and we’re not going after those. He’s saying federal law doesn’t trump state laws on this.”

HALLELUJAH!!!! Finally - I'm seeing my tax money being put to BETTER use! Thank you Obama! Thank you for finally seeing the BIG picture and the EPIC FAIL of Drug War!

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 10:12 PM

Cop Calls To Legalize Drugs

Quote:

BC Police officer David Bratzer wants the provincial government to regulate drugs like it regulates alcohol

Cops like David Bratzer are a rare breed.

Think of the late Gil Puder. A distinguished Vancouver police officer, Puder called for an end to the war on drugs while he was in active service during the late 1990s and continued to do so despite threats of disciplinary action from his superiors.

Or the recently retired West Vancouver police chief Kash Heed. At one time, while he was still with the Vancouver police, Heed, according to Bratzer, also spoke about the legalization of drugs.

Bratzer has been with the Victoria police for only three years, and already the 31-year-old officer has stepped forward to question the basis of the country’s drug laws.

“As a police officer, you always want to help people, so it’s very frustrating to be a police officer and enforce laws that are not necessarily helpful,” Bratzer told the Georgia Straight by phone.

Last month, he addressed participants in a cannabis convention held at the University of Victoria, where he presented his proposals for a post-prohibition era.

Step one, he said, is to legalize all drugs. Step two is for the provincial government to regulate drugs in the same way it regulates alcohol. Step three, he continued, is to decide what to do with the “peace dividend” or the funds that government can save by stopping the war on drugs.

Bratzer also told participants at the convention, which was organized by the International Hempology 101 Society, that among the things guaranteed in a war-on-drugs regime is criminal activity. This comes from both drug users in need of money for a quick fix and organized-crime groups involved in the production and distribution of drugs, he said.

Coming out to speak about these things as a volunteer with Law Enforcement Against Prohibition—a Massachusetts-based group composed of current and former members of the police and justice communities—isn’t easy.

“It’s been mixed,” Bratzer said when asked about the reaction of his Victoria police colleagues. He stressed that his views are entirely his own and do not reflect the position of the police department.

He also has two older brothers who are with the Victoria police. “We have talked about it,” Bratzer said. “They understand that I have my own opinions and they respect that. They don’t necessarily agree with me but they respect my right to free speech.”

The Straight caught up with B.C. solicitor general John van Dongen earlier this month at a private screening of A Warrior’s Religion, a documentary dealing with gangs in the South Asian community. When asked about the prospects of legalization, van Dongen said: “That is a federal issue and certainly the Conservative government has made their position clear that they’re not going there.”

Where Canada’s war on drugs may lead to in the future worries Tony Smith, a retired 28-year veteran of the Vancouver Police Department and also a LEAP member.

In Mexico, Smith noted, drug cartels have grown so powerful with profits from the drug trade that they can either buy off police, judges, and politicians or kill them at will.

“What’s really the difference here and there?” Smith asked in a phone interview with the Straight.

In the U.S., according to Smith, there’s much talk about drug corruption among law enforcers. That may not be the case in Canada, but he warned that once it starts happening here, “you won’t know which policemen are under the pay of the drug people and which policemen aren’t” and “it’s a very thin line once you approach that point.”

Referring to the ongoing turf war among gangs here in the Lower Mainland, Smith noted that drug lords now don’t seem to care about “what level of violence they’re using amongst themselves”.

What if, Smith asked, somebody comes “stepping out of the line and thinks, ‘Well, you know, screw it. I’m in a bit of a problem here. I’ll just take out the policeman or the judge or whatever.’ And once that occurs, then we’ll have total anarchy.”

The war on drugs
> Share of enforcement-related activities in Canada’s drug strategy: 75 percent
> Share of drug-related criminal charges in Canadian courts in 2002: 23 percent
> Cost associated with drug cases before the courts in 2002: $330 million
> Policing costs for drug enforcement in 2002: $1.43 billion
> Correctional-service costs associated with drugs in 2002: $573 million
> Canadians reporting having used illicit drugs during their life in 1994: 28.5 percent
> Canadians reporting illicit-drug use during their life in 2004: 45 percent

Source: “Canada’s 2003 renewed drug strategy—an evidence-based review”, published in the HIV/AIDS Policy and Law Review’s December 2006 edition

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Marijuana Treatment: What the Feds Won’t Tell You

Quote:

For years federal officials have been trying to scare Americans, especially parents, into believing that marijuana is dangerously addictive. Former drug czar John Walters loved to deploy frightening statistics, as when he told the Cincinnati Post in 2005, “Nationwide, the number of teens seeking treatment for marijuana abuse or dependency was higher than for all illegal drugs combined.”

But the latest federal report on drug treatment admissions, released this week, shows that the majority of those in treatment for alleged marijuana abuse or dependence didn’t seek treatment at all: They were forced into it.

According to the new report, which covers 2007 admissions, only 14.8% of marijuana treatment admissions involved people of any age checking themselves in to get help. That compares to 36.1% for smoked cocaine users and 58.1% for heroin users. And in contrast to those in treatment for these truly addictive drugs, 56.9% of marijuana treatment admissions were generated by the criminal justice system. That is, people — mostly young people — got arrested for marijuana, were offered treatment instead of jail and, understandably, chose treatment.

A few other interesting tidbits about those in treatment for supposed marijuana abuse or dependence: They’re disproportionately young, with over 40% aged 19 or under (as compared to 1.7% for cocaine and 2.7% for heroin). They’re more likely than those in treatment for other drugs to be employed, which is particularly startling given that so many are so young they’re still in school. And they’re far more likely than users of other drugs to be receiving outpatient treatment, with only 2.2% receiving inpatient detoxification, compared to 16.8% for smoked cocaine, 30% for alcohol, and 33% for heroin.

All in all, this is a portrait of a population that bears little or no resemblance to a group of addicts. The majority appears to be receiving drug abuse treatment they don’t need in order to satisfy a legal system gone mad.

Quote:

Major Substances of Abuse
Five substances accounted for 96 percent of all TEDS admissions in 2007: alcohol (40 percent); opiates (19 percent; primar-ily heroin); mar ijuana/hashish (16 percent); cocaine (13 percent); and stimulants (8 per-cent, primarily methamphetamine) [Table 1b].

all for more reasons why this Drug War is an EPIC FAIL! Now I rest my case.

To be clear - I don't do drugs or alcohol but I know enough that we should not be judgmental and hypocritical to drug users and I know enough that this Drug War is putting a huge tremendous strain on government & law enforcement agencies and even us but you don't even know it because they want you to believe that it's working.

Berry · 03-21-2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

[B]

all for more reasons why this Drug War is an EPIC FAIL!

.

Failure has never deterred Americans from anything.

Prisons don't work so we build more prisons and send more people to jail.

Raising qualifications for teachers did not improve the school system so they raised the qualifications for teachers, again, and again and again.

Borrowing money didn't get us out of debt so we borrowed more money.

One thing you have to say for us as a nation; we have no fear of failure.

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

Failure has never deterred Americans from anything.

Prisons don't work so we build more prisons and send more people to jail.

Raising qualifications for teachers did not improve the school system so they raised the qualifications for teachers, again, and again and again.

Borrowing money didn't get us out of debt so we borrowed more money.

One thing you have to say for us as a nation; we have no fear of failure.

good one

**Daredevel7** · 03-21-2009, 10:52 PM

Jiro, at this point, you're just throwing punches... at random people.

I dont even understand post #302.
1) You highlighted that heroin users are afraid to call the police. And you're saying "See? Thats why they died". You're forgetting one thing, THEY STILL GOT OVERDOSED. I thought the point was to reduce the risk of overdosing, not better chance of reviving them....? And we already have treatment centers....
2) Just because you red highlight the ones that "support" your argument, doesn't mean the rest of the paragraph does too. If you kept reading...

Quote:

"The last piece of the puzzle is drug treatment," Krall said. "Besides the tolerance problems for people who have been abstaining in treatment, there has been an increase in the use of methadone and buprenorphine, which is a good thing, but people are managing to overdose on those as well."

It all has to do with addiction/overdosing. Which is why most people are okay with marijuana, it is generally not addictive. Which is why most people are okay with tobacco because they don't overdose on tobacco, nor do they get mind altered from tobacco.

I understand the concept of legalizing drugs and regulating, but because of the synthetic, addictive, and potent nature of the drugs, that's where it gets complicated in the real world.

One thing for sure, even if legalizing drugs is better than this "war on drugs", I don't even think the public is ready to handle something as hard as cocaine. Why don't we try marijuana first? And see how it goes? Seems like marijuana will be legal soon anyway.

Babyblue · 03-21-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so with all these lovely educations.... why are there continuing # of alcohol & tobacco abuses? ever wonder why did the Prohibition policy failed? I'm sorry but you are very blindsided by this issue... as the result of decades-long of brainwashing by pharmaceutical companies, lobbyists, and misguided politicians/voters.

and who said I am willing to enable more people to drugs? You still have not been able to answer my question that I have asked for MANY times - How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before? Like I said - all of your posts are nothing more than emotional, rhetorical hyperbole... exactly like abortionists. Abortion Ban = EPIC FAIL! Alcohol Ban = EPIC FAIL! now Drug Ban is next!

You just admitted yourself. That sex education does not help. When sex is legal!!

You just admitted that alcohol treatment (A.A.) meetings does not help. When alcohol is legal!!

You just admitted tobacco treatment does not help. When it is legal!!

so again!!! I am not asking you this time... I am telling you legalizing these drugs you are speaking of is a TOTAL EPIC FAIL TO SOCIETY

You are more worried about the government rulings, than you are worried about people. So I suggest you vent your anger against the government towards a different, productive subject, than allowing illicit drugs to be legal.

People need discipline.. Certain people are stupid. (hence the laws we have)
To help control the stupid people..

legalizing drugs, is like legalizing all other inappropriate behaviors.

Sure!! Lets legalize other behaviors that is inappropriate. (being sarcastic) such as child molesters. legalizing it will curb the craving... It will make them not want it since it is legal!!(sarcastic mode is off) <<<< isn't that how you view it?? ( the drug issues ) legalizing it will not make people want it, crave it, abuse it??? Same thing you are speaking of....???

Even though you are claiming you are against it. You are surely contradicting what you are saying in this thread.

Just admit you are

at our government!! But making a big deal on legalizing drugs that can harm our society more than what it is. Is just idiotic!!

They're other ways you can debate how the government and (big wig) companies that are screwed up. Than by spewing out LEGALIZE COCAINE! BECAUSE IT IS NOT FAIR!!

again!!

You are surely tripping!! (beginning to wonder here)

As if society don't have enough to deal with.

Hear Again · 03-21-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

You just admitted yourself. That sex education does not help. When sex is legal!!

You just admitted that alcohol treatment (A.A.) meetings does not help. When alcohol is legal!!

You just admitted tobacco treatment does not help. When it is legal!!

so again!!! I am not asking you this time... I am telling you legalizing these drugs you are speaking of is a TOTAL EPIC FAIL TO SOCIETY

You are more worried about the government rulings, than you are worried about people. So I suggest you vent your anger against the government towards a different, productive subject, than allowing illicit drugs to be legal.

People need discipline.. Certain people are stupid. (hence the laws we have)
To help control the stupid people..

legalizing drugs, is like legalizing all other inappropriate behaviors.

Sure!! Lets legalize other behaviors that is inappropriate. (being sarcastic) such as child molesters. legalizing it will curb the craving... It will make them not want it since it is legal!!(sarcastic mode is off) <<<< isn't that how you view it?? ( the drug issues ) legalizing it will not make people want it, crave it, abuse it??? Same thing you are speaking of....???

Even though you are claiming you are against it. You are surely contradicting what you are saying in this thread.

Just admit you are

at our government!! But making a big deal on legalizing drugs that can harm our society more than what it is. Is just idiotic!!

They're other ways you can debate how the government and (big wig) companies that are screwed up. Than by spewing out LEGALIZE COCAINE! BECAUSE IT IS NOT FAIR!!

again!!

You are surely tripping!! (beginning to wonder here)

As if society don't have enough to deal with.

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

You just admitted yourself. That sex education does not help. When sex is legal!!

You just admitted that alcohol treatment (A.A.) meetings does not help. When alcohol is legal!!

You just admitted tobacco treatment does not help. When it is legal!!

so again!!! I am not asking you this time... I am telling you legalizing these drugs you are speaking of is a TOTAL EPIC FAIL TO SOCIETY

You are more worried about the government rulings, than you are worried about people. So I suggest you vent your anger against the government towards a different, productive subject, than allowing illicit drugs to be legal.

People need discipline.. Certain people are stupid. (hence the laws we have)
To help control the stupid people..

legalizing drugs, is like legalizing all other inappropriate behaviors.

Sure!! Lets legalize other behaviors that is inappropriate. (being sarcastic) such as child molesters. legalizing it will curb the craving... It will make them not want it since it is legal!!(sarcastic mode is off) <<<< isn't that how you view it?? ( the drug issues ) legalizing it will not make people want it, crave it, abuse it??? Same thing you are speaking of....???

Even though you are claiming you are against it. You are surely contradicting what you are saying in this thread.

Just admit you are

at our government!! But making a big deal on legalizing drugs that can harm our society more than what it is. Is just idiotic!!

They're other ways you can debate how the government and (big wig) companies that are screwed up. Than by spewing out LEGALIZE COCAINE! BECAUSE IT IS NOT FAIR!!

again!!

You are surely tripping!! (beginning to wonder here)

As if society don't have enough to deal with.

see post #238.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

government? not at all. it's the working of pharmaceutical company lobbyists and misguided voters pressing the government to do it. more and more Law Enforcement Officers are hating this drug war. Who the hell wanna die from a routine traffic stop just because the driver didn't want to go to jail over some tiny bag of drug?????????

I speak with logical mind. This drug war does not FINANCIALLY & ECONOMICALLY & SOCIALLY make sense! if you have any better idea, lemme know! Our current drug war is putting a tremendous strain on government and I know they want to end it but they can't because of you voters.

There will ALWAYS be drug users and all kinds. The best we can do for them is provide them with education and treatment centers. Did I say the sex education fail? No... I clearly said the BAN POLICY failed (for both abortion and alcohol)! The reason why I want the drug war to end is because this will BENEFIT the people because the government will FINALLY have enough resource and money to HELP us.

Please point out where in my post did I said that the A.A. & Tobacco treatments did not work. Your argument is an EPIC FAIL!

For the 10000th (or whatever) times - you still have not answered my simple question!!! How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?

**Daredevel7** · 03-21-2009, 11:22 PM

Jiro and Doug,

I am curious about what you think of this:
Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization, Fact 6

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Jiro, at this point, you're just throwing punches... at random people.

to be more specific - it's just you and BabyBlues. You are just throwing out a common misconceptions of drugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I dont even understand post #302.
1) You highlighted that heroin users are afraid to call the police. And you're saying "See? Thats why they died". You're forgetting one thing, THEY STILL GOT OVERDOSED. I thought the point was to reduce the risk of overdosing, not better chance of reviving them....? And we already have treatment centers....
2) Just because you red highlight the ones that "support" your argument, doesn't mean the rest of the paragraph does too. If you kept reading...

Did you even read the whole thing??? It had 2 arguments - yours and mine. In the end - it supported my argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

It all has to do with addiction/overdosing. Which is why most people are okay with marijuana, it is generally not addictive. Which is why most people are okay with tobacco because they don't overdose on tobacco, nor do they get mind altered from tobacco.

I understand the concept of legalizing drugs and regulating, but because of the synthetic, addictive, and potent nature of the drugs, that's where it gets complicated in the real world.

One thing for sure, even if legalizing drugs is better than this "war on drugs", I don't even think the public is ready to handle something as hard as cocaine. Why don't we try marijuana first? And see how it goes? Seems like marijuana will be legal soon anyway.

sure! why not? it's a good start... to show the public that Drug War is an EPIC FAIL! btw - you continue to forget that cocaine is mostly the RICH PEOPLE'S drug... not general public. that's why our penal system punishes the crack users more harshly than cocaine users

Berry · 03-21-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

People need discipline.. Certain people are stupid. (hence the laws we have)
To help control the stupid people..

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

exactly... anybody who supported such ideal like BabyBlue is a supporter of Fascism aka Police State. Now that is a Domestic Dissent! sic'em, DD Dog!

**Daredevel7** · 03-21-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Did you even read the whole thing??? It had 2 arguments - yours and mine. In the end - it supported my argument.

?!

Sure it did, Jiro, sure it did. *pat pat*

**Jiro** · 03-21-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Jiro and Doug,

I am curious about what you think of this:
Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization, Fact 6

you're asking us this? Didn't you read ANY of our posts? They're forgetting ONE BIG thing - regulation of drugs! They're operating on assumption that it would be unregulated... and they even used the info from 19th century!! It's very clear - they had POOR regulation

Beside... why should I listen to an agency whose sole mission is to destroy drugs? Doesn't it ever occur to you that it's heavily biased and misleading?

nice try but an EPIC FAIL!

Viewpoint: Legalization of Drugs

Quote:

People are often shocked to find that I strongly oppose the war on drugs. I lost my older brother to a heroin overdose in 1994. He dealt with severe depression, and drugs became his escape. My brother was treated as a criminal, and his disease should have been dealt with as an illness. If he'd been treated better then, maybe he would still be alive today. Instead of putting taxpayer money into the war on drugs, let's put it into research, education, and rehabilitation. When something is broken, shouldn't it be fixed? Isn't that the American way?

Joshua Kessler
Los Angeles

If we were a free society, people would be allowed to use any drug they wanted. If we were a compassionate society, we would put people with drug problems in rehab, not in prison. But we are neither a free nor a compassionate society. We are a moralistic one. So our response to the problem is predictably stupid.
Stephen Van
Eck Rushville, Pa.

Drugs are not good or bad. Drugs are drugs, which humans have used to help or hurt themselves and others forever. At some point, government cannot afford to be a "superparent" and instead should treat its citizens like adults who must make their own life choices and live with the consequences.
Neil Hamilton
Stockton, Calif.

As a casualty of the war on drugs, I find it interesting that Lee Brown cites "loss of productivity and employment...the breakdown of families, and the degeneration of drug-inflicted neighborhoods" as "consequences of drugs." Drugs did not hinder my productivity or adversely affect my family or other social relationships when I was using. But the laws that have effectuated my incarceration have definitely had a negative effect on both. Drugs are only a minor problem compared with prohibitionist policies, which keep drug prices so artificially high, and social alienation, which keeps drug users from developing stable social relationships and from holding jobs.
Lincoln L. Nielson
Caribou County Jail Soda Springs, Idaho

The unintended economic, political, and security consequences of the war on drugs in developing countries have been devastating. As we learned to our chagrin under Prohibition, it is the criminalization of addictive substances itself that creates such an enormous profit margin, attracting some of the worst forms of organized crime. The difference with illicit drugs is that these consequences have largely moved overseas. When our efforts to cut production and interdict transport succeed, prices in producing countries rise, providing additional incentives to grow the stuff. The drug cartels thrive on poverty, political instability, and chaos and frequently make alliances with terrorist groups that do the same.
Evan Scott
Thomas Bethesda, Md.

Why can't we have a compromise? Legalize just marijuana. It's really no worse than alcohol. It's easier to educate and get people off of compared with the addictive drugs. The majority of people, myself included, started off smoking pot but over the years grew out of it. As I got older and got married and as my responsibilities grew, I started smoking less and less until I just didn't smoke anymore. That seems to be a pretty typical progression. Take all the money used in fuel, equipment, technology, manpower, the legal system, and the cost of incarceration used just for the marijuana portion of the war on drugs, and combine that with the tax from the sale of marijuana, and you would have one big pile of cash to use toward fighting the hard-core drugs by providing additional resources, prevention programs, and medical help for the ones who need it.
Michael Castleberry
Parker, Colo.

We legalize pharmaceutical drugs aimed at treating illnesses that carry risks of crippling adverse reactions to the point of terminal complications, yet we won't let citizens smoke a joint in peace? All drugs require moderation, though one of the most highly stigmatized illegal drugs requires far less than the buffets you'll find in our legally prescribed pill bottles.
Christina L. Nastav
Ocala, Fla.

Why We Can't Legalize Drugs

Quote:

We can't legalize drugs - despite political, economic, even survival pressures to do so - because of deep underlying American mindsets against drugs, the two primary ones being that we believe continuing drug use is, or causes, a disease, and that parents can't bear to imagine their kids taking drugs. As to the disease mindset, is is maintained and promoted by both pro- and anti-legalization proponents.
....
Two incurable American prejudices rule out the idea that changing the legal status of drugs can impact an increasingly out-of-control world drug trade.

1. Drug use is an uncontrollable disease. In one striking way, opponents to American drug laws and defenders maintain the same idea -- drug use is a disease. For reformers, this supports the idea that users should be treated, and not imprisoned. This is behind former Senator Biden's introduction of the "Recognizing Addiction as a Disease Act of 2007," which states: "Addiction is a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences. It is considered a brain disease because drugs change the brain's structure. . . (as) seen in people who abuse drugs. . ."

2. Kids should never take drugs. Discussing drugs in response to the Mexican-American crisis today, Joe Scarborough introduced the idea of legalizing marijuana on MCNBC's Morning Joe show. Dr. Nancy Snyderman, NBC's medical expert and a cohost on the show, quickly and decisively answered, "No. Marijuana makes you dumb. It's plain and simple: I don't want my kids smoking dope" -- even though the large majority of teens will take drugs, drink illicitly, and be prescribed psychoactive medications.

And, so, illegal drug use extends endlessly on the horizon in front of us.

**Daredevel7** · 03-21-2009, 11:50 PM

I forgot to ask you one thing. Are you for legalizing heroin?

**Jiro** · 03-22-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

?!

Sure it did, Jiro, sure it did. *pat pat*

I guess you need a help to point out why it supported my arguments? Let us begin... and pay attention <tapping ruler on desk>

source you provided for me - Heroin Overdose Deaths --- Multnomah County, Oregon, 1993--1999. It began with basic stats and background... that supported your argument regarding heroin OD deaths. and then its conclusion part called Editorial Note supported my argument saying that intervention and improved public health surveillance are needed because our current handling of drug war is ineffective and detrimental because it contributed to OD deaths.

Quote:

Other steps can be considered to reduce HODDs among users who cannot or will not stop injecting. Improving use and quality of emergency medical response and treatment can improve outcomes. Working with police to establish policies that persons reporting or suffering drug overdose are not subject to arrest could increase users' willingness to seek emergency assistance (9). Users can be counseled about the risks for heroin overdose and how to avoid them (1,9,10). Some programs train injecting-drug users and their partners in the use of naloxone, an opiate antagonist highly effective in reversing the effects of opiate overdose but that can induce withdrawal and requires medical supervision (1,9).

Implementing interventions to decrease heroin and other fatal drug overdoses will require partnerships among a range of groups and programs, including public health, substance abuse treatment, syringe exchange/community outreach programs, emergency medical services, and police and criminal justice departments. Planning and implementation should involve heroin users because their knowledge, skills, and social networks can help identify interventions and achieve acceptance of interventions among the drug users at risk for drug overdose.

now let us go to your other source that you provided for me - Overdose Death Rate Surges, Legal Drugs Are Mostly to Blame | DrugReporter | AlterNet. Same as above - it began with basic statistic and background. This is an interesting article because it includes CDC, public health officials, epidemiologists, "harm reductionists", sociologists, and drug policy critics. In the end - it supported my argument that better prevention and treatment programs are needed... meaning our drug enforcement policy are in dire need of change.

Quote:

"The last piece of the puzzle is drug treatment," Krall said. "Besides the tolerance problems for people who have been abstaining in treatment, there has been an increase in the use of methadone and buprenorphine, which is a good thing, but people are managing to overdose on those as well."

Harm reductionists also have to grapple with the changing face of drug overdoses. "We're used to dealing with injection drug users," McQuie admitted, "and nobody really has a good initiative for dealing with prescription drug users. In our lobbying meetings about the federal needle exchange funding ban, we've started to talk about this, specifically about getting naloxone out there."

But while the overdose epidemic weighs heavily on the movement, no one wants to spend money to bring the numbers down. "This is a very big issue, it's very present for harm reduction workers," said McQuie. "But we haven't done a lot of press on it because there is no funding for overdose prevention. We have a very good program in San Francisco to train residential hotel managers and drug users at needle exchanges. It's very cheap; it only cost $70,000, including naloxone. But we can't get funders interested in this. We write grants to do this sort of work around the state, and we never get any money."

"The drug czar's office argues that if you take away the potential consequences, in this case, a fatal overdose, you facilitate the use, but betting someone's life on that is just cruel and bizarre," snorted Bigg.

Despite the apparent low profile of drug policy reform groups, they, too, have been fighting on the overdose front. "We worked to pass groundbreaking overdose prevention bills in California and New Mexico," said Bill Piper, national affairs director for the Drug Policy Alliance. "We're working to advance overdose prevention bills in Maryland and New Jersey. We had a bill in 2006 in Congress that would have created a federal grant program for overdose prevention," he said, pointedly adding that not a single federal dollar goes to overdose prevention. "We've tried to introduce that in the new Congress but can't find someone to take a lead. To be frank, few politicians care about this issue. Their staff care even less."

A massive public education campaign is needed, said Piper, adding that DPA is working on a report on this very topic that should appear in a few weeks.

In the meantime, while politicians and drug war bureaucrats avert their gaze and deep-pocketed potential donors keep their purses tightly closed, while the nation worries about baseball players on steroids and teenagers smoking pot, the bodies pile up like cordwood.

do you understand better now why it supported my arguments?

**Jiro** · 03-22-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I forgot to ask you one thing. Are you for legalizing heroin?

I've answered that question twice already unless it's for somebody else. I'm not going to answer it again because this means you're not really serious about this issue and you're just throwing random punches because it's funny. I'm sorry but it's not really funny to me when hundred of lives are lost every single day due to drug and drug war. My thoughts are with Mexicans... they're still combating with American help against drug cartels.

Come back when you're being serious

Hear Again · 03-22-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

I forgot to ask you one thing. Are you for legalizing heroin?

I already asked Jiro that in an earlier post. In a roundabout way, he said he didn't support legalizing all drugs.

Hear Again · 03-22-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I've answered that question twice already unless it's for somebody else. I'm not going to answer it again because this means you're not really serious about this issue and you're just throwing random punches because it's funny. I'm sorry but it's not really funny to me when hundred of lives are lost every single day due to drug and drug war.

You say that hundreds of lives are lost every single day due to the drug war? What about the millions of lives that are lost from people who are drug addicts?

**Jiro** · 03-22-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

You say that hundreds of lives are lost every single day due to the drug war? What about the millions of lives that are lost from people who are drug addicts?

and what does that tell you? Million of lives that are lost to drugs are because of our failed drug policy, NOT DUE TO LEGALIZATION OF DRUGS. all for more reasons why we should emphasize on treatment programs and clinics (dispensing clean syringe and with medical supervision) for drug users...

**KarissaMann05** · 03-22-2009, 12:12 AM

I am not surpise that all drugs will legal someday... If in that case, then I would say meths are suppose to be legal, too.

How interesting when nobody will concern when it becomes legal and each story will cover up if it is a bad news. What they expect is... positive news that is base on any on-topic issue (drugs war, abortion, etc etc) that they want.

So I'm not and will not surpise when it happens all the time cos you don't know how many times that story is covered up. It is not matter what subject is about...

Oh well... =/
< /POV >

Hear Again · 03-22-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

and what does that tell you? Million of lives that are lost to drugs are because of our failed drug policy, NOT DUE TO LEGALIZATION OF DRUGS.

Babyblue · 03-22-2009, 12:24 AM

See!!

This Chart proves it!!

Jiro, You may throw your punches at me... But, you hit like a sissified domestic dissent!!

Illegal drugs are lower on the chart...... You want to know why?? Because it is illegal.

Legalizing the illicit drugs, will cause it to top off the chart, above alcohol!!

Again you do not care about society. You only care about getting your way!

I don't care how many punches you throw!!

I still think you are tripping!! majorly on something!

**Jiro** · 03-22-2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babyblue

See!!

This Chart proves it!!

Jiro, You may throw your punches at me... But, you hit like a sissified domestic dissent!!

Illegal drugs are lower on the chart...... You want to know why?? Because it is illegal.

Legalizing the illicit drugs, will cause it to top off the chart, above alcohol!!

Again you do not care about society. You only care about getting your way!

I don't care how many punches you throw!!

I still think you are tripping!! majorly on something!

that's it? the best you can give me is some scary assumptions and emotional rhetoric hyperbole??? You don't care because you know you already lost just like we already lost when the Drug War started.

btw - I posted that graph because it shows the FUTILITY of drug war.... not because it's "low just cuz of drug laws." That's completely fallacious and very one-side. and why do you say that I don't care about society? Do you know why I don't support Drug War? see my post #276 and Berry's post #306

Quote:

there you go... legalizing cocaine and marijuana DOES NOT "add more fuel" to the fire in terms of problem and deaths. The only thing it fueled is the profits for drug dealers and what's burning away is our tax money which can be used for many of our problems like education and health care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berry

Failure has never deterred Americans from anything.

Prisons don't work so we build more prisons and send more people to jail.

Raising qualifications for teachers did not improve the school system so they raised the qualifications for teachers, again, and again and again.

Borrowing money didn't get us out of debt so we borrowed more money.

One thing you have to say for us as a nation; we have no fear of failure.

why do you keep avoiding my question? I've answered all of your questions and now i think it's fair that you should answer mine.

How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?

**Daredevel7** · 03-22-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

do you understand better now why it supported my arguments?

Your argument is "legalize marijuana and cocaine"
They are saying "We need better prevention and intervention"

Those things are completely different. "Better prevention and intervention." can support ANY argument that calls for a change in the current drug policy.

**Daredevel7** · 03-22-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I've answered that question twice already unless it's for somebody else. I'm not going to answer it again because this means you're not really serious about this issue and you're just throwing random punches because it's funny. I'm sorry but it's not really funny to me when hundred of lives are lost every single day due to drug and drug war. My thoughts are with Mexicans... they're still combating with American help against drug cartels.

Come back when you're being serious

Random punches because its funny? I dont get it. What random punches?

Anyway, I asked if you were for legalizing heroin, and someone else said that you weren't for it. And if that is true, I'd like to know why.

Also, to answer your question before about "How is our current situation (regarding Drug War) ANY better than before?"

It isn't, but maybe this is the best as it gets.

I'm all for trying new things, but the problem with legalization of ALL drugs... is that if it doesn't work, and it indeed did make things worse, we'd have a LOT to deal with. Which is why it's much better to start with one....... the safest one.

Babyblue · 03-22-2009, 12:42 AM

Ignorance is a bliss "Jiro"

especially when you base your theory on one side.

You do not see the effect... You just see how it saves your tax money.

You do not see how the drugs affect people, and the people around them.

You are just looking at the $$$$ signs.

Which shows that you support the true failure of society.

I never claimed alcohol, or tobacco does not have an affect on people.

I just claimed and ask, why enable society to be allowed to be more self destructive? ( a question that you never answered)

As your Chart that you have posted above. It had the lowest rate.

I can only imagine illicit drug was legalized.

Sorry pal!!

You can bend it back and forth, twist and turn it.....

Still..... Your theory is a total....

how you say it?? OH YEAH!!

An EPIC FAIL

03-22-2009, 12:12 AM	#324 (permalink)
KarissaMann05 Premium Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 6,381	I am not surpise that all drugs will legal someday... If in that case, then I would say meths are suppose to be legal, too. How interesting when nobody will concern when it becomes legal and each story will cover up if it is a bad news. What they expect is... positive news that is base on any on-topic issue (drugs war, abortion, etc etc) that they want. So I'm not and will not surpise when it happens all the time cos you don't know how many times that story is covered up. It is not matter what subject is about... Oh well... =/ < /POV > __________________ "Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

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03-21-2009, 11:22 PM	#312 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4,341	Jiro and Doug, I am curious about what you think of this: Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization, Fact 6

03-21-2009, 11:50 PM	#318 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 4,341	I forgot to ask you one thing. Are you for legalizing heroin?

03-22-2009, 12:24 AM	#326 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 12,001	See!! This Chart proves it!! Jiro, You may throw your punches at me... But, you hit like a sissified domestic dissent!! Illegal drugs are lower on the chart...... You want to know why?? Because it is illegal. Legalizing the illicit drugs, will cause it to top off the chart, above alcohol!! Again you do not care about society. You only care about getting your way! I don't care how many punches you throw!! I still think you are tripping!! majorly on something!

03-22-2009, 12:42 AM	#330 (permalink)
Babyblue Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 12,001	Ignorance is a bliss "Jiro" especially when you base your theory on one side. You do not see the effect... You just see how it saves your tax money. You do not see how the drugs affect people, and the people around them. You are just looking at the $$$$ signs. Which shows that you support the true failure of society. I never claimed alcohol, or tobacco does not have an affect on people. I just claimed and ask, why enable society to be allowed to be more self destructive? ( a question that you never answered) As your Chart that you have posted above. It had the lowest rate. I can only imagine illicit drug was legalized. Sorry pal!! You can bend it back and forth, twist and turn it..... Still..... Your theory is a total.... how you say it?? OH YEAH!! An EPIC FAIL