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Unread 02-23-2009, 03:09 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
sorry but Obama Administration whom you adore so much does not agree with your view. It's not my opinion. It's not my word. It's Obama's word against you.

btw - I'm sorry but I don't see Jillio complaining that I'm belittling her. it's your opinion if you think my tone is belittling. You need to stop with that whining because political debate is not a pretty business. Stay out of kitchen if it's too hot for you.

SORRY!
you misinterpreted my post. I show the definition of agreement to disagreement because you ASKED me at other thread about "agreement to disagreement" issues. I showed the example why I said that your posts is not form of agreement to disagreement but belittle when you use those word "you are wrong.... You donīt understand...."
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Unread 02-23-2009, 03:09 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Your interpretation of my words is way off. I gave you one sentence; you took 2 paragraphs in some misguided attempt to add the meaning you wanted that one sentence to have. Try simply reading the one sentence, rather than attempting to add to it, and then trying to attribute your interpretation to me.
then why don't you enlighten us? See your posts below -

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Denial is a wonderful thing.
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Oh, no, Jiro. Of course the Pentagon wouldn't lie.
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Unread 02-23-2009, 03:14 PM   #63 (permalink)
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then why don't you enlighten us? See your posts below -
Both of those sentences are self explanatory. Or do you have difficulty recognizing sarcasm when you see it?
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Unread 02-25-2009, 08:28 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I watched the film "The road to Guantanamo" yesterday.

Humane? *shake my head sadly*

I'm sure some of you know from my posts at other threads that I read former German-Turkish detainee Murat's book. I bidded another book from other former detainee in Ebay last week and wait for get a book. Hopefully, the book will arrive by today.

The movie, I saw yesterday is an exact what and how German-Turkish Kurat described in his book, also Aussie David Hick as well.


If you are interesting to hire or buy DVD "The road to Guantanamo"...

Amazon.com: The Road to Guantanamo: Riz Ahmed, Farhad Harun, Shahid Iqbal, Waqar Siddiqui, Afran Usman, Sher Khan, Jason Salkey, Jacob Gaffney, Mark Holden, Duane Henry, William Meredith, Payman Bina, Marcel Zyskind, Mat Whitecross, Michael Winterbot Amazon.com: The Road to Guantanamo: Riz Ahmed, Farhad Harun, Shahid Iqbal, Waqar Siddiqui, Afran Usman, Sher Khan, Jason Salkey, Jacob Gaffney, Mark Holden, Duane Henry, William Meredith, Payman Bina, Marcel Zyskind, Mat Whitecross, Michael Winterbot

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Unread 02-26-2009, 12:19 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liebling:-))) View Post
I watched the film "The road to Guantanamo" yesterday.

Humane? *shake my head sadly*

I'm sure some of you know from my posts at other threads that I read former German-Turkish detainee Murat's book. I bidded another book from other former detainee in Ebay last week and wait for get a book. Hopefully, the book will arrive by today.

The movie, I saw yesterday is an exact what and how German-Turkish Kurat described in his book, also Aussie David Hick as well.

If you are interesting to hire or buy DVD "The road to Guantanamo"...

Amazon.com: The Road to Guantanamo: Riz Ahmed, Farhad Harun, Shahid Iqbal, Waqar Siddiqui, Afran Usman, Sher Khan, Jason Salkey, Jacob Gaffney, Mark Holden, Duane Henry, William Meredith, Payman Bina, Marcel Zyskind, Mat Whitecross, Michael Winterbot

You have to remember that this movie is overly DRAMATIZED. It is not largely accurate. Beside - humane? why ? Go to any prison in USA or anywhere in the world especially China, Mexico, and Siberia and you will hear many stories about the prisoner being beat, raped, killed on daily basis anyway. but one major difference - Gitmo Camp aka Detention Center is very CONTROLLED environment however what comes with the territory is an "aggressive" enforcement by guards in order to maintain order.
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Unread 02-26-2009, 12:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Shindler's List was a docudrama, as well. It was very accurate.
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Unread 02-26-2009, 02:19 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Shindler's List was a docudrama, as well. It was very accurate.
that movie actually made me . I admit it. REAL MEN CRY TOO, YOU KNOW? Unfortunately - movies nowadays are nothing like Schindler's List masterpiece & quality.
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Unread 02-26-2009, 02:24 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Shindler's List was a docudrama, as well. It was very accurate.
Yes, I own 2 DVD Schindler´s list and The pianist... It´s really good one and very reliable one... That´s man Oskar Schlindler was really good heart...

Did you know about the movie "The pianist" ?
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Unread 02-26-2009, 02:28 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Yes, I own 2 DVD Schindlerīs list and The pianist... Itīs really good one and very reliable one... Thatīs man Oskar Schlindler was really good heart...

Did you know about the movie "The pianist" ?
The Pianist was very good too.
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Unread 02-26-2009, 02:51 PM   #70 (permalink)
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You have to remember that this movie is overly DRAMATIZED. It is not largely accurate. Beside - humane? why ? Go to any prison in USA or anywhere in the world especially China, Mexico, and Siberia and you will hear many stories about the prisoner being beat, raped, killed on daily basis anyway. but one major difference - Gitmo Camp aka Detention Center is very CONTROLLED environment however what comes with the territory is an "aggressive" enforcement by guards in order to maintain order.
The movie I saw at 2 days ago, is film and mix with document... it´s almost similar as The Schlinder list like what Jillio mentioned in her post. The descripton is similar from what I read Murat´s book... It seem pretty logical to me since collect a lot of TV interviews...

Yes, I am aware of their legal inhumanity treatment in different countries. I would get inhumanity treatment by them if I disown their rules and law like what we read Sinpagore´s law, culture and rules before we travelled there for holiday at 7 years ago like we did to Islamic countries as well. It´s my responsible to risk my life if I disown their law. I taught my boys to obey ANY culture, rules and law which is different as Germany. I already taught my boys about the USA´s law and legal death penatly, etc. and make sure that they should not sex with 16 or 17 years old girls then they will end to label as sex offender registery only if the parents of minor file the charge against legal age. I would say nothing IF inhumainity treatment in the USA is a legal like other countries but it´s illegal in the US justice system.

Anyway, about your post - US Government deny the Gitmo detainees´ expereince for being treat inhumanity in Gitmo camp look bad to the world.
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Unread 02-26-2009, 09:53 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Another view of the movie:

Quote:
The Road to Guantanamo

By James Bowman

Whatever may be the merits of Michael Winterbottom's Road to Guantanamo, and they are several, it is undoubtedly an effort to hinder and obstruct the Bush administration's war on terrorism. We have to understand this at the outset because that effort's success or lack of it will depend on the film's effectiveness at disguising the fact -- and it seems very effective to me. What it pretends to be about is the sad story of four young men of Pakistani descent from Tipton, near Birmingham, England. It is October of 2001, and Ruhel (Farhad Harun), Shafiq (Riz Ahmed), Asif (Arfan Usman) and Monir (Waqar Siddiqui) travel together from England to Pakistan because Asif's family has arranged a marriage for him there, a common occurrence in the Anglo-Pakistani community. On a whim, the four decide to take a side-trip to Afghanistan just in time to be caught up in the civil war between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, aided by elements of the U.S. armed forces. Monir disappears, never to be heard from again. Ruhel, Shafiq and Asif are identified as Taliban fighters and interned at Camp X-ray, Guantanamo.

There, they suffer hardships and harsh treatment amounting at times to what some would describe as torture. This includes isolation cells, loud noises and being in "stress positions"; there are also stray punches and slaps and, in one case, where one of the prisoners is supposed to be insane, a severe beating. At another point, an American guard is seen desecrating a Koran. Of course, we have only the men's own testimony that any of these things actually happened. But the film is straightforwardly a conduit for that testimony and makes no attempt to evaluate it or assess its reliability. It shows them bravely and defiantly enduring it all, always insisting on their innocence of any connections with the Taliban or terrorism until, slightly more than two years later, they are released for lack of any evidence that they were ever terrorist sympathizers.

Mr. Winterbottom (Wonderland, In This World, 9 Songs) is a talented film-maker and, co-directing here with Mat Whitecross, masks the propaganda beneath the compelling human story told by cross-cutting interviews with the three survivors, now inevitably "the Tipton three," and a running dramatization of their experiences in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Cuba. Every now and then, too, we cut away to glimpses of the larger war on terror in vignettes -- such as a speech by President Bush on Guantanamo in which he says that "one thing we do know: these are bad people" -- rendered deeply ironic by their context. In fact, Mr. Bush's announcement must have included some such unspoken qualification as "so far as we know" or "the overwhelming majority" and an understanding that rounding up terrorist suspects on the basis of the limited knowledge we are bound to have of organized terror operations is pretty much bound to sweep in some innocent along with the guilty.

That's if they are innocent. I must say that the three men's story sounds a bit thin to me. They were in Pakistan for a wedding and just decided one day to take a trip up to Afghanistan where they were "basically just chilling out"? They could hardly not have known that American warplanes were bombing the hell out of the place at the time, yet they just wanted to play tourist? Then, when they got scared and wanted to return to Pakistan, a sinister and unknown bus driver took them in the opposite direction, toward the front line. It all sounds just the tiniest bit fishy to me. But say they were innocent. The fact doesn't tell us anything about the hundreds of others caught in the same dragnet, let alone about whether or not the acts of terrorism that must have been prevented by their incarceration made it worthwhile to risk imprisoning the odd innocent man.

The film ignores all such questions because its purpose is to make as much as it can of the three innocents in order to suggest that the other internees are as likely to be innocent as they are. In other words, Mr. Winterbottom wants to say not just that it's unfortunate that the men were imprisoned at Guantanamo, or even that it was wrong for America, not knowing of their innocence, to imprison them. He means that it is wrong for America to imprison anyone, guilty or innocent, at Guantanamo -- which just happens to be the view of the increasingly vocal anti-war and anti-Bush left. Those who recognize that we are at war, and that there are dedicated terrorists looking for opportunities to kill innocent Americans, are likely to think differently. If we have good reasons for suspecting certain foreigners of plotting murder and mayhem against us, on what moral or prudential grounds are we told that we must do nothing but wait until they have killed more Americans -- by which time they will presumably have blown themselves up anyway?

At the critics' screening I attended in Washington, there were "peace" activists openly recruiting demonstrators against the Guantanamo prisons. Their presence only confirmed my impression that The Road to Guantanamo never bothered to make any pretense of being anything but propaganda. Like Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will -- or Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth or Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 -- it depends on the assumption that anyone who watches it will already be in sympathy with its aims. And the demographics of movie-going suggest that the assumption is pretty much correct. No need, then, to apologize for their blatant partisanship or make any attempt to be judicious or even-handed with their material. The Road to Guantanamois highly watchable, as we would expect from Mr. Winterbottom, and an absorbing tale if it were fictional. As it is, however, we cannot but be aware that the real-life subjects have an agenda, as does the film itself, which subtly alters our response to a human story that would otherwise be enthralling.
The American Spectator : The Road to Guantanamo
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Unread 02-26-2009, 09:59 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I would say nothing IF inhumainity treatment in the USA is a legal like other countries but it´s illegal in the US justice system.
as I said - I've already showed you substantial amount of proof that Gitmo Camp under Bush Administration was as according to Geneva Convention - an investigation done by Obama Administration. In translation - there's no inhumane or illegal treatment.

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Anyway, about your post - US Government deny the Gitmo detainees´ expereince for being treat inhumanity in Gitmo camp look bad to the world.
I see... You mean this? Exclusive: Lawyer says Guantanamo abuse worse since Obama
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Unread 02-27-2009, 09:28 AM   #73 (permalink)
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"If one was to use one's imagination, (one) could say that these traumatized, and for lack of a better word barbaric, guards were just basically trying to get their kicks in right now for fear that they won't be able to later," he said.He stressed the mistreatment did not appear to be directed from above, but was an initiative undertaken by frustrated U.S. army and navy jailers on the ground. It did not seem to be a reaction against the election of Obama, a Democrat who has pledged to close the prison camp within a year, but rather a realization that there was little time remaining before the last 241 detainees, all Muslim, are released.


From the link provided by Jiro.
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Unread 02-27-2009, 10:52 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Can anyone say that the lawyer for detainees would be unbiased, and that his clients would be truthful in their reports?
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Unread 02-27-2009, 10:55 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Can anyone say that the lawyer for detainees would be unbiased, and that his clients would be truthful in their reports?
Can anyone say that the Pentagon would be unbiased in their reports?

If you read all of the article, you will also see that his assessment is based on first hand observations, and not just client reports. As well as reports from the guards themselves.
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Unread 02-27-2009, 03:07 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Can anyone say that the Pentagon would be unbiased in their reports?

If you read all of the article, you will also see that his assessment is based on first hand observations, and not just client reports. As well as reports from the guards themselves.
can anyone tell me why did Obama Administration especially his OWN task force team concluded that Gitmo Camp is within Geneva Convention? and now you're telling me that under Obama Administration, he's incompetent to handle the Gitmo Camp since there are more "alleged abuses" ?
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Unread 02-27-2009, 03:15 PM   #77 (permalink)
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can anyone tell me why did Obama Administration especially his OWN task force team concluded that Gitmo Camp is within Geneva Convention? and now you're telling me that under Obama Administration, he's incompetent to handle the Gitmo Camp since there are more "alleged abuses" ?
Because of politics, pure and simple.
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Unread 02-27-2009, 03:18 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Because of politics, pure and simple.
I guess what Obama has been preaching for so long is now all lies.... typical politician
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Unread 02-27-2009, 10:32 PM   #79 (permalink)
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of course, he is a left-wing liberal...

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I guess what Obama has been preaching for so long is now all lies.... typical politician
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Unread 02-28-2009, 05:57 AM   #80 (permalink)
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of course, he is a left-wing liberal...
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Unread 02-28-2009, 07:08 AM   #81 (permalink)
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I guess what Obama has been preaching for so long is now all lies.... typical politician
Obama has direct control over himself alone.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 07:10 AM   #82 (permalink)
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of course, he is a left-wing liberal...
Actually, he's not. But if you want to look at truthfulness and openness in politics, the conservatives will provide you a wonderful example of not being truthful and honest.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 07:10 AM   #83 (permalink)
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can anyone tell me why did Obama Administration especially his OWN task force team concluded that Gitmo Camp is within Geneva Convention? and now you're telling me that under Obama Administration, he's incompetent to handle the Gitmo Camp since there are more "alleged abuses" ?
Where exactly, did I say that?
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Unread 02-28-2009, 01:59 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Actually, he's not. But if you want to look at truthfulness and openness in politics, the conservatives will provide you a wonderful example of not being truthful and honest.
No, Obama is more leaning to liberal, that which is true.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 02:00 PM   #85 (permalink)
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No, Obama is more leaning to liberal, that which is true.
Liberal leanings are quite different than the unequivocal statement "He is a left wing liberal."
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Unread 02-28-2009, 02:01 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Liberal leanings are quite different than the unequivocal statement "He is a left wing liberal."
Ok, I think both of them are related but oh well.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 03:28 PM   #87 (permalink)
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This is James Bowmanīs opinion.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 04:01 PM   #88 (permalink)
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[quote]
Quote:
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as I said - I've already showed you substantial amount of proof that Gitmo Camp under Bush Administration was as according to Geneva Convention - an investigation done by Obama Administration. In translation - there's no inhumane or illegal treatment.
But Obama´s decision to close Gitmo Camp within a year remain unchanged.

Pengton only doing to defend Bush & Co. when they KNEW that Bush & Co. admitted for authorize the form of torture in Gitmo Camp in their interviews with the medias? humane?

Bush confesses to war crimes






http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...itary_0604.pdf - unfortunlately some sentences are censored.




for post those link here.
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Unread 02-28-2009, 04:03 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Are you against liberal? If yes, why?
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Unread 03-04-2009, 03:44 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Leahy calls for 'truth commission' on torture

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Senate Judiciary Committee chairman called Wednesday for the establishment of a nonpartisan "commission of inquiry" to investigate allegations of wrongdoing against former Bush administration officials in their prosecution of the war on terrorism.


Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy has called for a commission on torture allegations.

Nothing "did more to damage America's place in the world than the revelation that our great nation stretched the law and the bounds of executive power to authorize torture and cruel treatment," Sen. Patrick Leahy said at the start of a committee hearing.

American "detention policies and practices from Guantanamo Bay [Cuba] and Abu Ghraib [Iraq] have seriously eroded fundamental American principles of the rule of law," he added.

Leahy, D-Vermont, called for the "truth commission" to have a "targeted mandate" focusing on issues of national security and executive power. He said it should look specifically at allegations of "questionable interrogation techniques," "extraordinary rendition" and the "executive override of laws."

He added that the commission should have the power to issue subpoenas and offer immunity to witnesses "in order to get to the whole truth."

Leahy refused to rule out of the possibility of prosecutions for perjury committed during the commission's hearings.

"To restore our moral leadership, we must acknowledge what was done in our name," he said. "We can't turn the page unless we first read the page. I do not want to see us in a case where we are lectured for mistakes we made by countries who themselves have some of the worst and [most] oppressive policies."

Leahy conceded, however, that the authority of any such commission would be significantly undercut without the cooperation of congressional Republicans.

The proposed commission is "not something to be imposed," he said. "Its potential is lost if we don't work together. ... We need to reach a mutual understanding of what went wrong and then learn from it."

President Obama said in February that he is willing to consider a plan to investigate allegations of wrongdoing against former Bush administration officials but is more interested in moving beyond the sharp political divide of the past eight years.

"Generally speaking, I'm more interested in looking forward than looking backwards," Obama said. The president said his administration would leave "no doubt" that the United States does not torture and follows the Geneva Conventions.

He added, however, that "if there are clear instances of wrongdoing, that people should be prosecuted just like any ordinary citizen."

Since taking office, Obama has ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention facility within a year, required adherence to the Army field manual's guidance on interrogation techniques and reinstated the presumption in favor of disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act.

Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter, the Judiciary Committee's ranking Republican, questioned the need for an independent commission.

There is no need, he said, to "go off helter skelter" on a "fishing expedition."

"We ought to follow a regular order here. You have a Department of Justice, which is fully capable of doing an investigation. They're not going to pull any punches on the prior administration."

Specter also said, however, that he "would not mind looking backward if there's a reason to do so."

"If we have evidence of torture, torture's a violation of our law. Go after it," he said. "If there's reason to believe that [former administration] officials have knowingly given ... cover for things they know not to be right and sound, go after them."

Leahy calls for 'truth commission' on torture - CNN.com
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