UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

**Liebling:-)))** · 01-27-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture

The UN's "Special Rapporteur on Torture," Manfred Nowak, in a message recorded on January 20 for broadcast that evening on Germany's ZDF television, urged the United States to bring charges against former President George W. Bush and former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for torture and bad treatment of prisoners held at the U.S. detention facility in Guantanamo Bay. "Judicially speaking, the United States has a clear obligation" to bring proceedings against Bush and Rumsfeld, said Nowak.

Nowak asserted that because the United States has ratified the UN Convention on Torture, which states that "all means, particularly penal law" are to be used to bring proceedings against anyone violating the convention, then charges against the two American are justified. "We have all these documents that are now publicly available that prove that these methods of interrogation were intentionally ordered by Rumsfeld," said Nowak. "But obviously the highest authorities in the United States were aware of this."

A report in the Telegraph (UK) observed that when he was asked about the likelihood of legal action being brought against Bush and Rumsfeld, Nowak replied: "In principle yes. I think the evidence is on the table." He added that the question of whether "American law will recognize these forms of torture" was still at issue.

A bipartisan Senate report released on December 11 found Rumsfeld and other top Bush administration officials responsible for the abuse of detainees at Guantanamo. The Los Angeles Times noted on December 12, 2008 that the report directed its most pointed criticism at Rumsfeld's decision in December 2002 to authorize the use of harsh interrogation techniques at the Guantanamo Bay facility. The report described Rumsfeld's directive as "a direct cause for detainee abuse" at Guantanamo and concluded that it "influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques, including military working dogs, forced nudity and stress positions, in Afghanistan and Iraq."

Torture is illegal under U.S. law. The Bush administration claimed that its harsh interrogation techniques such as waterboarding are not torture and that it therefore did not break the law. But that claim could be challenged in the U.S. judicial system under our own laws without need to apply any UN conventions or treaties.

But bringing charges against Bush and Rumsfeld on the basis of a UN convention would be a major step toward further raising the stature of and empowering the world body. And that empowerment would include defining "toture" on the basis of the UN treaty.

An "Insider Report" in The New American magazine for June 19, 2000 observed that on May 15 of that year, the United Nations Committee against Torture, in its first ever report on human rights conditions in the United States, recommended that the U.S. government modify its behavior and fulfill its treaty obligations under the Convention against Torture. The panel urged the United States to prohibit the use of electro-shock stun belts and restraint chairs, claiming that they "almost invariably" violate the terms ratified in the Convention against Torture. The panel also expressed its concerns about what it perceived as the torture and mistreatment of prisoners by police and prison guards at maximum security prisons, including prisoner chain gangs and "excessively harsh" conditions. The panel also suggested that the United States make torture, as defined in the convention, a federal crime, thereby harmonizing U.S. law with international law.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/722

I saw on TV journal about US tortue, war issues, etc for weeks before and after 20th January quite a lot. It says that Bush was being warned last January 2003 that he and his bush adminstration may be prosecuted for war crimes under Geneva Convention..... Well Bush and co. choose to ignore the law to continue to do with torture, mistreatment, etc.

From saw on TV, I must say that I want to see Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney prosecuted because it's about justice for America and many countries around the world.

Discussion with agree to disagree is welcome...

**shel90** · 01-27-2009, 07:29 AM

Bush said that waterboarding isnt torture? Wow...

**Liebling:-)))** · 01-27-2009, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Bush said that waterboarding isnt torture? Wow...

Yes, it's not just Bush but Cheney as well. I feel sick with pain to learn that he defended waterboarding to the meida few days before 20th January that Guantanamo should stay open, waterboarding OK. Cheney admitted that he authorized torture against Guantanamo Detainees.

What a horrible...

**shel90** · 01-27-2009, 07:43 AM

I am wondering if it would do this country good if they get prosecuted. That would be embarrassing for the U.S. but if they are convicted of any crimes, then they should be punished.

Byrdie714 · 01-27-2009, 08:02 AM

I don't think it will happen.

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 09:04 AM

unfortunately, neither do i, byrdie.

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 09:06 AM

george w. bush doesn't seem to mind losing over 4,000 soldiers in iraq, so why should we be surprised that he doesn't consider waterboarding as torture?

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I saw on TV journal about US tortue, war issues, etc for weeks before and after 20th January quite a lot. It says that Bush was being warned last January 2003 that he and his bush adminstration may be prosecuted for war crimes under Geneva Convention...Well Bush and co. choose to ignore the law to continue to do with torture, mistreatment, etc.

From saw on TV, I must say that I want to see Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney prosecuted because it's about justice for America and many countries around the world.

Discussion with agree to disagree is welcome...

Wow! I bet that made your day!

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Bush said that waterboarding isnt torture? Wow...

Did you know that our own SEAL and Special Forces members are waterboarded as part of their training? It's not pleasant, for sure, but it's not torture.

**shel90** · 01-27-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Did you know that our own SEAL and Special Forces members are waterboarded as part of their training? It's not pleasant, for sure, but it's not torture.

The feeling of about to drown? For those who dont have training nor understanding of it, it can be torture.

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

The feeling of about to drown?

I said it wasn't pleasant.

However, there is a difference between the sensation of drowning, and actually drowning. Their lives were not at risk.

Quote:

For those who dont have training nor understanding of it, it can be torture.

Exactly. That's why our service members go thru the experience, so they'll know what to expect, and how to resist it. It's the same thing when they actually experience being gassed and other "unpleasantness." When you take out the element of the unknown, you can face it better.

**Jolie77** · 01-27-2009, 09:20 AM

Can someone explain what does waterboarding does? What's the purpose of waterboarding?

I think I have a pretty good idea what waterboarding is but I also wanted to see the bigger picture of this in order to get an understanding of this.

From what I see - It's like when someone pours the water on the victim's face to do a drowning effect? Is that correct?

**shel90** · 01-27-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I said it wasn't pleasant.

However, there is a difference between the sensation of drowning, and actually drowning. Their lives were not at risk.

Exactly. That's why our service members go thru the experience, so they'll know what to expect, and how to resist it. It's the same thing when they actually experience being gassed and other "unpleasantness." When you take out the element of the unknown, you can face it better.

But what's the purpose of using that technique on the prisoners? To make them suffer or to get info from them?

**Liebling:-)))** · 01-27-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

Can someone explain what does waterboarding does? What's the purpose of waterboarding?

I think I have a pretty good idea what waterboarding is but I also wanted to see the bigger picture of this in order to get an understanding of this.

From what I see - It's like when someone pours the water on the victim's face to do a drowning effect? Is that correct?

Yes, the description of link explains better...

http://hbergman.files.wordpress.com/...erboarding.jpg

**shel90** · 01-27-2009, 09:25 AM

I emailed my husband asking his opinion on waterboarding and if it was a form of torture since he is a former Marine.

This is his response..

Yes, imaging being strapped down so u can't be moved and having someone pour a bottle of water on ur face.

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

But what's the purpose of using that technique on the prisoners? To make them suffer or to get info from them?

To get information from them, especially when it's needed quickly.

**Jolie77** · 01-27-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Yes, the description of link explains better...

http://hbergman.files.wordpress.com/...erboarding.jpg

Ah, Thanks! That is what I thought.

It seems like it is a harsh torture. I was imaging that if I were to be the victim, I know I would not like it and wouldn't be pleased about it either.

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:37 AM

According to the UN, this is their definition of torture:

"For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
UN Convention Against Torture

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

From what I see - It's like when someone pours the water on the victim's face to do a drowning effect? Is that correct?

yes.

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Did you know that our own SEAL and Special Forces members are waterboarded as part of their training? It's not pleasant, for sure, but it's not torture.

really? how long has this been going on, reba?

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

really? how long has this been going on, reba?

How long what? Do you mean special forces type training in general, or waterboarding specifically?

Byrdie714 · 01-27-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

According to the UN, this is their definition of torture:

"For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
UN Convention Against Torture

So therefore waterboarding falls under this....

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

How long what? Do you mean special forces type training in general, or waterboarding specifically?

i'm sorry, reba. i mean both. how long has waterboarding and special forces type training been going on?

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

So therefore waterboarding falls under this....

I'm not a lawyer; I don't even play one on TV, so I can't answer that.

I would like a clear explanation for this last line, "It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions." I wonder how far that can be stretched.

However, the other questions are, authority to prosecute sovereign nations, and then, jurisdiction.

**Jiro** · 01-27-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

i'm sorry, reba. i mean both. how long has waterboarding and special forces type training been going on?

yes they do go thru waterboarding as part of their training to overcome fear of water and water gag reflex because the part of job is swimming. people will panic when drowning. when one person in a group is drowning, he will grab other person and push him down to stay afloat. It happened to me.

virtually everybody has some fear of water and this training is designed to overcome it. my friend has done it.

PowerON · 01-27-2009, 10:06 AM

I thought you, germany woman, don't believe in the kind punishment. Huh?

**Reba** · 01-27-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

i'm sorry, reba. i mean both. how long has waterboarding and special forces type training been going on?

Types of waterboarding have been around since the Middle Ages.

Formal US special forces training started during WWII.

**Jiro** · 01-27-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

Can someone explain what does waterboarding does? What's the purpose of waterboarding?

I think I have a pretty good idea what waterboarding is but I also wanted to see the bigger picture of this in order to get an understanding of this.

From what I see - It's like when someone pours the water on the victim's face to do a drowning effect? Is that correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

But what's the purpose of using that technique on the prisoners? To make them suffer or to get info from them?

simple - to get the vital information that is the matter of life and death. imagine capturing senior-ranking terrorist who has knowledge of terrorist attack that can happen at any moment. obviously - he's not going to spit it out. obviously he's going to laugh at you - "you will pay!" and preach about infidels, injustice, etc.

so when hundreds, if not thousands, of lives are at stake.... certain torture procedure is performed without leaving permanent physical damage on individual... which is waterboarding.

**Jiro** · 01-27-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerON

I thought you, germany woman, don't believe in the kind punishment. Huh?

she doesn't.

Hear Again · 01-27-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Types of waterboarding have been around since the Middle Ages.

Formal US special forces training started during WWII.

reba.

01-27-2009, 07:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,504 Blog Entries: 3	Bush said that waterboarding isnt torture? Wow... __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

01-27-2009, 07:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,504 Blog Entries: 3	I am wondering if it would do this country good if they get prosecuted. That would be embarrassing for the U.S. but if they are convicted of any crimes, then they should be punished. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

01-27-2009, 09:20 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jolie77 Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kentucky, USA (The Bluegrass State) Posts: 8,514 Blog Entries: 1	Can someone explain what does waterboarding does? What's the purpose of waterboarding? I think I have a pretty good idea what waterboarding is but I also wanted to see the bigger picture of this in order to get an understanding of this. From what I see - It's like when someone pours the water on the victim's face to do a drowning effect? Is that correct? __________________ Isaiah 33:6 - "He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the Lord is the key to this treasure."

01-27-2009, 09:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
shel90 Audist are not welcome Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: A place where crabs are popular Posts: 40,504 Blog Entries: 3	I emailed my husband asking his opinion on waterboarding and if it was a form of torture since he is a former Marine. This is his response.. Yes, imaging being strapped down so u can't be moved and having someone pour a bottle of water on ur face. __________________ "Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it." --- Anonymous

01-27-2009, 10:06 AM	#26 (permalink)
PowerON Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 37.5, 126.9 Posts: 10,386 Blog Entries: 5	I thought you, germany woman, don't believe in the kind punishment. Huh? __________________ • [Illustrator.Blog-alloon.com] • Don't shoot me! I'm only blogger!

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01-27-2009, 08:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Byrdie714 Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8,927	I don't think it will happen.

01-27-2009, 09:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
Hear Again Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,122 Blog Entries: 6	unfortunately, neither do i, byrdie.

01-27-2009, 09:06 AM	#7 (permalink)
Hear Again Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,122 Blog Entries: 6	george w. bush doesn't seem to mind losing over 4,000 soldiers in iraq, so why should we be surprised that he doesn't consider waterboarding as torture?

01-27-2009, 09:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,531	According to the UN, this is their definition of torture: "For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions." UN Convention Against Torture

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