UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture - Page 9

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-06-2009, 04:06 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

YouTube - Frontal21: Accused of Torture?
This is probably the 7 minute German stream that Liebling watched.
There isn't anything that should be pointed out as a flaw in the whole video, as most of it is pure global speculation. There are no officials that speak for the newscast, it only uses existing albeit cut footage from previous documentations.

First of all, I

you for post positive here. I quote part of your post here to add something. I can't say anything about the video, you posted because I can't see the video here. I have to wait until I'm home from work then I will view the video and let you know either I watch it or not.

Quote:

Ok, moving onwards to summarize. Major point is, even the German video stated - Obama plans to move forward, instead of living in the past.

Obama's quote: “On the other hand, I also have a belief that we need to look forward as opposed to looking backwards.”

I personally disagree with him on this. Example of all - we should forget and move on what and how Rod Blagojevich and CIA rape issue in 2 threads. Should I say “Well, that guy raped that woman an hour ago — he’s not raping her now — I think we should be looking forward, not backwards.” and go on....? I beleive in Justice..., not just say forget the past and move on... It make no sense to me.

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Obama's take on moving onwards:
I hope this can apply to everyone else. For those who are against torture, it's time to move on. Whatever happened at Guantanamo isn't going to magically reverse and transflux back in time to fix itself.. Better to focus on other issues at hand, mainly future prison/detention camps and see if it still continues. There's nothing to gain from crying over spilled milk, unless you just want to point some fingers at people. Keep in mind, some don't like being pointed at.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree on this.

Look WWII time - Nürnberger trial -justice system... Nazi Officers got their punishment is excuted them for torture and murder people in Nazi camp (death camp), etc. They don't move on to forget WWII and Nazi camp, etc but they keep faith on the justice... Many Nazi Officers killed themselves before they were charged for war crime, arrested them and sentence them long years, life and death penalty. It's justice but Obama and move on? It make no sense to me. I want to see justice on Bush & co. either they are guilty or not.

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Reflection of the German News overall:
Three words: Richard Nixon, why?

That wasn't necessary. What Nixon did isn't the same thing as Bush did. They're putting the apple in the same pile as the oranges, and I don't think that was completely necessary.. Furthermore, people who don't progress or have a reasonable background of thinking will start being like "Oh my, look at Bush, he's about to be as bad as Nixon!" (even though Nixon really didn't do much aside from being paranoid..) They chastised Nixon. They chastised Clinton. It is no surprise they now want to chastise Bush.

I really have no idea what you say. Can you please post the example source to support your claim here? I only know that some Germans compare Bush with Hitler which is not right because Bush is not Hitler.

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Musings of two Guantanamo Prisoners:
There is information pertaining to how a few individuals were treated, but do not accuse the whole prison under "Guilt by association".
What two men experienced does not pertain to the whole prison. If you observe the pictures Reba posted, and do not think negatively of it. I would say Guantanamo isn't the absolute zero, take a dump on the floor, Sergeants forcing their prisoners to do slave work while they watch overhead with a rifle. You can easily observe that there is some form of "care" for these prisoners. If anything, that looks like pretty good treatment to have a school, an exercise yard, a library of things to do. I don't think even some of the prisons in the USA have this.

I do not think any negative about the pictures, Reba posted but denial because the reporters were told to follow the rule to not allow to talk Gitmo detainees. That's what I question about... Why? Picture is important to show than human being's experience?

I use one ADer's post as an example: She shared her sad childhood story in several threads. She was being abused physical and emotionally by her parents. Her teacher reported CPS to help her. CPS went to check with the parents - Guess what? CPS denied ADer because the villa where she live is beautiful and well care... It shows itself that CPS care about the picture more than human being's experience.

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Say Herr Heinrich Lutipold Himmler was alive today and just released from Berlin's prison. He defiles the jail, commenting that it was horrible, they tortured him and set the dogs loose, cigarette burn marks, waterboarded his butt.

Are you, say if any of us were a German citizen take what herr Himmler has to say for himself?

Well, if he was alive, then he would get charge in Nuremberg trial for death penalty like what the court did with other Nazi Officers/General for war crimes... Its about Justice system.

Maybe they would hurt Himmler in prison after Nuremberg trial IF there're no death penalty.

Obama should prosecute Bush & co because its about Justice system like what they did in Nuremberg trial after WWII. That's what I want to see justice on Bush & co for war crimes because they let his people to "arrest" many wrong people without justice in pakistan and Afgan, then "brought" them to Gitmo camp. If they commit crime in Pakistan or Afgan then do that there, not in USA.

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Remember and recall, Himmler is partially responsible for masterminding a part of what happened to the Jews. He was, and probably still is apart of the Nazi. Are you going to drop the ball and agree with das Himmler's response, and without thinking twice, going to start blaming Germany's prisons? They've got to have torture in there as well. Do we start blaming Herr Horst Koeheler? Don't forget, a torture scandal happened in German juvie prisons as well in 2006.

Look both ways before you cross the road!

German do not torture, beaten and sexually abused to death by Juvenile guards but cellmates.

We only blame for short staff to notice how and what the cellmates did to him. We need more staff to watch them, that's all.

Torture Death in Juvenile Jail Sparks Round of Soul Searching | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 24.11.2006

I remember from saw on TV that Herr Horst Koehler want harsh punishment after what happened with 2 Turkish youth beat up Pensioner in underground... His suggestion was being rejected

In Germany, Focus on Preventing Not Punishing Youth Crime | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 06.10.2007

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Why so highly classified and confidential?
The information that the agents at Guantanamo retrieved from the detainees are classified. We, as John and Jane Does, won't be knowing what's in it for a good amount of time. And we don't have a reason to need to know. It's not our business, because frankly, we currently don't work in the US military.
Probably by the time your 10 year old child is 70, these documents will probably become declassified, only to be amidst skeptical scrutiny by some person in the future who has nothing better to do than criticize about the past.

It's your opinion. We as citizion have the right to know like example about WWII issues.

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Because, I can get offended as well when someone calls Bush "America". What Bush did was "American". Sorry. Bush is not all of America!

FYI: We have nothing against Americans personally but US polities itself what and how Bush and Co. did...

Quote:

PS. Be on topic. Jokes are fine, just don't drag it too far imo. Some may not have a sense of humor, others may not realize what's going on. This is coming from me, mister sarcastic. On the other hand, if you can't handle a joke.. you're hanging out with the wrong people.

Yeah, I do not take their sense of humor serious and shared mine with them... It's bad, they don't like my sense of humor :shrug:

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-06-2009, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Who is Co.? Corporation? :scratch:

I mean Bush and his Adminratsion.

**Jiro** · 02-06-2009, 04:09 AM

Liebling - I want to make sure that you understand this issue. Please answer the following questions IN YOUR OWN WORD. not someone's post or website. Please answer IN YOUR OWN WORD so that I can see if we're on same page or not because I know our understanding of English language is different.

Torture & Detainment Camp
1. You claim that we torture prisoners. Can you tell us WHAT kind of torture was used?
2. Can you tell me WHERE the "torture" was being performed?
3. Can you tell me WHO performed the torture?
4. Tell me how many Detention Camps do we have? and where?
5. YES or NO - Do you think it is safe and good idea to detain terrorists on American mainland?
6. Tell me how do we detain 200+ terrorists to interrogate them?
7. A scenario question - we arrested 1 terrorist but we know that he has a friend but he won't tell us anything. We know that his friend is going to blow up something to kill many people such as subway, building, etc. He laughed at us and mocked us and said that they will punish us. What do you propose what we should do with that terrorist if he won't tell us any information that we need to save hundred of lives? (Remember - you have a very short time!!! Maybe few hours.... maybe tomorrow...)

Terrorists
1. YES or NO - Do you think terrorists are completely different from common criminals?
2. YES or NO - Do you believe Geneva Convention applies to terrorists?

American Laws & Courts
1. Do you FULLY understand what FISA court is and the purpose of it? Please explain your answer.
2. Do you FULLY understand what our Patriot Acts is about?

Censorship
1. You claim that our government censors some information. What kind of information is being censored?
2. YES or NO - Is it a censorship if we can see horrible pictures and stories by former prisoners?
3. YES or NO - are you able to view horrible pictures and prisoners' stories with your computer provided by USA Military at USA Military Base?

One last question - what will you be doing for this weekend with your lovely family?

**Jiro** · 02-06-2009, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I mean Bush and his Adminratsion.

You can simply call it Bush Administration. Yes I do believe they should be charged with war profiteering but nothing related to so-called torture and invasions.

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 09:10 AM

I can see where you stand on the whole issue now. Nothing really to add here from me Liebling, only this part:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I really have no idea what you say. Can you please post the example source to support your claim here? I only know that some Germans compare Bush with Hitler which is not right because Bush is not Hitler.

If you watch that german news video I posted, they are talking and comparing Nixon. Why are they doing that? Can you tell me what you think?

This is the deutsche they spoke of for that part:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZDF.de

George Bush auf der Anklagebank? Noch nie in der amerikanischen Geschichte hat sich ein US-Prasident vor Gericht verantworten müssen. Selbst Richard Nixon nicht. Wegen des Watergate-Skandals musste er 1974 zurücktreten. Einige seiner Mitarbeiter wurden verurteilt, Nixon selbst aber von seinem Nachfolger Gerald Ford begnadigt, noch bevor eine Anklage erhoben wurde. Auch George Bush könnte davon kommen. Dasjedenfalls legen Obamas Worte vor gut einer Woche im USFernsehen
nahe.

Anklage wegen Folter?
Here is the direct link to ZDF heuten's website for their video on this if you can't see the youtube.

ZDF.de - "Die Leute ganz oben"
This is ZDF news article about it.

**Reba** · 02-06-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I would ask you the same thing...

Why? I never made up any "rules" for correcting threads; you're the only one who did that.

Quote:

Anyway, Do you hear my complaint that you choose to disrespect my thread to make

over newspaper jokes here? Nope, but share my

sense of humor with you and CCSinned...[/FONT]

It's called comic relief, a brief interlude from all the heavy debate, in order to release some of the stress. It was brief, and we got back on topic.

**Jiro** · 02-06-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

I can see where you stand on the whole issue now. Nothing really to add here from me Liebling, only this part:

If you watch that german news video I posted, they are talking and comparing Nixon. Why are they doing that? Can you tell me what you think?

<hit your head with a roll of newspaper> Didn't ya forget that we're

??

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

<hit your head with a roll of newspaper> Didn't ya forget that we're

??

It has subtitles in English. There's also a summary of it on their site.

**Jiro** · 02-06-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

It has subtitles in English. There's also a summary of it on their site.

<hit my head with a roll of newspaper> I just had to turn on CC in that youtube player.

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 09:22 AM

It's np, but after I watched that video, I can see why now some Germans may have a bad taste of American politics.

The Deutsch are REALLY talking down about the "torture" techniques, their health expert and human rights experts showing up and giving their opinion, talking about Bush vs Nixon, etc.. This footage is like the oil that fuels the fire for this whole thing.

I watched it 5 times.

**Reba** · 02-06-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

If you know a lot why you posted censored pictures here for?

I didn't post any censored pictures. If they had been censored I wouldn't have access to them.

Quote:

I deny the pictures with censorship. To me, use the censorship is a dishonest and lie. I demand FULLY is allow the reporters to interview with Gitmo prisoners, and show ALL rooms including torture room...but the military do not allow journalists to interview Gitmo prisoners... Do you expect us to believe that?

If there is no torture room, how can they show one?

So the military should ignore all standards of safety, security, and privacy, just to provide reporters with a story? I don't think so.

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Really? they doesn't censored pictures and film in RAF museum, London. We saw FULLY what and how the people through in Nazi camp, and what and they did with human experiment - use jew's skin to make lamp, purse, etc. dead bodies - naked people in Gas chamber... grave... like trash bin... Censor? It could be US military's pictures...?

The pictures and film were being taken by British military... and open in RAF muesum, London. After WWII, many Germans went to kino to watch Nazi camp.. After that, they

with stomach, cried...

Are you seriously comparing what happened in WWII concentration camps with today's GITMO?

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Witnesses? Are you say it's Government's witnesses? I mean military's "positive" report...? You beleive them then is your perogative. I remember the example about Nazi time - many Germans beleive in Hitler until after WWII they found out the truth about Nazi camp after few months mouth to mouth "rumor" about camp.

Many good people accept people's bad experience over withness's report like what good German people did to Nazi survivors and Nazi camp, not Government.

GITMO was never set up as a place to torture and kill people, unlike the Nazi concentration camps. You have some nerve comparing the two.

If you think American soldiers are so murderous, cruel, and lying, why do you work for them? Why do you accept their blood money? If you really believe that the military that runs GITMO is as bad as WWII Nazis, why do you work for them? Isn't that the same as the Germans whose work supported Nazi camps?

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Don't you know that a lot of witnesses can cover up... I had a bad experience with witness for her lie once at 20 years ago. I know from that experience, that the witnesses are not alway tell the truth.

If you know that then why do you believe the GITMO prisoners? You admit that they can lie.

Quote:

I have no reason to doubt former Gitmo prisoners' stories since 2002 because their stories over form of torture remain the same... until Bush and Cheney admitted that they authorize the torture in 2003/4 and again few weeks ago. Why do they lied to us in first place when they denied form of torture in 2002?

Are you talking about waterboarding?

Quote:

You can believe what you wish, it's your perogative. I cannot change your views or belief but the only way to change is to educate yourself to the truth.

It's too bad that you don't take your own advice.

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 09:39 AM

Here is the full manuskript in German on that video Liebling, in case you cannot see it at work:

The english ver, we already saw it in the youtube subtitles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZDF.de

Beitrag: Anklage wegen Folter?
Sendung vom 20. Januar 2009
Anmoderation:
Das war heute die größte Party, die Washington jemals erlebt hat.
Rund zwei Millionen Menschen begrüßten den Mann, unter dem
sich vieles andern soll. Jetzt also ist Barack Obama Prasident.
Und jetzt wird es ernst. Unter seinem Vorganger hat Amerika
Gefangene gefoltert, auch wenn das für George Bush bis zuletzt
nur „harsche Verhörmethoden" waren. Obama hat die
Massnahmen wie das berüchtigte „Waterboarding" klipp und klar
„Folter" genannt, aber sagt gleichzeitig, er suche nicht die große
Abrechnung mit der Regierung seines Vorgangers. Der UNSonderberichterstatter
für Folter allerdings sagt uns, Obama sei
rechtlich verpflichtet, gegen Bush und Co strafrechtlich
vorzugehen. Jörg Brase und Thomas Reichart berichten.
Text:
Selten haben auf einem neuen US-Prasidenten so große
Hoffnungen geruht wie auf Barack Obama. In seiner Antrittsrede
stellt er klar, er will brechen mit dem Erbe der Bush-Regierung
von Folter und Rechtlosigkeit im Kampf gegen den Terror.

O-Ton Barack Obama, US-Prasident:
Was unsere nationale Verteidigung angeht, so lehnen wir die
falsche Wahl zwischen unserer Sicherheit und unseren
Idealen ab.
Sein Vorganger George W. Bush verriet amerikanische Ideale im
Kampf gegen den Terror. Der Berliner Menschenrechtsanwalt
Wolfgang Kaleck verklagte Mitglieder der Bush-Regierung wegen
Folter und Misshandlungen vor deutschen Gerichten, bisher ohne
Erfolg. Dass Obama Folter als Verbrechen klar ablehnt, sei ein
guter Anfang, meint er.

O-Ton Wolfgang Kaleck, Menschenrechtsanwalt:
Was jetzt noch folgen muss, ist eine Aufklarung all der
Schandtaten, die in den letzten acht Jahren im Namen der
Terrorismusbekampfung erfolgt sind. Und was noch folgen
muss, ist eine Wiedergutmachung für die Verletzten und
eben gegebenenfalls auch eine Strafverfolgung gegen die
Schuldigen.
Menschenrechtler wie Kaleck fordern, dass Obama brutale
Verhörmethoden wie das simulierte Ertranken, das sogenannte
Waterboarding, wieder zu dem erklart, was es ist, und immer war:
Folter. Die Regierung Bush hatte Waterboarding legalisiert. Mit
fadenscheinigen Gutachten wurde für Recht erklart, was bis dahin
Unrecht war. Bis zuletzt blieb die alte US-Regierung bei ihrer
umstrittenen Haltung.

O-Ton John Conyers, Vors. Justizausschuss US-Parlament,
im Februar 2008:
Werden Sie strafrechtliche Ermittlungen aufnehmen, um
herauszufinden, ob der erwiesene Einsatz von
Waterboarding durch US-Agenten illegal war?
O-Ton Michael Mukasey, US-Justizminister:
Eine direkte Frage, und eine direkte Antwort: Nein, das werde
ich nicht tun!

Und Waterboarding war nicht die einzige Foltermethode, die CIA
und Armee einsetzten. Beispiel Guantanamo, der Gefangene
Nummer 063. Mohammed al Kahtani gilt als wichtiges Mitglied
von Al-Kaida. Das sind die Verhörprotokolle aus dem November
und Dezember 2002. Al-Kahtani wird wochenlang vernommen, 20
Stunden am Tag. Die Verhöre enden um Mitternacht, vier
Stunden spater wird er wieder geweckt. Er darf kaum schlafen,
wird sexuell gedemütigt und misshandelt.
Zitat:
18. Dezember 2002, 14:15 Uhr
Dem Gefangenen wurde mit elektrischen Rasierern Bart und
Haare abgeschnitten. Der Gefangene begann sich zu wehren,
als sein Bart berührt wurde. Er wurde aber schnell gefügig.
20. Dezember 2002, 11:15 Uhr
(Der Vernehmer) begann damit, dem Gefangenen Lektionen
wie „Bleib“, „Komm“ und „Belle“ zu lehren, um so seinen
gesellschaftlichen Rang auf den eines Hundes zu heben. Der

Gefangene wurde sehr aufgewühlt.
An den Folgen dieser Behandlung geht al-Kahtani fast zugrunde.
Das sei eindeutig Folter, sagen Menschenrechtler. Und auch die
oberste Juristin der amerikanischen Militartribunale, Susan
Crawford, kommt jetzt zu diesem Ergebnis. Sie lehnt eine
Anklage ab. Al-Kahtanis Gestandnisse seien nichts wert. Denn,
sagt Crawford, wir haben ihn gefoltert. Damit bestatigt sie, was
der UN-Sonderberichterstatter Manfred Nowak schon vor drei
Jahren in einem Bericht feststellte. Heute fordert er: die
Verantwortlichen müssen vor Gericht. Die Beweislage sei
eindeutig.

O-Ton Manfred Nowak, UN-Sonderberichterstatter für Folter:
Wir haben alle diese Dokumente, die sind heute auch alle
öffentlich zuganglich, dass diese Verhörmethoden
ausdrücklich von Rumsfeld angeordnet wurden. Aber
natürlich mit Wissen der höchsten Stellen in den Vereinigten
Staaten von Amerika.
Die höchste Stelle – das ist der Prasident. Nach der
amerikanischen Verfassung tragt er die Verantwortung für alles,
was die Regierung tut oder lasst.

O-Ton Prof. Dietmar Herz, Politikwissenschaftler Universitat
Erfurt:
Eigentlich bedeutet das, dass jede Handlung, die diese
Exekutive vornimmt und die der Prasident billigt und gegen
die er nicht einschreitet, ihm auch zuzurechnen ist.

O-Ton Frontal21:
Das heißt konkret auf Folter bezogen, wenn der Prasident
nichts dagegen unternimmt?
O-Ton Prof. Dietmar Herz, Politikwissenschaftler Universitat
Erfurt:
Dann hat der Prasident gefoltert. Das muss man in dieser
Drastik sagen.
Obama müsste Bush dafür zur Rechenschaft ziehen. Dazu
verpflichtet ihn die UN-Folterkonvention. Die USA haben sie
unterschrieben und als bindend anerkannt.

O-Ton Manfred Nowak, UN-Sonderberichterstatter für Folter:
Dann haben die Staaten die Verpflichtung alles zu tun, dass
Personen, denen vorgeworfen wird, dass sie gefoltert haben,
dass die auch letztlich vor ein Gericht kommen und
strafrechtlich belangt werden.
George Bush auf der Anklagebank? Noch nie in der
amerikanischen Geschichte hat sich ein US-Prasident vor Gericht
verantworten müssen. Selbst Richard Nixon nicht. Wegen des
Watergate-Skandals musste er 1974 zurücktreten. Einige seiner
Mitarbeiter wurden verurteilt, Nixon selbst aber von seinem
Nachfolger Gerald Ford begnadigt, noch bevor eine Anklage
erhoben wurde. Auch George Bush könnte davon kommen. Das
jedenfalls legen Obamas Worte vor gut einer Woche im USFernsehen
nahe.
(this is the example your german news used on nixon and bush)

O-Ton Barack Obama, US-Prasident:
Wir schauen uns natürlich an, was in der Vergangenheit
passiert ist, niemand steht über dem Gesetz. Andererseits
bin ich überzeugt, dass wir besser nach vorne schauen
sollten, statt zurück.

O-Ton Vince Warren, Center for Constitutional Rights:
Seine Vision mag sein, nach vorne zu blicken. Deshalb liegt
es an uns, die die Folteropfer vertreten, Druck auf ihn und
den Kongress auszuüben, damit ein Sonderermittler ernannt
wird. Obama sollte daran interessiert sein, zu wissen, was
wirklich passiert ist. Das ist das Mindeste, was er tun sollte.
Obama wird Guantanamo schließen und es wird wohl
Untersuchungen wegen der Verhörmethoden geben. Aber ob es
je zu Anklagen kommt, ist mehr als unsicher. Und wenn, glauben
Experten, werden nur die Schergen vor Gericht stehen, nicht aber
die Machtigen.

O-Ton Prof. Dietmar Herz, Politikwissenschaftler, Universitat
Erfurt:
Diejenigen, die politisch dafür verantwortlich sind, also die
wichtigen Figuren der Administration, Cheney, der ja das
Waterboarding noch in den letzten Tagen verteidigt hat oder
der Prasident selber, dass die nicht belangt werden - das
wird wahrscheinlich der Fall sein.

O-Ton Manfred Nowak, UN-Sonderberichterstatter für Folter:
Das ist letztlich natürlich auch eine politische Frage, ob man
diese Personen wirklich zur Verantwortung ziehen wird. Aber
rechtlich gesehen liegt hier eine klare Verpflichtung der
Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika vor.
Mit dieser rechtlichen Verpflichtung wird Obama umgehen
müssen. Er wird ab heute sein Wahlversprechen einlösen wollen.
Und das ist der Wechsel, der politische Neuanfang. Dazu gehört
auch die Entscheidung, ob er seinen Vorganger zur
Rechenschaft ziehen will, oder nicht.
Zur Beachtung: Dieses Manuskript ist urheberrechtlich geschützt. Der vorliegende Abdruck ist nur
zum privaten Gebrauch des Empfangers hergestellt. Jede andere Verwertung außerhalb der
engen Grenzen des Urheberrechtgesetzes ist ohne Zustimmung des Urheberberechtigten
unzulassig und strafbar. Insbesondere darf er weder vervielfaltigt, verarbeitet oder zu öffentlichen
Wiedergaben benutzt werden. Die in den Beitragen dargestellten Sachverhalte entsprechen dem
Stand des jeweiligen Sendetermins.

**Reba** · 02-06-2009, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I hope Bush & Co. will get porsecute because I beleive in Justice. Here is about Bush & Co. who violate the law because torture is an illegal.

If you felt that strongly about President Bush, why did you continue to work for him? He was Commander in Chief of the forces for whom you work. Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

**Reba** · 02-06-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

ADers,

You can believe what you wish, it's your perogative, I can't help you but the only way is change is to educate yourself before tell me that I'm wrong, shameless or whatever because I beleive in give each Gitmo detainee a fair trail...

They started to give each one a fair trial but Obama canceled the trials. Complain to him.

**Jiro** · 02-06-2009, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

They started to give each one a fair trial but Obama canceled the trials. Complain to him.

exactly -

President Obama: Suspend Gitmo Trials
Gitmo war crimes court halted at Obama request
9/11 Families Outraged by Obama Call to Suspend Guantanamo War Crimes Trials

and hundred more links....

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

If you felt that strongly about President Bush, why did you continue to work for him? He was Commander in Chief of the forces for whom you work. Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

Well, it's hard to dispute this one. One must earn wages and make a living too, no matter how hypocritical you can get.

Example:

Remember Robert Scoble aka "Scoblizer"?
If you dunno who he is, he was the guy who worked at Microsoft at day, and a giant hissy piss-on-my-company at night. He published his works and comments on them online in a blog, to be read by millions of people.

That didn't get him to stop working there until Microsoft discovered who he was and terminated his employment due to his blog.

Only the true to their feelings and take on life, will quit a job that is related to what they would believe is unfair.

Frisky Feline · 02-06-2009, 09:51 AM

Liebling, i really appreciate your views and posts everything. is that true you work for US military base in germany?? if so, how do they treat you over there? are they nice to you? just wonder.

***naisho*** · 02-06-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

It's called comic relief, a brief interlude from all the heavy debate, in order to release some of the stress. It was brief, and we got back on topic.

Just in case, Liebling might not have that term in her vocab, and I didn't want her feeling like she was getting rubbed the wrong way. So I decided to look up on the proper wording for that.

Liebling, when Reba said Comic Relief, she meant: Stilmittel

------------------------------
Comic relief (v. engl.: comic komisch; relief Entlastung) bezeichnet die Einbeziehung humorvoller bzw. witziger Charaktere, Szenen oder Dialoge in ansonsten ernsthafte Arbeiten. Dieses Stilmittel (rhetorische Figur) wird oft genutzt um Spannung abzubauen.

Ein Beispiel wäre die Fernsehserie Raumschiff Enterprise, in der am Ende eines überstandenen Abenteuers ein Scherz über z. B. einen emotionalen Ausbruch Spocks gemacht wird.
------------------------------

Frisky Feline · 02-06-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Just in case, Liebling might not have that term in her vocab, and I didn't want her feeling like she was getting rubbed the wrong way. So I decided to look up on the proper wording for that.

Liebling, when Reba said Comic Relief, she meant: Stilmittel

------------------------------
Comic relief (v. engl.: comic komisch; relief Entlastung) bezeichnet die Einbeziehung humorvoller bzw. witziger Charaktere, Szenen oder Dialoge in ansonsten ernsthafte Arbeiten. Dieses Stilmittel (rhetorische Figur) wird oft genutzt um Spannung abzubauen.

Ein Beispiel wäre die Fernsehserie Raumschiff Enterprise, in der am Ende eines überstandenen Abenteuers ein Scherz über z. B. einen emotionalen Ausbruch Spocks gemacht wird.
------------------------------

Nice. you can read germany language???

**Reba** · 02-06-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

...Only the true to their feelings and take on life, will quit a job that is related to what they would believe is unfair.

Yes, and I've done that a few times myself. It wasn't easy but I couldn't work for some people because of ethical reasons. During my time in the military I also had to confront a senior officer about something I felt was wrong. I was shaking in my boots but stood my ground.

DURAY · 02-07-2009, 08:08 PM

so why didn't the the liberals who worked at HUD, Labor, Education Departments who have President Bush as their top boss from 2001 to early 2009? Because they have mortgages/rent to paid. they wised up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

If you felt that strongly about President Bush, why did you continue to work for him? He was Commander in Chief of the forces for whom you work. Wouldn't that be hypocritical?

**Reba** · 02-07-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DURAY

so why didn't the the liberals who worked at HUD, Labor, Education Departments who have President Bush as their top boss from 2001 to early 2009? Because they have mortgages/rent to paid. they wised up.

So do you think it's ethical for someone to continually accuse her boss of being a war criminal but accept money for doing work that supports the boss's war? Does that make the worker also guilty?

Doug5 · 02-11-2009, 04:20 PM

if a suspect has info about a nuke ready to go off in a city, I say torture them all they want

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-12-2009, 08:55 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I can't help you to educate yourself about the REAL REALITY that you don't want to see.

Excuse me, I know what I am saying. I tried to explain that Censorship is a word of many meanings

Quote:

The terrorists are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from common criminals.

Of course I know the terrorists are involved against political issues which is not same thing as criminals. What's your point?

Quote:

Please refer to my post in other thread about Bush Administration.

Yes, I have read your post at other thread and choose to respect your view on this.

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-12-2009, 09:07 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Please stick with the facts, not assumptions. again - proof please?

The links of interview were being posted several times on this thread. I really have no idea why you overlook it.

Quote:

THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT WE'RE DOING!!!! What do you mean hold them for years? Do you have any idea how long the legal proceeding takes? It's not an overnight thing. Lot of criminal cases takes years. WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

No, you really have no idea what you are saying...

Terrorists and criminals are suppose to get fair trial but terrorists doesn't. Just hold terrorists for years without charge/trial but criminals does.

Quote:

WTF? you're comparing our Detention Camps with your country's Nazi death camps? and you work for USA Military?

*SMH* It's disgusting to me. absolutely disgraceful.

Huh? I do not compare Gitmo torture camp with Nazi death camp. It's justice, I'm refer to because they have Nuremberg trial to sentence the people who commit criminal to death, life, years, etc. Why can't they do the same to sentence Bush Admin. then? That's Justice, what I question about... and beleive in justice that the government should prosecute Bush Admin. like what they did with the people during Nazi time. Please don't misinterpreted my post.

Quote:

Ask me if I care about the world's views. They didn't have 4 planes hijacked and flown toward to 2 major financial towers, military headquarter, and ALMOST White House so they need to STFU because we bailed out their ass many times. Why spit at us now when you all supported us and our actions after 9/11?

No, Bush Admin. have no reason to "arrest" and authorize his people to torture the wrong people without charge/proof/etc. Why hold them for years without charge for? Why just only muslim for?

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-12-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Liebling, just dropping a note on what I can see Jiro is trying to say to you about the censorship.

There are two ways of depicting information that is blocked to the public, this is for USA only. Reba said it earlier in the other post she replied to me.

1) Geheimhaltungsstufe
In our military, any information that is under geheimhaltungsstufe "geheim einstufend" - only the military knows about it, and will not tell us. We are free to make any articles, news, ideas and thoughts about these "geheimnisse" that they do not wish us to know the details about. We can say anything we want about these secrets, from our own opinions. They will not stop us from making opinions.

2) Zensur (not school grades, but of "Informations kontrolle")
This means anything that we know - newspaper, tv, internet, mail, phone, everything -- about a particular subject is "absperren" by the government, "assistieren" by the military. Any news or info that comes out is blocked as well. I see you understand this already. But there is a part 2. If this Guantanamo Bay subject was censored - we can't see those pictures, pictures of actual Guantanamo waterboarding, the story of the Guantanamo prisoners. These articles would all be blocked, if they were posted, they would get taken down and our government would arrest them.

Currently, Guatanamo is not censored because we can see these articles and pictures, story from the prisoners, and guard.

Censorship is a word of many meanings.

Example of all -

I was like

after read German and English wikipedia over Zion few weeks ago before I created a thread "Censorship" that there're a lot of missing in English wikipedia than German wikipedia... I saw wikipedia mentioned on the list in the censorship link at my thread... I found 2 links and will post 2 links at my thread "Censorship" later.

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-12-2009, 09:17 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

If you watch that german news video I posted, they are talking and comparing Nixon. Why are they doing that? Can you tell me what you think?

[quote]I viewed 7 minutes German video, you posted. Yes, but it's not just 7 minutes between 20 and 45 minutes... I have seen a lot of interviews over their experience in Gitmo camp. They showed their scar body...

About Nixon - no they do not compare Nixon with Bush. They remind us that Nixon face consequence over watergate scandal... Why can't Bush do the same then? It's about justice, we refer to those questions.

Quote:

This is the deutsche they spoke of for that part:

Anklage wegen Folter?
Here is the direct link to ZDF heuten's website for their video on this if you can't see the youtube.

ZDF.de - "Die Leute ganz oben"
This is ZDF news article about it.

for link - yes, I watch ZDF news everyday but it's not few minutes but 20 minutes... and world journal 45 minutes...

**Liebling:-)))** · 02-12-2009, 09:31 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I didn't post any censored pictures. If they had been censored I wouldn't have access to them.

If there is no torture room, how can they show one?

So the military should ignore all standards of safety, security, and privacy, just to provide reporters with a story? I don't think so.

If you beleive that the pictures, you posted is not censored then is your perogative.

Quote:

Are you seriously comparing what happened in WWII concentration camps with today's GITMO?

Please don't twist my post because I never compare WWII with Gitmo camp. I answered your question about WWII and censorship issues. Please stick it and

Quote:

GITMO was never set up as a place to torture and kill people, unlike the Nazi concentration camps. You have some nerve comparing the two.

You said this, not me because I don't compare Nazi camp with Gitmo camp. I really don't have idea why you accuse me for...

Quote:

If you think American soldiers are so murderous, cruel, and lying, why do you work for them? Why do you accept their blood money? If you really believe that the military that runs GITMO is as bad as WWII Nazis, why do you work for them? Isn't that the same as the Germans whose work supported Nazi camps?

I beleive in and respect justice system. I work for US Government for long years and obey the law before Bush Admin. come and violate the US law which is not acceptance. We have the right to defend US law. Its about justice. I thought you beleive in justice, don't you?

Quote:

If you know that then why do you believe the GITMO prisoners? You admit that they can lie.

That's why I kept quiet during debate threads since 2004 until I saw the proof then I can say something. They repeated their words over form of torture for years since after 9/11. Their scars are shown... I watched their TV interviews and use my common sense.

Quote:

Are you talking about waterboarding?

Torture is Torture..., not just waterboarding.

**Reba** · 02-12-2009, 11:55 AM

GITMO is not a "torture camp." Continually calling it that is an insult to all the American military who serve there.

**Reba** · 02-12-2009, 12:00 PM

If I worked for the US Army, and I believed that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would quit. I would not accept blood money.

If someone continues working for the military during an "illegal" war, then that person cares more about money than about conscience. I think that is clear enough.

If a former prisoner shows a scar, how do we know who caused the injury, when it was done, where it was done, and why it was done? People can lie.

02-06-2009, 04:09 AM	#243 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,428	Engrish clash Liebling - I want to make sure that you understand this issue. Please answer the following questions IN YOUR OWN WORD. not someone's post or website. Please answer IN YOUR OWN WORD so that I can see if we're on same page or not because I know our understanding of English language is different. Torture & Detainment Camp 1. You claim that we torture prisoners. Can you tell us WHAT kind of torture was used? 2. Can you tell me WHERE the "torture" was being performed? 3. Can you tell me WHO performed the torture? 4. Tell me how many Detention Camps do we have? and where? 5. YES or NO - Do you think it is safe and good idea to detain terrorists on American mainland? 6. Tell me how do we detain 200+ terrorists to interrogate them? 7. A scenario question - we arrested 1 terrorist but we know that he has a friend but he won't tell us anything. We know that his friend is going to blow up something to kill many people such as subway, building, etc. He laughed at us and mocked us and said that they will punish us. What do you propose what we should do with that terrorist if he won't tell us any information that we need to save hundred of lives? (Remember - you have a very short time!!! Maybe few hours.... maybe tomorrow...) Terrorists 1. YES or NO - Do you think terrorists are completely different from common criminals? 2. YES or NO - Do you believe Geneva Convention applies to terrorists? American Laws & Courts 1. Do you FULLY understand what FISA court is and the purpose of it? Please explain your answer. 2. Do you FULLY understand what our Patriot Acts is about? Censorship 1. You claim that our government censors some information. What kind of information is being censored? 2. YES or NO - Is it a censorship if we can see horrible pictures and stories by former prisoners? 3. YES or NO - are you able to view horrible pictures and prisoners' stories with your computer provided by USA Military at USA Military Base? One last question - what will you be doing for this weekend with your lovely family? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95 Last edited by Jiro; 02-06-2009 at 09:18 AM. Reason: grammar correction ^_^

02-06-2009, 09:22 AM	#250 (permalink)
*naisho* Forum Disorders M.D.,Ph.D Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 6,161	It's np, but after I watched that video, I can see why now some Germans may have a bad taste of American politics. The Deutsch are REALLY talking down about the "torture" techniques, their health expert and human rights experts showing up and giving their opinion, talking about Bush vs Nixon, etc.. This footage is like the oil that fuels the fire for this whole thing. I watched it 5 times. __________________

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02-06-2009, 09:51 AM	#257 (permalink)
Frisky Feline Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20,206	Liebling, i really appreciate your views and posts everything. is that true you work for US military base in germany?? if so, how do they treat you over there? are they nice to you? just wonder.

02-11-2009, 04:20 PM	#263 (permalink)
Doug5 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 865	if a suspect has info about a nuke ready to go off in a city, I say torture them all they want

02-12-2009, 11:55 AM	#269 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,108	GITMO is not a "torture camp." Continually calling it that is an insult to all the American military who serve there.

02-12-2009, 12:00 PM	#270 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,108	If I worked for the US Army, and I believed that the Commander in Chief was conducting an illegal war, I would quit. I would not accept blood money. If someone continues working for the military during an "illegal" war, then that person cares more about money than about conscience. I think that is clear enough. If a former prisoner shows a scar, how do we know who caused the injury, when it was done, where it was done, and why it was done? People can lie.