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Unread 01-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Reba View Post
Types of waterboarding have been around since the Middle Ages.

Formal US special forces training started during WWII.
all thanks to... the FROGMEN!
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Unread 01-27-2009, 10:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
simple - to get the vital information that is the matter of life and death. imagine capturing senior-ranking terrorist who has knowledge of terrorist attack that can happen at any moment. obviously - he's not going to spit it out. obviously he's going to laugh at you - "you will pay!" and preach about infidels, injustice, etc.

so when hundreds, if not thousands, of lives are at stake.... certain torture procedure is performed without leaving permanent physical damage on individual... which is waterboarding.
I thought they did it for kicks...if there is a good reason such as getting information, then go for it!
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Unread 01-27-2009, 10:42 AM   #33 (permalink)
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reba.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:12 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jolie77 View Post
Ah, Thanks! That is what I thought.

It seems like it is a harsh torture. I was imaging that if I were to be the victim, I know I would not like it and wouldn't be pleased about it either.
Willkommen.

Yes, thatīs what I think the same...
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:17 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerON
I thought you, germany woman, don't believe in the kind punishment. Huh?
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
she doesn't.

Can you please show me where I say that I donīt beleive in punishment for criminals ?
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:19 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I thought they did it for kicks...if there is a good reason such as getting information, then go for it!
OH HELL NO! people who did it for "kicks" are in jail. The pictures you saw in news like a female soldier smiling, posing while cuffed prisoners were naked are because the interrogator told her to do it.

It's part of "psychological torture" (I cannot recall proper term for that technique. Reba please do correct me) by offending terrorists' Islamic belief. For example - women is beneath everybody in their culture. To have a woman "overpowering" these men and laughing at them is psychologically demoralizing. When locked in prison cell, the prison keep blaring music at loud volume all day and night and kept shining bright spotlights on them so that they will suffer severe sleep deprivation.

They did not perform physical torture until later because psychological torture was probably proven ineffective and time-consuming. That's how waterboarding came in.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:20 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liebling:-))) View Post
Can you please show me where I say that I don´t beleive in punishment for criminals ?
can you please learn how to follow the conversation? This thread is about torture, no? You do not believe in TORTURE (punishment), do you?
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:29 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
OH HELL NO! people who did it for "kicks" are in jail. The pictures you saw in news like a female soldier smiling, posing while cuffed prisoners were naked are because the interrogator told her to do it....
Quote:
England gets 3 years for prison abuse
Soldier dishonorably discharged for Abu Ghraib scandal
The Associated Press
updated 3:06 a.m. ET, Wed., Sept. 28, 2005

FORT HOOD, Texas - Army Pfc. Lynndie England, who said she was only trying to please her soldier boyfriend when she took part in detainee abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison, was sentenced late Tuesday to three years behind bars.

England’s sentencing wrapped up the last of nine courts-martial of low-level soldiers charged in the scandal, which severely damaged America’s image in the Muslim world and tarnished the U.S. military at home and abroad....
The rest of the story at:

England gets 3 years for prison abuse - Crime & courts- msnbc.com
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:36 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
can you please learn how to follow the conversation? This thread is about torture, no? You do not believe in TORTURE (punishment), do you?
:scratch:

No, no, you should re-read and re-read CAREFULLY....PowerON never say that I donīt beleive in torture but said that I donīt beleive in punishment. You quoted to give him right. I asked you both in polite way to show me where I donīt beleive in punishment for criminals.

And please re-read and re-read the title of this thread CAREFULLY to see yourself that I do not create a thread over torture itself but UN Official wants to prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture. Its about Bush and Rumsfeld itself who violates the Internation law for did criminal Act, not torture itself because itīs them who authorize the torture. Its about Justice
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:37 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liebling:-))) View Post
:scratch:

No, no, you should re-read and re-read CAREFULLY....PowerON never say that I donīt beleive in torture but said that I donīt beleive in punishment. You quoted to give him right. I asked you both in polite way to show me where I donīt beleive in punishment for criminals.

And please re-read and re-read the title of this thread CAREFULLY to see yourself that I do not create a thread over torture itself but UN Official wants to prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture. Its about Bush and Rumsfeld itself who violates the Internation law for did criminal Act, not torture itself because itīs them who authorize the torture. Its about Justice
.
oh god forget it. whatever floats your boat, Liebling.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:39 AM   #41 (permalink)
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I neglected to mention about the actual outcome of it. I guess we'll never know for sure. it's a highly-politically charged issue... so the story changes all the time.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:40 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
...It's part of "psychological torture" (I cannot recall proper term for that technique. Reba please do correct me) by offending terrorists' Islamic belief. For example - women is beneath everybody in their culture. To have a woman "overpowering" these men and laughing at them is psychologically demoralizing. When locked in prison cell, the prison keep blaring music at loud volume all day and night and kept shining bright spotlights on them so that they will suffer severe sleep deprivation.

They did not perform physical torture until later because psychological torture was probably proven ineffective and time-consuming. That's how waterboarding came in.
Not psychological torture. Do you mean psychological operations (PSYOPS)?

General definitions:
Quote:
PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS:
(DOD) Planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign government, organizations, groups, and individuals. The purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce foreign attitudes and behavior favorable to the originator's objectives. Also called PSYOP. See also perception management.

PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS:
(NATO) Planned psychological activities in peace and war directed to enemy, friendly, and neutral audiences in order to influence attitudes and behavior affecting the achievement of political and military objectives. They include strategic psychological activities, consolidation psychological operations and battlefield psychological activities.

PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS:
(IADB) These operations include psychological warfare and, in addition, encompass those political, military, economic, and ideological actions planned and conducted to create in neutral or friendly foreign groups the emotions, attitudes, or behavior to support the achievement of national objectives.

PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS APPROACH:
(NATO) The technique adopted to induce a desired reaction on the part of the target audience.
THINK MAGAZINE • GLOSSARY DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE MILITARY AND ASSOCIATED TERMS

More at:
Special Operations.Com - PSYOPs
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:46 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Not psychological torture. Do you mean psychological operations (PSYOPS)?

General definitions:

THINK MAGAZINE • GLOSSARY DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE MILITARY AND ASSOCIATED TERMS

More at:
Special Operations.Com - PSYOPs
yes

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All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. - Sun Tzu
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
OH HELL NO! people who did it for "kicks" are in jail. The pictures you saw in news like a female soldier smiling, posing while cuffed prisoners were naked are because the interrogator told her to do it.

It's part of "psychological torture" (I cannot recall proper term for that technique. Reba please do correct me) by offending terrorists' Islamic belief. For example - women is beneath everybody in their culture. To have a woman "overpowering" these men and laughing at them is psychologically demoralizing. When locked in prison cell, the prison keep blaring music at loud volume all day and night and kept shining bright spotlights on them so that they will suffer severe sleep deprivation.

They did not perform physical torture until later because psychological torture was probably proven ineffective and time-consuming. That's how waterboarding came in.
Oh yes I remember about Lynnie England and her scandal over abuse Iraqi detainees in Abu Graib. The description what you made here is an exact same what I read Murat´s book what and how he experienced in GB.

Anyway, here is updated 17.03.2008 of Lynnie´s first interview with German reporter after serving 521 days of 3 years sentence. ...

She said that she have to follow order what and how she did with Iraqi detainees and everything including Bush and Rumfeld, the people from Military Intelligence, her ex-boyfriend, GB.

Lynndie England : 'Rumsfeld knew' - Politik - STERN.DE











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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
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all thanks to... the FROGMEN!

ye mean the french started it Jiro

If bush doesnt see it as torture I'm sure he will go on live tv with the rest of them and show them how easy it is

I hate the idea of torture, it brings us down to their level, if they are 100% guilty they should be shot, people as warped as them will never be changed by prison, so why pay to keep them alive.

what i think they should do is, shut the camps, give them a trial, if guilty shoot them, if innocent let them go.

their treatment is inhumane, but they should never be freed unless innocent.

Last edited by Macian; 01-27-2009 at 12:56 PM.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:54 AM   #46 (permalink)
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oh god forget it. whatever floats your boat, Liebling.
You should be honest instead of twist or misinterpret...
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Unread 01-27-2009, 11:57 AM   #47 (permalink)
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You should be honest instead of twist or misinterpret...
first of all - how do you know if PowerOn's actually talking about punishing the prisoners in terms of imprisonment? It's called the context. This thread is about torture-related so with that context - I'm sure PowerOn meant "torturing" instead of "punishing" because in the past - PowerOn has misused a few words sometimes. People make mistakes.

I told him that you do not support torture. Am I wrong? do you support it?
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I neglected to mention about the actual outcome of it. I guess we'll never know for sure. it's a highly-politically charged issue... so the story changes all the time.
You might find this interesting:

Lynndie England : A Soldier's Tale - Marie Claire
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:04 PM   #49 (permalink)
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interesting.... so it's all because of "boyfriend" although I find it hard to believe. I would not like to think she was "pressured" by unknown party to play on boyfriend card to avoid political embarrassment/backlash on certain members of Bush Administration.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:09 PM   #50 (permalink)
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first of all - how do you know if PowerOn's actually talking about punishing the prisoners in terms of imprisonment? It's called the context. This thread is about torture-related so with that context - I'm sure PowerOn meant "torturing" instead of "punishing"

I told him that you do not support torture. Am I right? or do you support it?
Well, he know that I donīt beleive in capital punishment in many threads in the past... The last of his sentence got my attention ..... "Huh?" - it look like that he thought .... which mean that he talked about know my past posts. I suspect that itīs what he referring to so I rather to not make an assumption thatīs why I ASK him in polite way to show me where.... or his explanation.... first then...........


Yes I am against torture totally.


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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Yes I am against torture totally.
that's what I told him. I saved your time.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #52 (permalink)
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It's part of "psychological torture" (I cannot recall proper term for that technique. Reba please do correct me) by offending terrorists' Islamic belief. For example - women is beneath everybody in their culture. To have a woman "overpowering" these men and laughing at them is psychologically demoralizing.
i'd be curious to know what this is called as well.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:16 PM   #53 (permalink)
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i'd be curious to know what this is called as well.
AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - UN Official Wants to Prosecute Bush, Rumsfeld for Torture
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:16 PM   #54 (permalink)
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that's what I told him. I saved your time.
Okay...

I don´t mention for not support torture in many posts but captional punishment. I answered your question about against torture first time is HERE.

How do you know that it´s torture, PowerON referring to? First wait for his reply then...
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:24 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I'm curious.

Suppose a pedophile kidnapped your child, and buried him somewhere with a limited amount of air left. The police catch the pedophile but don't know where your child is buried. The clock is ticking. The police try various ways to get information from the pedophile. They try pleading to his humanity, trickery, family contacts, sympathy, legal deals, etc. They know from his family that he's terrified of drowning (he even avoids crossing bridges).

Would you approve of using waterboarding on this person to get information?
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:30 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Okay...

I donīt mention for not support torture in many posts but captional punishment. I answered your question about against torture first time is HERE.

How do you know that itīs torture, PowerON referring to? First wait for his reply then...
educated assumption because this thread is about torture-related and PowerOn has misused word by mistakes several times. so with both factors in mind, I'm sure PowerOn is talking about torture, not punishing criminals to jail. If i'm wrong, well then forgive me.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:30 PM   #57 (permalink)
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You might find this interesting:

Lynndie England : A Soldier's Tale - Marie Claire
for link to compare with Lynnieīs first interview with German Reporter of last year. I prefer to see Lynnieīs own word to answer Reporterīs questions...

Lynndie England : 'Rumsfeld knew' - Politik - STERN.DE
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:33 PM   #58 (permalink)
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for link to compare with Lynnieīs first interview with German Reporter of last year. I prefer to see Lynnieīs own word to answer Reporterīs questions...

Lynndie England : 'Rumsfeld knew' - Politik - STERN.DE
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Unread 01-27-2009, 12:53 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I find it amazing that there's so much hand-wringing over the waterboarding of three terrorists to extract information. It might make me feel morally superior to oppose waterboarding no matter what, but that's easy to do when I don't have to pay the price for a wrong decision. I have to ask myself what I would do if some psycho kidnapped my wife and put her in a situation where she was going to die if I didn't get verifiable information out of him. If I'm being honest with myself, then I have to say I would waterboard him. If some human rights group wanted to protest my decision, I'd give them the middle finger. So if I'm willing to waterboard to get information to save one life, who am I to tell the CIA never to waterboard even if thousands of lives are at stake?

I don't think we should waterboard people out of revenge or desire for punishment. We should only do it when we know someone has valuable, verifiable information and we've exhausted all other avenues.
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Unread 01-27-2009, 01:01 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I don't think we should waterboard people out of revenge or desire for punishment. We should only do it when we know someone has valuable, verifiable information and we've exhausted all other avenues.
of course not we don't do it for kicks. but the problem is - what if they're innocents? "shit happens" right?

and of course... I ask you all - at what PRICE are you willing to pay for to stay safe?
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