Liebling:-)))

[quote]Do you mean pride/proud soliders? If yes, then I would agree with you but I prefer to not label them as idiots because it's an insult word. I prefer to say that they should keep themselves instead of brag to the public for want to go Iraq war, or insult soliders who have their reason for refuse to go Iraq war as coward, chicken, etc. next time.

You said this yourself, not me.

Simple is:

You don't care.
I care.

1. No, I am a pro-choice because I support troops to risk their life for defend and protect the people from any countries.

2. No, I am a pro-choice because I work for US Army and support troops.

3. No, I am a pro-choice for support abortion to save women's choice for risk life.

4. No, I am a pro-choice for respect troops for want to go war instead of protest and insult troops with terrible names.

5. No, I am a pro-choice for respect different countries's law for death penalty instead of protest and insult them as murderer/killers.

6. It doesn't mean that I am a pro-life to claim that I am an anti-war and anti-death penalty because I respect their choice.

7. No, I am a pro-choice when I am for a hunter who shot animal for meat, not for the fun (sport).

This is a Forum, we can express our view openly what we think doesnt mean that we insult them in real life, don't we?


Anyway, I would call a person as a hypocrite if they claim that she/he is a pro-life for against abortion and support war and death penalty. That's why I claim to be a pro-choice, not pro-life.

Get it?

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Reba

Why do you say, soldiers "should keep themselves"? I thought you supported soldiers venting?


How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options that they choose from? :confuse:

How is that "pro-choice?" What are the options? Who is choosing what? This is totally confusing.

I don't get how that is "pro-choice." If you are really pro-choice that means you equally support letting the troops choose either to go to war or refuse to go to war. Is that what you mean?

If you are pro-choice about the death penalty, then it means you equally support countries that do have the death penalty, and those that don't.



It seems that you are only "pro-choice" when that choice fits your viewpoint. That's not real choice. If you are truly pro-choice, then you have be satisfied with both hunter choices, "fun" and "food".


No, I don't "get it." How can you say that you are pro-choice but still criticize the soldiers who make their "choice" to make the military a career and volunteer for multiple tours in Iraq? That is NOT "pro-choice." That is YOUR way or the highway.

I would call a person "hypocrite" if that person used an American Army computer and internet to call American soldiers "killers of innocent people" while earning a paycheck from that same American Army. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Jiro

You didn't read carefully. I said your view is anti-war even though you're fixing up soldiers and you know they're going back to war to kill some more (no not the innocents... yes the enemies but expect some collateral damages).

Really? How do you know their experiences? Were you a soldier? Were you in combat zone? Hearing their stories and being in combat are different. I think you misunderstood their experiences. War is not black and white. Insurgents are not dressed with military uniform. They get traumatized because the insurgents USED the innocents as shield or bait and forced the soldiers to kill them. Also - they get traumatized by shooting at the enemies but that enemy was just a boy with AK-47. What is he supposed to do? Let that boy kills him??? It's not easy killing a little boy who is shooting you with AK-47 or wearing bomb straps.

Mafia? But you're the one who said they were being ordered to kill innocents. You're painting them as mafia hitmen. You have not clarified your statement on that issue - "they are being ordered to kill innocents." Do you realize that is a very strong accusation? That's what upsets me the most and our fellow veterans like Chase and Reba. Can you show me the proof of that accusation? The news about couple of soldiers raping little girl and murdering her and her family does not count as "being ordered to kill." I have heard of checkpoint horror stories where a car carrying a family did not stop as ordered and the soldiers had to open fire on them. they ALSO get traumatized by CONSTANT threat they have to deal with every single second of their life on the ground. They hear stories about a car carrying a family approaching to checkpoint area without slowing down and stopping and the soldiers did not want to shoot at them. Result? it exploded - a suicide bomber using his family as a cover. The soldiers at all checkpoints can't risk that chance.

If you are given an illegal order even directly from your superiors, it is your lawful duty to disobey. We tried German soldiers after WWII who often said "Well, I was just following orders." In my book - that stops being an excuse the seconds you know that those orders are wrong.

.....that's same thing. You're double-talking. When defending and protecting people, they are expected to kill somebody. Our war machines with big guns are not for decoration purpose. That's why i said military is in business of killing. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it as in business of "massacring innocents."

?????? Again - you misread and misunderstood my simple quote. My quote was "I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies." Get it? Most people signed up for honorable purpose and also for benefit purpose - a legitimate reason. There are handful of young people who signed up just because they thought it's cool to shoot something like they see in Rambo movies. They're an idiots. Beside.... war's ugly. What did you expect? I'd probably be traumatized and have nightmares too if I were in military. So what? it's part of the job. Everybody should be aware of it and be expected to have those when they sign up for it. Back in old time - that was a different story. They had a draft until 1970's.

no no it does matter. Killing soldiers and killing innocents do matter. Do not confuse enemies with innocents.

See above. A very serious accusation. Prove it.

uh... we did not have tanks, fighter jets, helicopters with big guns for decoration. That is designed to kill. duh?


no - my common sense and view on war is REALISTIC. Yours is not.

I complained along with Chase and Reba because you've made such strong accusation like being ordered to kill. There are many ignorant war-supporters I do not like either because their reasoning is ignorant and racist - "kill them f***king ragheads! blow them up!" At first - I supported the war because I was led to believed that Iraq had WMD. Now I'm against the war because it was a lie but that does not mean I want them out now because we're already in deep shit. That also doesn't mean I think we attacked for oil. These details do not concern me since I do not have all the facts on the table. I'll wait for legal proceedings to make a ruling out of this mess.

Do you want us to conquer Nazi in Germany and then leave Germany after war's over? Your country would be 100% communist and you'd be speaking Russian. Same thing - it is irresponsible of us to leave Iraq broken and defenseless. What can be done for now is to impeach Bush and arrest the war profiteers.


because you are nice and you are a civilian. These soldiers do not want to argue or dissent because by doing that - it's a treason or they may be subjected to violations of military laws. Ever considered that? Please do yourself a favor and stop talking about war issues with soldiers and your coworkers WHILE ON DUTY. Feel free to discuss about it with them during off-duty at some bars.

I get upset at anti-war protesters who make such strong accusation without proof and keep harping on "killing innocents." Reasonable and educated anti-war protesters would say that it is an illegal war and they do not work for US Army. But you work for US Army and you repeatedly said "why kill innocents? they're being ordered to kill innocents" - now you see why that makes your position less credible and hypocritical? You should know better like what I said about checkpoint horror stories.

My friend is a journalist and has a very liberal political view (quite an opposite of my view but not all) and is very very very against Iraq War. We frequently have very productive debates on most issues because his view and opinions have supports to back it up but you do not. At least he's not a hypocrite by dissenting against something while earning paycheck from same thing.

Jiro

I'm sorry but these statements do not make sense and they are inconsistent. My examples were pretty clear. I'll clarify again

This is what your view is like -
1. You are a hunter but do not believe in killing animals (either for food or fun).
2. You are a soldier but think is wrong to shoot at the enemy.
3. You are a weapon manufacturer but think war is wrong and killing is wrong.
4. You are a biological weapon scientist but thinks bio-weapon is wrong
5. You are a Christian devout but thinks premarital sex is ok.
6. You are an abortion doctor but thinks it is wrong to kill a fetus/baby.

get it? inconsistent, incredible, and a hypocrite.

The Highlander

Oh poor to Germany lady.

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Z'ha'dum is the homeworld of the Shadows. No one leaves the same as they arrived. --Delenn
If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die. — Kosh to John Sheridan

Liebling:-)))

Exactly, that´s why I said that I am a pro-choice, not pro-life... It would consider hyporcrite if I claim that I am pro-life because I am not fully pro-lifer because I support and respect their decision and choice instead of label them bad names, etc.

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Liebling:-)))

[quote]Re-read Jiro´s post

Originally Posted by jiro123
I don't really sympathize for idiots who think they're in for some explosion fun and then they ended up being traumatized, having nightmares. They're idiots - watching too much Rambo movies.

I questioned him either he mean pride/proud soliders? If he answer yes, then I would agree with him and suggest them to keep themselves instead of brag everyone... (accord Jiro´s post - "watch rambo movies too much")


You know what I am talking about.

Yes, when I personally disagree with war issues and respect their choice instead of label them in negative way.

I respect their law when I personally óppose the death penalty.

It´s too bad that you have the problem to see the logical.


If I am pro-life which mean I am against both hunter shot the animal for the meat and sport for the fun but I am pro choice because I support the hunter to shoot the animal for meat, not sport. I am not vegetarian but meat eater... Get it? If you can´t get it then I can´t help you.


It´s too bad that you are too much bitter to see the logical. I has the right to express my feeling and view on war issues, no matter either you like or not. This Forum is the public for debate.

I really feel sorry for you... Of course, I know you don´t like to hear when I say that you are a hyprocrite because you are against abortion and support death penalty and war... that´s why you are bitter toward me. Yes, you are bitter because I do not support war itself and disagree with war itself.

I do not need to repeat since I explained in my previous post yesterday about soliders feel bad for kill innocent people. You has no idea what and how soliders had through... You don´t care about them but yourself. All what you want to picture them as pride/proud soliders... That´s it. I accept what they are as long as they do not brags but need my support. I can see that you think yourself and like to provoke and tried to put ADers down. I had been polite with your bitter and obsess posts. Enough for now, I have nothing to say because I do not wish to repeat circle....

Oh yes, You complaint about anti-war supporters for put soliders down in previous posts... You when I showed you the links and explained why anti-war group are not for war. Now look at your own post... *shake my head* It´s bad when you don´t like my view over war issues... This is my POV... no matter either you like or not. Have you seen me bitter toward you as war-supporter? Nope, but respect you. Where is your respect on my POV but bitter, obsess and - all what you want to see after my job, not me as person who have feeling? Shame you! It doesn´t mean that I MUST agree ALL THE TIME because I work for US Army. Question: Do you must agree with US Government all the time because you live in America? This forum is the public, we all share/express our POV, no matter either you like or not... but do not need to take my posts personally. You don´t bother to say that it´s not okay for pride/proud soliders label soliders for refuse to go Iraq war as chicken or coward... ? You don´t bother to support some solider ADer vent/rant their feeling over their experience at other threads. All what you get is complaint... and You ignored solider ADer´s venting/ranting at other threads and when solider said that he want to go Iraq war... That´s it. I can´t image that you are a true christian as what you claim in other threads... All what I see through you is a hyprocrite. Due to all the respect, I do not wish to debate with you like this... All what I want to debate with agree to disagree in polite way...

I would consider myself as a hyprocrite when I claim that I am pro-lifer because Jiro123 think I am a pro-lifer which is not true... I explained him why I am not full pro-lifer because I support half and half which mean that I am a pro-choice. I thought you know what pro-choice is about...I thought Jillos convinced you the difference between pro-choice and pro-life at other thread. It´s not full pro-lifer when you are against abortion and support death penalty and war. It´s full pro-lifer if you are against everything...

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Jiro

I'm not exactly sure what do you mean "pride/proud" soldier. I thought I made myself clear. I'm just saying there are handful of soldiers who joined just for "fun" - a joy of killing and blowing stuff up but ended up being traumatized because it wasn't what they thought as it'd be like in movies.

But you have failed to see a flaw in your reasoning as we all pointed out.


Don't we all? that's being human. If they don't feel bad - they must be a psychopath. But you do not have any idea what and how the soldiers go thru either!!! Just because you worked with them does not mean you know better. Several of my close friends and family members are patriotic soldiers but does that mean I know better?


I don't care about them but myself? I don't care about my good friend who died in Iraq and came home in a pine box? I don't care about my close friend who barely survived in Afghanistan and came home with PTSD? I see.... They are certainly not bragging about it because it wasn't pretty and cool like a Rambo movie.


Because you use them that almost sound like facts/proof which we had to correct you. For example - you showed us link of U.S. mercenaries indiscriminately killing innocents on the subject of Iraq War relating to our soldiers. Why bring that up? How is that related to our soldiers? Are you putting our soldiers on same level as these dirty mercenaries - indiscriminately killing the innocents?

But how can you in your good conscience continue to work for an organization that is against your belief? US Army has LONG been killing in every wars for many years - either by retaliation or by special interests! You said - you only support troops just for defense purpose. Well you're in wrong business! You should be working for Swiss Army! You have a very strong opinion in war issue and yet you are working for and paid by OUR MILITARY! It's like a nurse who is very against abortion but works for abortion doctor or a person who does not believe in slaughtering animals but buys steaks! Why did you choose to work for US Army? Why not Swiss Army? Red Cross? They share exactly same value and belief as you. When you work for US Army, you do not have a privilege of saying things like "why kill innocents?" It makes yourself look like a hypocrite.

Who?


FYI - I'm a Buddhist...

I was not referring "Pro-Life" to abortion context but what I meant about that is that you do not support the termination of life by any means. For example - you do not support abortion unless mother's health is in danger. You do not support death penalty for whatever the reason - even Hitler. You do not support war unless for defense purpose. You do not support hunting unless it's for food.

Get it? Your stance is consistent with Pro-Life and largely Pro-Life.You are not a whole-fully pro-choice. I am not a pro-life because I support abortion and death penalty. There's no but like "I support abortion but only if mother's life is in danger." I support abortion and should be left entirely up to woman's choice to do whatever she wants with her womb. You do not - you choose to severely limit it. That is not a good definition of pro-choice. It's more like you are a Pro-Life but little bit of Pro-Choice.

All we're doing is correcting your stance and reasoning but we got offended by your anti-war remarks when you are working for and paid by Army. Mind you - just please be considerate and try not to discuss about anti-war subjects with any soldiers because they can get dishonorable discharged.

KarissaMann05

What a super-hot debate!

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Reba

I honestly don't. I've never heard the term "pro-choice" used in that way. I don't understand what war and hunting have to do with "pro-choice".


Constantly referring to American soldiers as killers of innocents is very negative, and not at all respectful.


Yes, I get it. If you are truly pro-choice, then it means you allow the hunter himself to choose the reason that he hunts, right?

It's still confusing though. "Pro-life" refers to human life, so I don't get the connection with hunters killing animals. Oh, well, that's off-topic anyway.


I never said that you couldn't express your feelings in this forum. Of course, I can express my feelings in this forum also.


I never said that I "support" wars or even the death penalty in all cases every where at all times, and I never posted that I'm against all abortions at all times.

It doesn't bother me that you are against the war in Iraq; you have that right. It does bother me that you don't support American soldiers even though they do support you. You say awful things about them "killing innocents" and yet it doesn't bother you to accept a paycheck from them.


You really don't know what you're talking about. How am I caring about myself by defending our soldiers?


Absolutely not. I see them all kinds of soldiers. Some are physically and/or emotionally traumatized, some are healthy; some don't want to go back, some do. There are a few bad eggs but I certainly don't portray them all as "killers of innocents"!


So you put conditions on your support for them. I see.


How is defending our service men and women putting down ADers? There are many other ADers who support American military members. I'm not the only one.


Is it forbidden for me to have an opinion that is different from your opinion? If you can accuse American soldiers of killing innocents, then I can defend them. I don't believe all our service men and women are killers of innocents. Not at all.


No. As an American citizen I have the right to address my grievances, and to vote. As a taxpayer, I have the right to complain about how my money is spent.


I don't label them as chicken or coward. If they refuse to obey orders, they'll have to face the consequences.


I didn't post anything against any soldier ADer vent/rant. I didn't complain about them. You must have me confused with someone else.





Yes, "pro-choice" is about abortion. I'm not discussing abortion in this thread. That is

Tousi

Oh, no; Leibling works for blood money, paid for by "killers of innocents!
Seriously, you are not doing well in this thread. I am embarrassed for you.

Liebling:-)))

[quote]I would suggest you to ask Reba for clarify what it mean because she is the one who brought those word up in previous post because I personally never experience with soliders who are pride/proud like this. I only experienced wth soliders for love their jobs and like to serve for their country to support and defense for the people and country. That´s it.


Yes, I ASK you question either it´s pride/proud soliders, you referring to or not? Did you know the word "pride/proud" mean? Due my experience in real life, soliders do not play rambo and enjoy killing etc like what you mentioned. You mentioned to make it look like that you know some soliders who wants to play rambo or whatever...


The posts, I quoted Reba, not your post... Okay, you ask for it...

Exactly that´s what I am trying to say that I never have any experience with soliders including my and my hubby´s Grandfather and Great grandfather who don´t have any feeling for kill innocent people.

for tell me that you ignored my many posts about my feeling for soliders what and how they had been through dozen of times... All what I see is I waste my time to repeat this to you... All what I see is you and some ADers have no feeling for soliders. That´s it.

Ha, you tell me for a first time that you has a solider friend? I work for almost 23 years and see soliders come and go and know and support their experiences
[/color][/font]

It´s Reba´s post, I quoted to, not your post. You confused Reba´s post with your post.

Why tell me here for a first time? I am sorry to hear about your friend and hope everything goes smooth for him.

It´s Reba who brought those word "pride/proud" up in previous post, not me. Because I never experience soliders who brags and play cool for want to go Iraq war for "fun". It´s very disgusitly. If it´s really true what and how some soliders did like that then I would not support them but Thank God, I never experience like this in my life.


I only answer and explain why because someone ASK me question. Is it forbidden to show the links and explain why....? The pictures of soliders and innocent people including children´s injuried shows no lie. I really can´t see the sense why you are complaint for when you support soliders and have a solider friend?


[/font][/color]

Your post make no sense...

Search thread yourself. We discussed in other thread last week.


So?


I think you don´t get it. Never mind.


Do you think you know everything and your correct, mine wrong? wow.... Interesting... Let you think whatever you want... It doesn´t bother me... Why can´t you and other ADers quote to answer Deafchaser´s post for pulled creator´s link if you think you know everything?

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