deafskeptic

Point taken.

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Deafness

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DaveM

Wow! Somehow I have gotten off track with the whole big government or the ADA thing.

My main problem with a "protected class" in hate crimes is that the crime of "hate" becomes independent of the original act of violence.

There are so many unintended consequences of that. One being that the act of say using the first amendment to say things that are awful, but still protected, can be a crime in and of itself.

I am a first amendment purist. There is nothing more important than free speech. Even when we disagree.

deafskeptic

I am agreed on that one even when i get answers I don't want to hear.

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Beowulf

It was a pleasure reading your posts. Welcome to the madhouse.

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jillio

Again, hate crime laws do not create a protected class. We already had, and still have, a protected class. That is why the inequities that occur based on that protected class have to be addressed remedially through laws that cover things like hate crimes.

Re: the First Amendment...I am a firm believer myself. And disagreement does not have to create censorship. It is perfectly possible to disagree and remain civil while engaging in intelligent debate.

DaveM

No. 10% less AFTER the passing of the law. That's a problem.

That means that before legislation that was supposed to help equalize the workplace, more disabled folks had jobs. And after the legislation was signed fewer and fewer disabled were able to find work.

If I tell a potential employer I have epilepsy prior to an interview, chances are he will pass me over because he/she now must accommodate me and if I am a poor worker I am very hard to fire.

And if I am fired, the employer is subject to a discrimination lawsuit.

So it becomes in the employers best interest to not hire me in the first place. I become a hassle.

It's not right, but unfortunately it's how it has become.

deafskeptic

I'm afraid many in the Deaf community would be rather skeptical of that one. Unemployment is higher than in the average population.

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jillio

But again, that does not separate the numbers of permanantly unemployable disabled individuals from employable disabled individuals. That fact alone artificially inflates the numbers.

A discrimination lawsuit regarding employment can be filed by those without protection under the ADA. Anyone can claim discrimination. Proving it under law is another story.

He has committed just as illegal an act by not hiring you based on your disability as he would be firing you because of it. That risk is the same.

DaveM

Jillio, I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one

I certainly understand your point.

I disagree because I feel that government is often more of a nuisance than a help in these matters.

DaveM

You guys are fast around here! I'm having a hard time keeping up!

jillio

If society was cabable of fixing the inequities, government wouldn't be needed to.

I can agree to disagree. No problem with that at all.

jillio

We get a lot of practice!

naisho

Kinda out of the scope of the topic, but there should at least be some regulation or checks in the financial market for the safety and protection of the general people.
Elliot Spitzer found the scheme the banks were playing in deregulation.
Iran was buying/building ballistic missiles using the money in those banks.
Freddie/Fanny, remember them? What would have happened if we left them do to their stuff?

DaveM

Sadly, growing up in Philadelphia and personally working in the poorest of poor neighborhoods much of my views come from watching neighborhoods get worse and worse. Taxpayers spend more and more, and sadly things only get worse.

What's cool is that you and I want the same outcome - tolerance, equality, and fairness. My views on how to get there a little different.

I always try to be an optimist though

DaveM

Oh naisho, just the words Fanny and Freddy can turn this post into 50 or so pages from me alone. Lol!

Don't get me started with that can of worms

jillio

I try to be an optimist, but there are days that it is danged difficult when you see the ignorance and the hatred being perpetrated first hand. But hey, gotta keep hope.

Regarding the neighborhoods you referred to...throwing money at the problem is not the solution, either. The very stratification of our society has to be addressed. Just throwing money is like putting a bandaid on a festering wound. You're still gonna loose that arm.

kokonut

Same here. Covered that a few times.

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"... turns out they are telling the truth."

Foxrac

Gay people who support anti-gay republicans are just like blacks who support KKK.

The gay conservative in this article is just hateful himself.

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DaveM

How do you feel about gay people who support pro gay conservatives?

President Obama is anti gay marriage. Former Vice President Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage. Something to think about.

President Bill Clinton signed DOMA and DADT.

You shouldn't judge if that gay conservative is hateful.

It was the Log Cabin Republicans who took DADT to Federal court and won. That is the reason it was overturned once being ruled unconstitutional.

saywhatkid

One thing I haven''t seen mentioned; this gay Conservative must not have any plans to marry. He is in the wrong boat, so to speak, if he wanted a spouse.

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Foxrac

1) That's not what I was talking. Gay conservatives who support anti-gay republicans, for example, Bachmann, Perry, Cain, Gingrich, Santorum and Palin.

2) Obama is personally against on gay marriage so he doesn't bring up to political. He supports marriage equality at political side, not personal side.

3) DOMA passed with more than 2/3 votes from the congress so effectively override the presidential veto. Bill Clinton has no choice to allow gay to openly serve in military because the congress weren't support so they used DADT to lesser strict from pre-DADT era (complete ban and require everyone to answer if they are gay).

I don't say about gay conservatives are hateful, but they are hate to themselves because they support anti-gay republicans and gay whoever support republican is minority.

The case about DADT isn't rule yet by US Supreme Court and the congress already repealed it, also Obama signed into law.

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Beowulf

Surely there is a GOP candidate who would fulfill everyone's desires?
Nawww, not gonna think about that.

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Reba

DaveM said he supported equal punishment. No more, no less.

So how exactly does enacting a hate crime resolve that inequity?

Suppose:

1. White man beats black woman.

2. White man beats white woman.

3. Black man beats black woman.

4. Black man beats white woman.

(To keep it simple, I won't list all possible combinations with Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.)

Which one(s) is(are) hate crimes?

So-called hate crimes aren't going to resolve that. Suppose it's a white pimp beating a white hooker. The victim belongs to a marginalized group. Can we call that a hate crime? No? So, the hooker still won't get equal treatment, according to your description.

Then we should be working on enforcing the equitable use of current laws and adjudication rather than making up new laws that themselves will not be equally applied.

jillio

Damn! That's scary!

Reba

There are several reasons, not the least of which is accessibility of the victim and crime scene.

I doubt that the serial killer cares about the equality of justice or not for the victim.

Reba

Oh, yeah.

Reba

Not at all.

Making up new laws that apply to limited groups is NOT the way to equalize justice. That's ignoring and avoiding dealing with the real problems of the courts.

If the juries and judges are biased, how is tacking on hate crime laws help the victim? If they are truly as biased as you say, then they will just decide "not guilty" on the charges of the hate crimes, and we're back to square one.

Reba

Sigh . . . It seems so rude to talk about another ADers as though they weren't present.

Like how "able" people talk about "disabled" people in the third person as though they weren't present.

jillio

Then you tell me, if laws insuring equal justice for all populations in this country are not in place, how do we achieve equal justice under the law. Even with hate crime laws, we don't have equal justice under the law for all people in this country. So tell me, how do we achieve that? How do we insure that a GLTD youth who was beated with a ball bat for no other reason that the fact that he was gay receive justice in proportion to the pure hatred that motivated the crime?

DeafCaroline

Well, there's a difference between being anti-gay and being anti-marriage for gays.

One can support a Republican political party even if they don't agree with all of its platforms.