A hate crime.... - Page 2

DeafCaroline · 11-14-2011, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Which ones?

Either/both.

kokonut · 11-14-2011, 09:17 PM

I asked a legit question.

kokonut · 11-14-2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

Either/both.

Well, the beating was undeserved. No one deserves that beating regardless.

whoops, the second article, I've known about Coulter's, not a surprise.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

I saw that article earlier in the day, kokonut. Very disturbing.

I'm a libertarian so I'm pretty much in favor of a smaller, more efficient government. I'm also very liberal on social issues.

The idea of hate crimes has always rubbed me the wrong way. Social engineering or trying to legislate tolerance is a slippery slope.

Even though I abhor racism and homophobia, the idea of placing more value on another human being is the exact opposite of equality. All crimes are hate crimes.

I'm not sure what happened there would qualify as a hate crime, but I guarantee you if he wasn't a conservative there would be widespread outrage over this.

It's a shame that some people on the left seem to have selective outrage.

Over generalization. All crimes are not hate crimes. There is a specific set of criteria to be met to be classified as a hate crime.

So, you would be satisfied with marginalized persons being given less justice in a crime committed against them?

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

Ok, I will have to read up on here. Are you one of the few conservatives?

Koko gives conservatives a bad name.

**deafskeptic** · 11-14-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Koko gives conservatives a bad name.

Big time.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Well, the beating was undeserved. No one deserves that beating regardless.

whoops, the second article, I've known about Coulter's, not a surprise.

Could you describe a situation in which a beating is deserved?

Totally noncommittal. Just waiting for someone to post something you can ditto. Think for a change, and engage in actual discussion.

DaveM · 11-14-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Over generalization. All crimes are not hate crimes. There is a specific set of criteria to be met to be classified as a hate crime.

So, you would be satisfied with marginalized persons being given less justice in a crime committed against them?

I understand the concept and the well meaning aspect of a hate crime, jillio. Often times well meaning legislation has unintended negative consequences.

I don't like ANYONE being given less justice. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes "marginalized"? Justice should be equal for all. Hate crimes come close to being very Orwellian and in some cases border on "thought" crimes.

A woman being assaulted in a park alone is just as disgusting as someone beating or assaulting a gay person.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

I understand the concept and the well meaning aspect of a hate crime, jillio. Often times well meaning legislation has unintended negative consequences.

I don't like ANYONE being given less justice. Who is the arbiter of what constitutes "marginalized"? Justice should be equal for all. Hate crimes come close to being very Orwellian and in some cases border on "thought" crimes.

A woman being assaulted in a park alone is just as disgusting as someone beating or assaulting a gay person.

So, Blacks, women, the GLTB populations aren't marginalized?

And hate crime laws can be applied to the majority population, as well. Intent is always a part of the criminal charge and the punishment.

**mbrek** · 11-14-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Could you describe a situation in which a beating is deserved?

I wouldn't feel bad if a child molester got a beating.

DaveM · 11-14-2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

So, Blacks, women, the GLTB populations aren't marginalized?

Yes jillio. Blacks, women, and the GLTB are VERY marginalized.

That doesn't mean that one life is more important or valuable than another. There are unintended negative consequences of well meaning legislation.

kokonut · 11-14-2011, 09:37 PM

I'm impressed!

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

Yes jillio. Blacks, women, and the GLTB are VERY marginalized.

That doesn't mean that one life is more important or valuable than another. There are unintended negative consequences of well meaning legislation.

But it does mean that they are at far greater risk at being attacked or murdered just because of their marginalized status. Criminal codes and punsihment figure that in.

Hate crime laws serve to equalize that which is inherently unequal.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

I'm impressed!

Can you form sentences of more than two words without a link?

**deafskeptic** · 11-14-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

But it does mean that they are at far greater risk at being attacked or murdered just because of their marginalized status. Criminal codes and punsihment figure that in.

Hate crime laws serve to equalize that which is inherently unequal.

Exactly.

**saywhatkid** · 11-14-2011, 09:45 PM

Where is the outrage over the rest of the hate crimes against gay men? Why only this one? From (because I am lazy) Wiki: US In 2008, 17.6% of hate crimes were based on the victim's perceived sexual orientation. Of those crimes, 72.23% were violent in nature. 4,704 crimes were committed due to racial bias and 1,617 were committed due to sexual orientation.

I cannot recall one single post supporting an anti-gay hate crime coming from the OP. Only when Ann Coulter's name is mentioned do we see the real purpose of posting this article. It never ends...

And this story might have drawn more interest in the GLBT section. Just saying.

DaveM · 11-14-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

But it does mean that they are at far greater risk at being attacked or murdered just because of their marginalized status. Criminal codes and punsihment figure that in.

Hate crime laws serve to equalize that which is inherently unequal.

And what of the elderly or weak? Criminals prey on easy targets.

When you say hate crimes serve to equalize that which is inherently equal, that's my problem with "government equalizing." Never a good thing.

Whenever government tries to equalize, the opposite tends to happen.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

And what of the elderly or weak? Criminals prey on easy targets.

When you say hate crimes serve to equalize that which is inherently equal, that's my problem with "government equalizing." Never a good thing.

Whenever government tries to equalize, the opposite tends to happen.

What crimes, specifically, are you referring to in reference to the elderly or the weak? And please operationally define "weak". That term is far to vague to address.

Then, you support lesser sentencing for those of marginalized groups that are attacked and beaten for no other reason than the fact that they are part of a marginalized group.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Where is the outrage over the rest of the hate crimes against gay men? Why only this one? From (because I am lazy) Wiki: US In 2008, 17.6% of hate crimes were based on the victim's perceived sexual orientation. Of those crimes, 72.23% were violent in nature. 4,704 crimes were committed due to racial bias and 1,617 were committed due to sexual orientation.

I cannot recall one single post supporting an anti-gay hate crime coming from the OP. Only when Ann Coulter's name is mentioned do we see the real purpose of posting this article. It never ends...

And this story might have drawn more interest in the GLBT section. Just saying.

OP is afraid of the GLTB section.

rockin'robin · 11-14-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

OP is afraid of the GLTB section.

**saywhatkid** · 11-14-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

OP is afraid of the GLTB section.

I hear Ann Coulter is signing autographs over there.

**deafskeptic** · 11-14-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

I hear Ann Coulter is signing autographs over there.

I'm not sure that will be enough to lure our OP over there.

DeafCaroline · 11-14-2011, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

And what of the elderly or weak? Criminals prey on easy targets.

When you say hate crimes serve to equalize that which is inherently equal, that's my problem with "government equalizing." Never a good thing.

Whenever government tries to equalize, the opposite tends to happen.

Everyone is equal under the law.

The worry is the boundary of hate crime laws. What defines hate and what makes it a crime exactly? If I called you an asshole because you have blue hair, is that a hate crime? Or am I entitled to free speech?

It's a bit of a grey area that can be easily abused if not strictly defined and limited to acts of stalking , harassment, and viiolence. As in actual acts that shouldn't need to be categorized as hate crime nor require its own set of laws in order to punish the offender who is breaking the law designed to protect ALL people.

It's sad there has to be a category for hate crimes, that must indicate how prevalent it is.

DaveM · 11-14-2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

What crimes, specifically, are you referring to in reference to the elderly or the weak? And please operationally define "weak". That term is far to vague to address.

Then, you support lesser sentencing for those of marginalized groups that are attacked and beaten for no other reason than the fact that they are part of a marginalized group.

No, jillion. Of course I don't support lesser punishment, I support equal punishment for equal crimes. Murder = murder. Assault = assault.

When a husband murders his wife in a fit of rage, how is that less important than if a gay basher murders a homosexual in a fit of rage?

You feel that because gays are more marginalized that the life of a gay individual is more important than the battered wife? Therefore should be punished more?

Once you start valuing one human life as more important than another, or allowing a loose interpretation on what goes on in a criminals head, you're getting into the territory of "thought crime."

Violence against anybody is disgusting and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Always. No matter race, religion, sexuality, or age.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

No, jillion. Of course I don't support lesser punishment, I support equal punishment for equal crimes. Murder = murder. Assault = assault.

When a husband murders his wife in a fit of rage, how is that less important than if a gay basher murders a homosexual in a fit of rage?

You feel that because are more marginalized that the life of a gay individual is more important than the battered wife? Therefore should be punished more?

Once you start valuing one human life as more important than another, or allowing a loose interpretation on what goes on in a criminals head, you're getting into the territory of "thought crime."

Violence against anybody is disgusting and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Always. No matter race, religion, sexuality, or age.

If you don't support lesser punishment then you must support hate crime laws. You are contradicting yourself.

There are special category of law for domestic violence crimes. It adds time to the sentence. There are special categories for various types of murders that increase the sentencing. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. Like I said, intent always is a factor in criminal charges. Why should that be less so for marginalized populations?

DeafCaroline · 11-14-2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

No, jillion. Of course I don't support lesser punishment, I support equal punishment for equal crimes. Murder = murder. Assault = assault.

When a husband murders his wife in a fit of rage, how is that less important than if a gay basher murders a homosexual in a fit of rage?

You feel that because are more marginalized that the life of a gay individual is more important than the battered wife? Therefore should be punished more?

Once you start valuing one human life as more important than another, or allowing a loose interpretation on what goes on in a criminals head, you're getting into the territory of "thought crime."

Violence against anybody is disgusting and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Always. No matter race, religion, sexuality, or age.

What jillio is saying is that punishment for offenders against gays, prostitutes, addicts and minorities tend to be less severe because of biases against them. Hate crime laws were designed to ensure they receive equal attention and justice. For example, black women getting beaten is often ignored by cops. They think it's typical ghetto behaviour. But a white woman getting beaten? They'll come to her aid, if she's not a working street girl that is.

If people were truly equal under the eyes of the law - they'd be receiving equal attention to their cases, and be given equal priority and equal right to fair counsel. But that's not the case. Because they are marginalized by society.

It's not an issue of comparing similiar crimes and saying they are equally horrible. They're horrible no matter what, the issue is the discrepancy in justice between them.

kokonut · 11-14-2011, 10:14 PM

DaveM,

Rush wrote an article that pretty described about the problems of attaching the word "hate crime" to an event and notes how it's all skewed to one side:

Quote:

"Were this a white-on-black hate crime," said Rush, "there is no escaping the fact that it would be national news for months, and every prominent black career civil rights activist in America would be calling for the death penalty."
.
.
"Certainly, this crime is no more or less heinous than would be a white-on-black hate crime," said Rush,"
.
.
As Rush recently said in an interview with Family Security Matters, "The Left has pretty much got the reins on the press, and a lot of the news bureau chiefs and the journalists are likeminded people who went to a lot of the same universities, they were schooled in hard Left journalism. They really have lost that concern for what the truth is."

'Hate crime' charges filed over heinous attack

I suggest you read what Mr. Rush has to say. Very enlightening read.

**deafskeptic** · 11-14-2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeafCaroline

What jillio is saying is that punishment for offenders against gays, prostitutes, addicts and minorities tend to be less severe because of biases against them. Hate crime laws were designed to ensure they receive equal attention and justice. For example, black women getting beaten is often ignored by cops. They think it's typical ghetto behaviour. But a white woman getting beaten? They'll come to her aid, if she's not a working street girl that is.

If people were truly equal under the eyes of the law - they'd be receiving equal attention to their cases, and be given equal priority and equal right to fair counsel. But that's not the case. Because they are marginalized by society.

It's not an issue of comparing similiar crimes and saying they are equally horrible. They're horrible no matter what, the issue is the discrepancy in justice between them.

Discrepancy is the key word there. There's a reason why many serial killers go after prostitutes instead of socialites.

jillio · 11-14-2011, 10:15 PM

Rush?

Now there's a source to use in the discussion of hatred. He spews enough of it to put bucks in his pocket!

kokonut · 11-14-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

I hear Ann Coulter is signing autographs over there.

She might except she'll probably get beat up.

11-14-2011, 09:17 PM	#32 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	I asked a legit question. __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

11-14-2011, 09:37 PM	#42 (permalink)
kokonut Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 15,348	I'm impressed! __________________ Before AD. After AD. "Restriction on free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us." -Thurgood Marshall, former Supreme Court Justice "... turns out they are telling the truth."

11-14-2011, 09:45 PM	#46 (permalink)
saywhatkid Emerging from the sun Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: In space Posts: 7,271 Blog Entries: 2	Where is the outrage over the rest of the hate crimes against gay men? Why only this one? From (because I am lazy) Wiki: US In 2008, 17.6% of hate crimes were based on the victim's perceived sexual orientation. Of those crimes, 72.23% were violent in nature. 4,704 crimes were committed due to racial bias and 1,617 were committed due to sexual orientation. I cannot recall one single post supporting an anti-gay hate crime coming from the OP. Only when Ann Coulter's name is mentioned do we see the real purpose of posting this article. It never ends... And this story might have drawn more interest in the GLBT section. Just saying. jillio and DeafCaroline like this. __________________ "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves." ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13

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11-14-2011, 10:15 PM	#59 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	Rush? Now there's a source to use in the discussion of hatred. He spews enough of it to put bucks in his pocket!