A hate crime.... - Page 15

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

You are avoiding the question. Jiro mentioned that the state of NJ has had several Republican governors during the 1980's through today. You are beating the drums loudly that the Democratic mayors passed unequal drug laws from their city desk, and have absolute powers that have corrupted them. If you leave out the party, it might make your argument a bit more believeable.

There are many members here that you can join with to bash Liberals. Feel free to do so.

I'm sorry, I'm not avoiding the question, I'm trying to keep up with you all!

I'm also not bashing liberals. But the fact remains that the poorest cities in America today have been run by Democrats for decades.

Now If I were bashing libs, I would suggest that they are responsible for the decline in American cities. But I'm not!

I'm suggesting that a non accountable monolithic political machine that will always win an election, unchallenged, breeds corruption!

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

So you are telling me that Democratic mayors, working with Republican governors, passed laws together? They cooperated?

Yet the blame falls on the Democrats because they had power that corrupted them?

See where I'm coming from on the contradictions?

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Democrats have not held power consistently through history. So, using your politicized viewpoint, explain please, the long history of inequitable application of laws in this country, and the creation of laws with disproportionate negative effect on minorities.

It's not just the mayors, or local city government, or governors.

I'm saying that the call for harsher sentences also came at the wishes from the community! People themselves were naturally afraid of the epidemic.

But what happened in the crack case is what happens every time there's a prohibition type law.

When I speak of unintended consequences of well meaning laws, this is my exact point.

The consequence of trying to protect the African American community from crime led to disproportionate jail time!

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

I'm sorry, I'm not avoiding the question, I'm trying to keep up with you all!

I'm also not bashing liberals. But the fact remains that the poorest cities in America today have been run by Democrats for decades.

Now If I were bashing libs, I would suggest that they are responsible for the decline in American cities. But I'm not!

I'm suggesting that a non accountable monolithic political machine that will always win an election, unchallenged, breeds corruption!

Ever wonder why those poor cities keep electing Dem mayors? So they can have a modicum of control over their existence on the local level because the Repubs in the State positions are killing them.

**Dixie** · 11-15-2011, 05:29 PM

Bilateral cooperation between Democrats and Republicans hasnt been exactly successful if you want to call it that. It's been recorded in history.

It's difficult to get any laws passed with 'unified' Democrats and Republicans. They disagree on just about everything. In my rural area mayors usually don't say they are either Democrat or Republican, they just run for office and it's decided by a simple majority vote. The bigger races such as for sheriff, or for state representative will have people deciding which party they are.

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

See where I'm coming from on the contradictions?

Just for you, Jillio:

Had Philly, Detroit, Camden, been run by Republicans, the outcomes would be the same!

There is no incentive to change anything when there is no threat of being thrown of of office.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

It's not just the mayors, or local city government, or governors.

I'm saying that the call for harsher sentences also came at the wishes from the community! People themselves were naturally afraid of the epidemic.

But what happened in the crack case is what happens every time there's a prohibition type law.

When I speak of unintended consequences of well meaning laws, this is my exact point.

The consequence of trying to protect the African American community from crime led to disproportionate jail time!

You said the key word. Fear. I will add Unreasonable to Fear. Based not on fact but emotional manipulation.

No, the inequitable application of laws in an attempt to protect the white community from the big, bad African Americans is what led to disproportionate jail time.

I'm going to refer you back to post #416. I'd like you to address it, please.

**saywhatkid** · 11-15-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

It's not just the mayors, or local city government, or governors.

I'm saying that the call for harsher sentences also came at the wishes from the community! People themselves were naturally afraid of the epidemic.

But what happened in the crack case is what happens every time there's a prohibition type law.

When I speak of unintended consequences of well meaning laws, this is my exact point.

The consequence of trying to protect the African American community from crime led to disproportionate jail time!

Right. It goes all the way to the top. I recall that this was the Reagan "Trickled On economics" timeframe, followed by the GHW Bush years. I can still see Nancy Reagan with her "Just say no!" advertisements.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

Just for you, Jillio:

Had Philly, Detroit, Camden, been run by Republicans, the outcomes would be the same!

There is no incentive to change anything when there is no threat of being thrown of of office.

That doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting yourself. I think SWK pointed it out rather nicely.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Right. It goes all the way to the top. I recall that this was the Reagan "Trickled On economics" timeframe, followed by the GHW Bush years. I can still see Nancy Reagan with her "Just say no!" advertisements.

Yeah, that one was a big success!

**TXgolfer** · 11-15-2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Did you notice one major point from the data?
There are more white people than anyone else in the USA, by far, and they're the least of all categories to be in jail. That is really, really weird to see this -- (well, not really) but it does prove a point: whites are the most least likely to be in jail despite the largest amount of people.

Then what about the women? There is also a larger differential in the Asian population yet Asians are a protected minority by "Hate crime laws"

It's funny because people are arguing Crack vs Coke saying they have different sentences based on race, yet they WANT different sentences for the same assault if race was involved. Strange logic

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Ever wonder why those poor cities keep electing Dem mayors? So they can have a modicum of control over their existence on the local level because the Repubs in the State positions are killing them.

#1 Yes I do wonder why poor communities continue to vote for politicians who have made things worse for them year after year.

#2 C'mon, Repubs in State positions aren't killing them. Now you sound very biased.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Then what about the women? There is also a larger differential in the Asian population yet Asians are a protected minority by "Hate crime laws"

It's funny because people are arguing Crack vs Coke saying they have different sentences based on race, yet they WANT different sentences for the same assault if race was involved. Strange logic

Because one is based on inequitable sentencing as a result of race, and the other is based on equalizing justice that has been disproportionately available based on institutional racism.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

#1 Yes I do wonder why poor communities continue to vote for politicians who have made things worse for them year after year.

#2 C'mon, Repubs in State positions aren't killing them. Now you sound very biased.

It is not the mayors that are making things worse.

Yes, they are.

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

Right. It goes all the way to the top. I recall that this was the Reagan "Trickled On economics" timeframe, followed by the GHW Bush years. I can still see Nancy Reagan with her "Just say no!" advertisements.

Hmm, I do remember the Reagan and Bush I years. And I long for them again.

Right now there are more people on food stamps then ever before, record high unemployment in the African American community, A national debt approaching 15 trillion dollars, etc....

BTW, I also long for the Clinton days when he left us with a surplus. Welfare reform, tax cuts, deregulation, and free trade.

"The era of Big Government is over" - Bill Clinton 1996

**saywhatkid** · 11-15-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Then what about the women? There is also a larger differential in the Asian population yet Asians are a protected minority by "Hate crime laws"

It's funny because people are arguing Crack vs Coke saying they have different sentences based on race, yet they WANT different sentences for the same assault if race was involved. Strange logic

I think it is if race is the reason for the attack.

**TXgolfer** · 11-15-2011, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is still a dead body. You seem to think that the results of the crime are all that matters. Dead body is a dead body. Murder, pure and simple..

Nah that is why we have different laws such as manslaughter. You are just not thinking it through.

Quote:

a person beaten is a person beaten

Yep, but there are different degrees of beating of course and the punishment varies. But as I said "assuming all other factors are the same"

**Dixie** · 11-15-2011, 05:44 PM

We can have a return for the Clinton days if Hillary runs for office and wins.

**TXgolfer** · 11-15-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You didn't REALLY say this, did you?

.

I certainly did, Charging a person with an additional "hate charge" in a violent crime in no way affects the sentencing in Crack vs Coke.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

Hmm, I do remember the Reagan and Bush I years. And I long for them again.

Right now there are more people on food stamps then ever before, record high unemployment in the African American community, A national debt approaching 15 trillion dollars, etc....

BTW, I also long for the Clinton days when he left us with a surplus. Welfare reform, tax cuts, deregulation, and free trade.

"The era of Big Government is over" - Bill Clinton 1996

To say 'I long for the Bush and Reagan years again" and show concern for the African American community is diametrically opposed.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I certainly did, Charging a person with an additional "hate charge" in a violent crime in no way affects the sentencing in Crack vs Coke.

You are really confused now.

That is not what you were replying to earlier.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Nah that is why we have different laws such as manslaughter. You are just not thinking it through.

Yep, but there are different degrees of beating of course and the punishment varies. But as I said "assuming all other factors are the same"

And that is why we have difference in sentencing based on hate crimes.

Check and check mate.

***naisho*** · 11-15-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Then what about the women? There is also a larger differential in the Asian population yet Asians are a protected minority by "Hate crime laws"

It's funny because people are arguing Crack vs Coke saying they have different sentences based on race, yet they WANT different sentences for the same assault if race was involved. Strange logic

I honestly don't know all the reasons why the ratio of men:women in jail are 14:1. There could be a lot of social, psychological factors or something going on during the court. Social-psychology would indicate reason for being involved in a crime: men may vary from women for why they commit crimes.

Like if a guy needed money, he might rob a kwik-e mart or the bank. A woman on the other hand can just become promiscuous as a service for money, slave herself. Who is more likely to be caught and jailed?

It makes me think of women who suspectedly or convictedly thought to have murdered their children: (Casey Anthony, Susan Smith, maybe even JonBenet Ramsey case) You on the other hand, as a male, might not see yourself kiling your children - domestically or corporally punishment you might be more inclined to do, but maybe a woman is more likely to kill them. I don't have numbers for these, but it is just a thought in my head for an explanation to why this 1:14 figure seems weird.

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

To say 'I long for the Bush and Reagan years again" and show concern for the African American community is diametrically opposed.

I've spent a large part of my life working in a North Philadelphia black community trying to help dually diagnosed drug addicts.

I've watched year after year go by and the conditions continue to get worse.

I've watched politicians in bed with the teachers union continue to produce schools that dropout rates get higher and higher every year.

I've watched politicians protect teachers unions who donate to their campaigns by preventing school reform or school choice.

Preventing poor minority students from getting the same quality education that wealthy white kids in the suburbs get.

And I watch the cycle of poverty continue...

It's very sad, and I have become very cynical over the years because I have witnessed it first hand.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

I honestly don't know all the reasons why the ratio of men:women in jail are 14:1. There could be a lot of social, psychological factors or something going on during the court. Social-psychology would indicate reason for being involved in a crime: men may vary from women for why they commit crimes.

Like if a guy needed money, he might rob a kwik-e mart or the bank. A woman on the other hand can just become promiscuous as a service for money, slave herself. Who is more likely to be caught and jailed?

It makes me think of women who suspectedly or convictedly thought to have murdered their children: (Casey Anthony, Susan Smith, maybe even JonBenet Ramsey case) You on the other hand, as a male, might not see yourself kiling your children - domestically or corporally punishment you might be more inclined to do, but maybe a woman is more likely to kill them. I don't have numbers for these, but it is just a thought in my head for an explanation to why this 1:14 figure seems weird.

Well, you are on the right track.

rolling7 · 11-15-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Wow, DD and other statisticians, check this one out.

If we say that crime is equal and happens to everyone equally (ie, 50% good 50% bad random figure) then it would say that the percentage of people in jail should reflect or be equal to the population, right?

Well, I combined both the census and the BoP stats and apparently it's not so. Are blacks, indians, and spanish people really more violent than white and asian folks?

If they aren't, then why are there more in jail?

Code:

Blacks:        38,929,319 (12.6% of USA population)
...in jail:    82,595    (37.9% of jail population)
Percentage of black population in jail: 0.212%

Hispanics:    50,477,594 (16.3% of USA population)
...in jail:    43,839 (34.3% of jail population*)
Percentage of spanish popluation in jail: 0.086%*

Whites:        196,817,552 (63.7% of USA population)
...in jail:    31,058 (24.3% of jail population)
Percentage of white population in jail: 0.015%

Native Indians:    2,932,248 (0.9% of USA population)
...in jail:    4,035    (1.9% of jail population)
Percentage of indian population in jail: 0.137%

Asians:        14,674,252 (4.8% of USA population)
...in jail:    3,641    (1.7% of jail population)
Percentage of asian population in jail: 0.024%

* likely includes hispanics that are detained whose native citizenships are from mexico or south america, etc, so have to be careful of what to assume from that data.

Thank you so very much for this post. I can read and understand it completely.
What the data does NOT show is the reason women are in jail.
So see if you can get jillio to take a good look at your data because her post #631 is a royal screw-up.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveM

I've spent a large part of my life working in a North Philadelphia black community trying to help dually diagnosed drug addicts.

I've watched year after year go by and the conditions continue to get worse.

I've watched politicians in bed with the teachers union continue to produce schools that dropout rates get higher and higher every year.

I've watched politicians protect teachers unions who donate to their campaigns by preventing school reform or school choice.

Preventing poor minority students from getting the same quality education that wealthy white kids in the suburbs get.

And I watch the cycle of poverty continue...

It's very sad, and I have become very cynical over the years because I have witnessed it first hand.

Perhaps it is because you are attempting to help them from your own ethnocentric perspective. That is rarely effective.

I would have to know more about your program, and more about the theorerical perspective you use, as well as your credentials and your particular thereotical perspective and how you apply it to your treatment modalities, but if you are willing to provide that, we can engage in an indepth discussion of perhaps why the program isn't working.

jillio · 11-15-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

Thank you so very much for this post. I can read and understand it completely.
What the data does NOT show is the reason women are in jail.
So see if you can get jillio to take a good look at your data because her post #631 is a royal screw-up.

Someone get the orderlies.

**TXgolfer** · 11-15-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

I think it is if race is the reason for the attack.

Oh so

Quote:

Dear Victim,

While we realize you sustained severe injuries when your neighbor, who hated the color you painted your house, lost his temper and attacked you with a bat. It is our opinion we can not charge your attacker with the same crime as Jim Bob Bubba because Jim Bob Bubba's crime resulted from his dislike for skin color rather than paint color.

Best Wishes
Social Justice

Got it

DaveM · 11-15-2011, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Perhaps it is because you are attempting to help them from your own ethnocentric perspective. That is rarely effective.

I would have to know more about your program, and more about the theorerical perspective you use, as well as your credentials and your particular thereotical perspective and how you apply it to your treatment modalities, but if you are willing to provide that, we can engage in an indepth discussion of perhaps why the program isn't working.

Lol! I wasn't trying to help them from a "ethnocentric" point of view. I worked in an African American owned, African American staffed drug rehabilitation out patient facility. In the poorest area of North Philadelphia.

11-15-2011, 05:29 PM	#425 (permalink)
Dixie May I be found in Him Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 13,266	Bilateral cooperation between Democrats and Republicans hasnt been exactly successful if you want to call it that. It's been recorded in history. It's difficult to get any laws passed with 'unified' Democrats and Republicans. They disagree on just about everything. In my rural area mayors usually don't say they are either Democrat or Republican, they just run for office and it's decided by a simple majority vote. The bigger races such as for sheriff, or for state representative will have people deciding which party they are. __________________ Oh, you will. It is all a dream and since matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the dreams must be real in all their myriad forms. -Beowulf This Delicate Thing God Has Made *The world is measured in peasants; smaller than a unicorn but, bigger than a tidbit!*

11-15-2011, 05:44 PM	#438 (permalink)
Dixie May I be found in Him Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Arkansas Posts: 13,266	We can have a return for the Clinton days if Hillary runs for office and wins. jillio and deafskeptic like this. __________________ Oh, you will. It is all a dream and since matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the dreams must be real in all their myriad forms. -Beowulf This Delicate Thing God Has Made *The world is measured in peasants; smaller than a unicorn but, bigger than a tidbit!*

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