The Origins of Homosexuality - Page 17

jillio · 11-20-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

People may change their interpretation but that doesn't change the original content or intent. That is, the Author and His Word don't change even if societies change.

Yes, it does. Just because you say so doesn't change it.

Homosexual acts are not a biological condition.

The original content and intent must be taken in context and time in which it was written. The very fact that societies change is why it must be taken in the context inad the time in which it was written.

God pronounces a good many things "abominable" that modern day Christians do on a regular basis with no care for the fact that their precious Bible has pronounced them abominable. It is far too easy to pick and choose that which you will follow just the "Bible told you so." If you do not follow to the letter, every word written in the Bible, refrain from all acts that were pronounced "abominable", and never waver, then you have to no right to pick and choose those which support your own biases, prejudices, and fears. That is using your religion as a convenience.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The original content and intent must be taken in context and time in which it was written.

God wrote His Word in the context of omniscience and the time was eternity.

Quote:

The very fact that societies change is why it must be taken in the context inad the time in which it was written.

Societies change but God isn't part of a society. He's unchangeable.

Quote:

God pronounces a good many things "abominable" that modern day Christians do on a regular basis with no care for the fact that their precious Bible has pronounced them abominable.

Those laws, such as the dietary laws, God gave to His chosen people the Jews. They were never intended for the worldwide population. Those laws were intended to keep His chosen people separate and protected from the contamination of the world. Those laws, outside of the Ten Commandments (which are universal) were never intended for Christians. Passages in the New Testament explain that to the new Christians who were debating that themselves. There was contention about whether or not Gentile believers had to be circumcised and observe the dietary laws. It was explained and resolved. They did not have to do those things to become Christians.

Quote:

It is far too easy to pick and choose that which you will follow just the "Bible told you so." If you do not follow to the letter, every word written in the Bible, refrain from all acts that were pronounced "abominable", and never waver, then you have to no right to pick and choose those which support your own biases, prejudices, and fears. That is using your religion as a convenience.

As I explained above, that's not what happens.

In the New Testament, sexual purity is stressed, not deleted.

**sallylou** · 11-20-2011, 03:01 PM

If religion never changed, women would be second class citizens in religion. Wait. That's true.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

If religion never changed, women would be second class citizens in religion. Wait. That's true.

I can't speak for the generic "religion" but I know that the God of Christians doesn't want women to be treated as second-class citizens. Since becoming a Christian, I've never felt that I was a second-class citizen in God's realm.

**sallylou** · 11-20-2011, 03:13 PM

Do women hold positions of power? Are there preachers and deacons who are women? Some religions have women leaders and women are not second class citizens. If not, women are second class citizens. Some religions even follow the biblical idea that women must obey their husbands and remain silent in church. Good luck with selling that. lol The status of women varies in different religions, but I haven't found one that give women the same status of men. Even when the official line is that women may have power, it generally doesn't happen.

I do respect men who are trying to change this. Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Conference because of the status of women. It's a start.

jillio · 11-20-2011, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

God wrote His Word in the context of omniscience and the time was eternity.

Societies change but God isn't part of a society. He's unchangeable.

Those laws, such as the dietary laws, God gave to His chosen people the Jews. They were never intended for the worldwide population. Those laws were intended to keep His chosen people separate and protected from the contamination of the world. Those laws, outside of the Ten Commandments (which are universal) were never intended for Christians. Passages in the New Testament explain that to the new Christians who were debating that themselves. There was contention about whether or not Gentile believers had to be circumcised and observe the dietary laws. It was explained and resolved. They did not have to do those things to become Christians.

As I explained above, that's not what happens.

In the New Testament, sexual purity is stressed, not deleted.

There is far more in there than dietary laws that "God" has declared "abominable".

Where did you get that? I thought the Bible was for Christians. Why would God be putting laws for Jews in the Christian Bible? Oh, so they can use the new Testament to contradict the Old Testament? Hmmm.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Do women hold positions of power? Are there preachers and deacons who are women? Some religions have women leaders and women are not second class citizens. If not, women are second class citizens.

First of all, in a properly run New Testament church, the positions of pastor and deacon aren't supposed to be positions of power but positions of service and responsibility.

Just because women aren't pastors or deacons doesn't mean they are second-class citizens. Not all men are qualified to be pastors or deacons either. Each person has a place of service to the Lord's work, according to their own gifts that He bestows. Not every Christian is called to be a preacher or deacon. There is no hierarchy of service.

Quote:

Some religions even follow the biblical idea that women must obey their husbands and remain silent in church.

What is your understanding of that? What does it mean to you? I've found that many people don't truly understand the biblical roles of husbands and wives, and men and women.

Quote:

Good luck with selling that.

What an odd way of phrasing. I've never heard of "selling" doctrines.

Quote:

The status of women varies in different religions, but I haven't found one that give women the same status of men. Even when the official line is that women may have power, it generally doesn't happen.

It depends on what you mean by "power" in a religion. In the Christian church, no one is supposed to have power over others. The pastor is a leader but he doesn't have control over people or resources.

Quote:

I do respect men who are trying to change this. Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Conference because of the status of women. It's a start.

I'm neither a Southern Baptist, nor a fan of Jimmy Carter, so I will leave that alone.

jillio · 11-20-2011, 04:07 PM

**sallylou** · 11-20-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Just because women aren't pastors or deacons doesn't mean they are second-class citizens.

Keep telling yourself that. How's recruiting young women going? lol

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is far more in there than dietary laws that "God" has declared "abominable".

I gave that as an example for a post, not a complete theological dissertation.

Quote:

Where did you get that? I thought the Bible was for Christians. Why would God be putting laws for Jews in the Christian Bible? Oh, so they can use the new Testament to contradict the Old Testament? Hmmm.

Please read again.

Yes, the whole Bible is for Christians but it's not only for Christians. Within the Bible, some passages are specially addressed to individuals and groups. Examples are God commanding Jonah to go to Ninevah, or telling Paul what to do after blinding him on the road to Damascus. God gave specific commandments to the Jews in the Old Testament because they were (and are) His chosen people. The Gentiles were not.

The New Testament does not contradict the Old Testament.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Keep telling yourself that. How's recruiting young women going? lol

Recruiting young women? Another odd phrasing. We don't "recruit" anyone.

Our church membership has plenty of young women, without recruitment.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is far more in there than dietary laws that "God" has declared "abominable".

Where did you get that? I thought the Bible was for Christians. Why would God be putting laws for Jews in the Christian Bible? Oh, so they can use the new Testament to contradict the Old Testament? Hmmm.

Now I'm wondering what's the Jewish take on the dietary law in the Torah. Do they interpret strictly or adapt it to modern society?

Many modern Christians wear clothes with mixed fibers and this is against the law as stated in in a partial quote from Leviticus 19:19:

Quote:

"neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee"

Modern versions of the Bible states that two different kinds of fiber shoudn't be mixed together.... I'm sure I could list more.

The laws regarding menstruation were rather extreme.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 05:00 PM

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is far more in there than dietary laws that "God" has declared "abominable".

Where did you get that? I thought the Bible was for Christians. Why would God be putting laws for Jews in the Christian Bible? Oh, so they can use the new Testament to contradict the Old Testament? Hmmm.

Now I'm wondering what's the Jewish take on the dietary law in the Torah. Do they interpret strictly or adapt it to modern society?

Many modern Christians wear clothes with mixed fibers and this is against the law as stated in in a partial quote from Leviticus 19:19:

Quote:

"neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee"

Modern versions of the Bible states that two different kinds of fiber shoudn't be mixed together.... I'm sure I could list more.

The laws regarding menstruation were rather extreme.

Christians aren't Jews so why would they follow the laws that were specific to the Jews?

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I gave that as an example for a post, not a complete theological dissertation.

Please read again.

Yes, the whole Bible is for Christians but it's not only for Christians. Within the Bible, some passages are specially addressed to individuals and groups. Examples are God commanding Jonah to go to Ninevah, or telling Paul what to do after blinding him on the road to Damascus. God gave specific commandments to the Jews in the Old Testament because they were (and are) His chosen people. The Gentiles were not.

The New Testament does not contradict the Old Testament.

But, you just said it was used to quality God's commandments in the Old Testament.

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Now I'm wondering what's the Jewish take on the dietary law in the Torah. Do they interpret strictly or adapt it to modern society?

Many modern Christians wear clothes with mixed fibers and this is against the law as stated in in a partial quote from Leviticus 19:19:
Modern versions of the Bible states that two different kinds of fiber shoudn't be mixed together.... I'm sure I could list more.

The laws regarding menstruation were rather extreme.

Depends on the specific sect.

Exactly. The Bible called wearing of wool and linen together an abomination.

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians aren't Jews so why would they follow the laws that were specific to the Jews?

Did a Christian tell you they were specific to the Jews?

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Depends on the specific sect.

Exactly. The Bible called wearing of wool and linen together an abomination.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians aren't Jews so why would they follow the laws that were specific to the Jews?

Some would if they take living a religious life very seriously.

Sunshine · 11-20-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

First of all, in a properly run New Testament church, the positions of pastor and deacon aren't supposed to be positions of power but positions of service and responsibility. Why a penis required service your God this way?

Just because women aren't pastors or deacons doesn't mean they are second-class citizens. Not all men are qualified to be pastors or deacons either. Each person has a place of service to the Lord's work, according to their own gifts that He bestows. Not every Christian is called to be a preacher or deacon. There is no hierarchy of service.

Difference is NOT ALL MEN qualify, but NO WOMEN qualify. Because of innately paternalistic and misogynistic hierarchy of service.

...

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 05:14 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians aren't Jews so why would they follow the laws that were specific to the Jews?

Did a Christian tell you they were specific to the Jews?

God told His chosen people, the Jews.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

...

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

God told His chosen people, the Jews.

And who told you?

Sunshine · 11-20-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

It tell me I need type something, but I have nothing more say, lol.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshine

It tell me I need type something, but I have nothing more say, lol.

That's why i had to laugh.

**Reba** · 11-20-2011, 05:20 PM

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians aren't Jews so why would they follow the laws that were specific to the Jews?

Some would if they take living a religious life very seriously.

Christians don't live a "religious" life. They live according to God's Word. God commanded the Jews to follow the fiber laws. Gentiles, unless they were living with the Jewish tribes, weren't under those laws.

Sunshine · 11-20-2011, 05:21 PM

^ how utterly arbitrary. And weird. Why would matter what fibre one wears?

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians don't live a "religious" life. They live according to God's Word. God commanded the Jews to follow the fiber laws. Gentiles, unless they were living with the Jewish tribes, weren't under those laws.

According to whom? Doesn't God's law carry over from the Old to the New Testament? I mean, I don't see any retractions in the New Testament.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Wirelessly posted (BB Curve 9300)

Christians don't live a "religious" life. They live according to God's Word. God commanded the Jews to follow the fiber laws. Gentiles, unless they were living with the Jewish tribes, weren't under those laws.

Whatever.

jillio · 11-20-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

Whatever.

"Oh, wait....I just meant that for the Jews. You, Gentiles...ignore what I have declared an abomination."

I'm wondering if anyone even knows what the word "abomination" referred to historically and culturally at that time.

**deafskeptic** · 11-20-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

"Oh, wait....I just meant that for the Jews. You, Gentiles...ignore what I have declared an abomination."

I'm wondering if anyone even knows what the word "abomination" referred to historically and culturally at that time.

My guess is that it's a lot like a taboo and considered a great and grievous offense to God or the local deity. It's like a blasphemy in God's eyes.

11-20-2011, 03:01 PM	#483 (permalink)
sallylou Potterhead and Janeite Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 6,653	If religion never changed, women would be second class citizens in religion. Wait. That's true. __________________

11-20-2011, 03:13 PM	#485 (permalink)
sallylou Potterhead and Janeite Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 6,653	Do women hold positions of power? Are there preachers and deacons who are women? Some religions have women leaders and women are not second class citizens. If not, women are second class citizens. Some religions even follow the biblical idea that women must obey their husbands and remain silent in church. Good luck with selling that. lol The status of women varies in different religions, but I haven't found one that give women the same status of men. Even when the official line is that women may have power, it generally doesn't happen. I do respect men who are trying to change this. Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Conference because of the status of women. It's a start. jillio and deafskeptic like this. __________________

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11-20-2011, 04:07 PM	#488 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296

11-20-2011, 05:21 PM	#506 (permalink)
Sunshine Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Home of Canucks! Posts: 3,269 Blog Entries: 2	^ how utterly arbitrary. And weird. Why would matter what fibre one wears?