deafdyke

But not all Klitnefliueter's are gay. Heck, I think that just having a sex chromosome abnormality doesn't automaticly mean that you'll be genderqueer or GLB. I know of at least two who are transsexual...but i mean there's not a lot of gender varient behavor with the other chromosome disorders.
Besides sex chromosome abonormalties only amount to a very small percentage of GLB people. Most GLB people are GLB randomly.

Deafness

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Ildri

So you mean it's not because I played with both barbies and trucks that I'm bisexual?

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deafskeptic

Why am I not a butch dyke because I've never owned a Barbie doll?

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Sunshine

Fuzzy, he play with dolls/tea party because he have two older sisters who think he live doll. Doubt he had any choice!

And I do accept him as is. I love my brother and his fiancé. Very much!

deafdyke

My brother got a doll when he was little b/c his two sisters got one.

deafskeptic

Speaking of dolls, I got action toy dolls like Bat-Man and Robin. I was really into superheros when I was little.

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deafdyke

I used to LOVE playing with my brother's toys. Heck, boy's toys are SO way cooler then girl's toys!

FireTiger

Of course not, and what you say is true- but if ONE person is willing to treat every GLB better because it may not be attributed to a personal choice or whatever the hang up is... then I think the information should be out there so it can be understood...

Again, I don't understand how an otherwise reasonable person could condemn a whole group if just one is 'innocent' - going on what the genes are telling the body.

If any of this gets one person to think about how they are treating others (specifically GLB) and the fact that there may be a slew of reasons for the orientation of that individual (intersex/abuse/just like same sex-find more attractive/ other sex is icky/ just don't like other sex's organ(s)... whatever) but if one of the reasons beyond the control of the individual helps -those people- to see everyone as a person... not just a sexual deviant... then this discussion helps...

Then again some people in this discussion might not treat others badly, just don't personally agree with the lifestyle.

(this post looks like it'll need a translation later- sorry)

dogmom

I get you, Firetiger


when I was little I had stuffed animals and toy cars and trucks, a collection of them. Hot Wheels cars, I named them all. And some of those cars with the keys that when you'd pull the key out, the car would shoot forward. I also had a toy garbage truck that was one of my favorites and some other "work-type" trucks and I had a lot of fun with them too. Had one doll which I spent a very small amount of time playing with; was actually outside most of the time in Summer, finding bugs and other "crawlies", climbing trees, riding bikes in the alley, messing with leaves and doing other outside games.
WIth my stuffed animals I used to "play veterinarian".
Enjoyed board games like "Sorry".

I hated dressing up, or shopping for clothes and still do-

Reba

Questions:

1. Do you think childhood behaviors ("tom boy," "sissy boy") and preferences (not sexual, but playtime activities; "girly" vs. "masculine") result in adult homosexual behavior later? Or do you think people are born as homosexual, and the girly vs. boyish traits of childhood are just manifestations of that? Or do you think that childhood activities and behaviors have zero relationship to homosexuality later?

2. Also, if homosexuality is a sexual desire for the same sex, wouldn't someone who looks more like the same sex be more appealing than someone who mimics the appear of the opposite sex? That is, for a lesbian, wouldn't she be more drawn to a very feminine looking woman? Why would a woman who looks very manish be appealing? If a manish look is a turn on, why not be interested in a man? It seems counter intuitive. For example, if a homosexual man is interested in other men, why would another man who looks and acts womanly be appealing?

I'm seriously asking.

dogmom

those are interesting questions. here's my thoughts....

I think sexual orientation is inherent and that in this society in U.S., outward characteristics like playing with certain things or enjoying certain activities, do not manifest into an orientation - it was ALREADY there. A boy playing with dolls does not make him gay, that's an old fear. There are certain traits and characteristics that are still encouraged from the moment of birth, starting with blue and pink-coded diapers, crib themes, blue/pink-colored names on cribs, walls etc....these associations lead into perceptions and patterns which can alter behaviors of adult caregivers - un-knowingly being more "gentle" when handling infants perceived as female vs. infants perceived as male. Then when we get into childhood games, children are still encouraged here to play with and be certain things.

and, just as with straight people, people who are GBLTQ have a variety of things they might like about another person - some bi/Queer/lesbian women like butch girls; some don't. Some - doesn't matter, don't think that way. There's as much variation and types/levels of attraction as with straight people.

It's really not so mysterious, I don't think-

Daredevel7

Very good questions.

1) I believe that what you play with as a kid doesn't really have to do with if you are straight or gay. When someone is straight, they don't pay attention what they played with as a kid. When someone is gay, people automatically think back to what they played with as a kid. "OMG, he DID play with a doll once!"

My cousin used to play with my Barbies when he came over, but it was more because my Barbie had a Ferrari, and he'd make up stories about the Barbie with the Ferrari. He is straight. I liked Hot Wheels better than Barbies. The Barbies I had were always given as a gift. I'm bi, therefore that must mean me playing with Hot Wheels must do something with it, right? Doubtful.

I also believe that IS possible that being gay or straight means you are more fem (gay) or butch (lesbian), which is then manifested in the toys you pick, but I'm sticking with my theory until I see statistics.

2) Incredibly good question. It also confounds me. However, keep in mind that the gays/lesbians you see are the ones that are easy to figure out (very butch/fem). Ever since I started hanging out with more lesbians, I've noticed that there is actually a surprising amount of feminine lesbians. While most are out, they are not flamboyant about it, so most people they meet would never know that they are lesbians. I personally cannot see myself attracted to a woman who is very butch, although my girlfriend can look slightly butch. I honestly do wish that she can be a bit more femme sometimes, but I love her very much and it's just not a big deal. However, just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I should judge. (Not that you are, but just sayin'.)

Reba

I understand variances in individual attractions. However, there does seem to be a culture of "styles" that are maybe just stereotypes about homosexuals. You know, the butch woman with a severe haircut and plaid flannel shirt who hates to wear makeup, and the fem man who minces and lisps and loves Broadway musicals.

Also, the image that is conveyed at "Gay Pride" parades--are those stereotypes or are those real life manifestations of homosexual traits?

Is it possible for people who have strong homosexual sexual feelings to not be interested in the gay lifestyle? Or is it a package deal?

FireTiger

1) I was/am a tom boy, all the neighborhood kids that were worth a darn were boys... I played with them whatever they were playing, had a huge collection of Micro Machines and Hot Wheels...

Usually I stripped my dolls and used them in the tub...

I played Sports: football, soccer, karate, track
games: army, cars, racing, catch.

I only keep my hair short, and growing up in gender neutral clothes got called a boy... often.

I am personally straight... but don't care if someone else isn't.

Conciser this, a 'tom boy' is considered strong an adventurous, a 'sissy boy/sally girl' is always considered deviant and inappropriate after age... I guess 5 years... Double Standard much!?!

2) I think DD7 had a great point, Thank G-d there is no tattoo on the face or Letter sewn onto clothes-

People's bedroom behavior is between themselves and their partner.

Of course I'm ant-PDA if the behavior is PG-13 or 'worse' (holding hands, hugging, kiss on the cheek- OK, making out, grouping, etc not Ok)

Consider pheromones- there are studies about 'races' and pheromones... I wonder if there are G/L/B studies on pheromones.

[IIRC shirts that had men sweat into them w/o deodorant and X-hours after a shower were smelled by women and ranked on 'attractiveness' the men were each very clear representations of a particular 'race' of humans.]

Also conciser if you are Lesbian and your partner is very butch, no none may give you as much trouble... (may not be right)

Reba

I think the children's play is influenced by culture to a large part.

I played with dressed up Barbies who dated macho GI Joe. They each had adventures, and various vehicles.

I loved playing with my baby dolls and stuffed animals. I played house and school with them. I also loved playing pirates, explorers, and cowboys. I had toy six-shooters, rifle, swords, and my pride and joy--a secret cap-shooting pistol that looked like a belt buckle. (I would pooch my tummy out, and the gun would pop out and shoot!)

My brother and I were each Zorro for Halloween one year.

My first two-wheel bike was a boy's bike. (My parents bought me a lot boy or neutral toys and clothes so that I could hand them down to my younger brother.)

I loved building things with my plastic brick set (pre-Lego blocks). I also loved all the girly games and toys.

I think in my family I was never told certain toys were for girls or boys only. My brother and I shared a lot of our stuff, although he was never interested in my dolls.

So, it is my OPINION that choice of toys and play activities by children has no bearing on whether or not they have homosexual tendencies.

I think it could reflect family, media, and cultural attitudes.

Opinion.

Daredevel7

Sigh.. yea..... In fact, when I told my mom about me, first thing she asked was "Are you going to cut your hair short?" *rolls eyes* Sometimes I wonder if its a social construct thing. Like for straight people, girls are supposed to like pink, dolls, etc while boys like blue, action figures, etc. Back then, I think gay people didn't know how to be gay since it was all taboo. They thought to themselves "I really like women, but.. I'm a woman? Maybe I should dress like a guy because I FEEL like a guy for liking women." And vice versa. If you look at pictures of gay women back in the old days, they were extremely butch, more so than now.

Stereotypes. Think of it this way. If they were dressed like normal, would the parade be as exciting? I enjoy them, but sometimes I think they are giving off the wrong image of gay people being hyper-sexual creatures.

Isn't the act of strong homosexual feelings an automatic interest in the gay lifestyle? When you say gay lifestyle, I am assuming you are talking about having a homosexual relationship. It's kind of like asking "Can people who have strong sexual feelings not have an interest in dating/sex?" I think you may be asking if a person with strong homosexual feelings can AVOID the gay lifestyle. In this case, then yes of course.

If priests can practice celibacy....

However, if you are mean gay lifestyle in a different way such as acting femme/butch.... then of course!! There's quite a few gay men who you'd NEVER suspect of being gay.

Reba

What do you consider to be "the old days?"

Daredevel7

Let's assume that homosexuality is something one can be born with. So let's say you ended up being gay, don't you think your family would automatically say stuff like "Sigh, she used to play with guns and dress up like guys.. I knew I should have put her in ballet classes."

By the way, my mom did say that "I knew I should have put you in ballet classes...."

Daredevel7

30s-40s

Banjo

I can think of a few examples that would be considered highly racist. For instance, old cartoons often portrayed Africans with big lips and bones in their hair and through their noses. They would make strange noises.

They did it with the Aboriginals too as well.

Daredevel7

Never mind. I misread something.

dogmom

wait what is the gay lifestyle? just using that again implies that it's a choice
how come we don't ask about the heterosexual lifestyle?

yes, the images at the Parades are stereotypes, doesn't mean all folks who are GBLTQ present that way. If the folks want to, fine; if not, fine.

people can be gay and not be in a relationship - again, it's something someone IS, not something someone DOES


and yup, I do agree with Reba's post about kids' play being culturally influenced-

dogmom

all the gay/bi/trans men I've met have ranged in appearance and I can think of only one person I met who matched the exaggerated appearance often seen at the Parades.

deafskeptic

Speaking of ballet classes, I took ballet classes when I was little. My little sister was already taking ballet classes so i decided to join too.

My mother pulled us from the classes because we fought too much according to her though I don't recall doing anything more than elbowing my little sister. I was disappointed when my mother withdrew us.

When I wasn't in ballet class, I was not comfortable with anything overly female in either toys or clothes. I still avoid lace for the most part.

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Reba

Why do you think that is?

FireTiger

Lace itches horribly unless its that really nice stuff

It tends to frey and look ugly if a person is not super careful with it.

It stains easily

It gives stupid patters for sunburns (not that I allow myself to burn anymore)

Did I mention how itchy it is?

It make me look like Wednesday Adams - I'm too pale for white lace...

dogmom

I like jeans

give me a good old pair of jeans and sweatshirt or t-shirt

I have nothing remotely "dressy" in my closet.

but- I've met lesbians, bi and trans women who were more into, or really into, more stereotypical "feminine" clothing and stuff.

deafskeptic

Lace itches and as a rule, I don't like anything overly feminine.

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jillio

I'm seriously answering.

Frisky Feline

when i was a kid. I hated dress, hated girly toys, hated pink or purple, hated anything that is for girly toys or stuffs or nail polish or make up anything. i never forget when i got a barbie doll from school that santa gave out. I fought with teacher that i wanted a car, not doll. The nun insisted that im a girl therefore i must get a doll. I threw a doll in the air and refused to play wiht it. When i came home and found a doll in my backpack. I cried out and my mom knew me and said, " it is just a doll". I decided to remove clothes and cut all the hair and threw it in the backyard. every year, santa ( i know its from parents) always gave the presents the same as me and my brother. I got the hot rod cars etc. I think I finally dressed up girly clothes when i was 13 but not everyday. Like once a week eventually i wear girly now. BUT i stillllllll wear blue jean, sneakers, and t shirt if no special occassion.