What Is the Big Deal With Gay Marriage? - Page 9

FireTiger · 10-25-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Cigarrettes being legal did not impinge on any of your rights.

Actually, it does- it infringes my right to breathe, it triggers my Asthma and usually causes an associated panic attack... having to never go where smokers are does limit my freedoms...

but that's not really the topic, just smoking a poor example.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

"Properly"? Well I guess you should thank her for allowing you to put words in her mouth. I certainly wont allow you, nor anyone else, to do that to me.

You still don't get it. You are not reading with comprehension. I didn't put words in her mouth. I simply understood what she was saying. Obviously, you didn't.

It's okay, rolling. Everyone makes mistakes, you included.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireTiger

Actually, it does- it infringes my right to breathe, it triggers my Asthma and usually causes an associated panic attack... having to never go where smokers are does limit my freedoms...

but that's not really the topic, just smoking a poor example.

And I could argue:
You have every right not to choose to be around anyone who is smoking. Your right is preserved. You are responsible for monitoring your surroundings in relation to managing your illness. The rest of society does not bear that responsibility.

But you are right. Smoking is a strawman thrown out in an attempt to distract from the actual debate.

dogmom · 10-25-2011, 12:13 PM

Jillio - YES

rolling - already had my words
and religion was ALREADY part of the equation. it's the sad reality of the answer to the question when the question is:

<quote> ....What Is the Big Deal With Gay Marriage?

Why are some people against this? For example, lets say 2 gay people youve never met and most likely never will meet, decide to get married. What business is it of yours? Why would you even care? <endquote>

that being the original question, the answer is as evidenced by this thread...but notice that I did NOT write "....my religion" or "some religions" BUT

" ....in the West or U.S., people have generally been socialized to believe a myth of a certain behavior pattern, and especially in religious terms. People may not have thought of any other way or seen something besides what they're used to. So they have all biases and misperceptions.

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I can name one way gay marriage effects others.

Why are we even discussing it? Why are children being pulled into the discussion?

Do parents have the "right" to train their children in spirituality and morals, or should we leave that up to the government?

I can tell you this right now - any actions that "dictate" what children should be taught about homosexuality will most certainly be considered an act of war.

When do we attack California?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-14/u...books?_s=PM:US

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

When do we attack California?

California governor signs bill requiring schools to teach gay history - CNN

So, they will be teaching gay history. Whether you want to recognize it or not, gay individuals have made huge contributions to our history. Teaching the history does not make a statement regarding the moral right or wrong of homosexuality. That is still up to the parent to teach. There you go. Your rights have not been taken away, unless you want to retain the right to have your child selectively educated and given a distorted perspective of history. In that case, you still have the right to homeschool.

BTW...my "you" is a generic and collective one.

dogmom · 10-25-2011, 12:33 PM

"gay history" is people's history, fully recognized
anyone who fails to see that perhaps would like to live in that old "Leave it to Beaver show"

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

So, they will be teaching gay history. Whether you want to recognize it or not, gay individuals have made huge contributions to our history. Teaching the history does not make a statement regarding the moral right or wrong of homosexuality. That is still up to the parent to teach. There you go. Your rights have not been taken away, unless you want to retain the right to have your child selectively educated and given a distorted perspective of history. In that case, you still have the right to homeschool.

BTW...my "you" is a generic and collective one.

I guess we will see how it plays out.

I do know from being there this created a rush toward private schools. I think this will likely continue, especially in an improved economy. Time will tell.

**KarissaMann05** · 10-25-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

That's not an example of kids being taken away from same-sex couples.

I asked for an example of kids being taken away from the custody of same-sex couples simply because the parents are gay.

So far, no examples of that happening.

If it happens, how come there are no articles about it?

Fine, go ahead and don't believe in those stories or articles by then. I already searched for a few days and asked homosexual friends of mine for informative articles and stuff. I even asked for their personal stories but they vetoed my request.

There is nothing I can do. But, are you sure? Have you read the article I provided? It's because the father is homosexual that his kids were taken away...

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogmom

"gay history" is people's history, fully recognized
anyone who fails to see that perhaps would like to live in that old "Leave it to Beaver show"

MANY disagree. *shrug*

Ildri · 10-25-2011, 12:47 PM

And I hardly think they're going to take away Black History Month just because some people are racist. I was discussing the issue of gay marriage with a friend the other day. She commented that she knew a lot of people weren't ready for its legalization. I asked why we should cater to bigotry.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I guess we will see how it plays out.

I do know from being there this created a rush toward private schools. I think this will likely continue, especially in an improved economy. Time will tell.

Cool. People will be exercising their right to choose. No one has had their rights taken away.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

MANY disagree. *shrug*

MANY agree. *shrug*

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Fine, go ahead and don't believe in those stories or articles by then. I already searched for a few days and asked homosexual friends of mine. I even asked for their personal stories but they vetoed my request.

There is nothing I can do. But, are you sure? Have you read the article I provided? It's because the father is homosexual that his kids were taken away...

Of course it happens. And the reason that you don't see it in the news is because it is a family court matter generally. Decisions of the family courts are not published in news accounts, particularly those regarding custody.

**KarissaMann05** · 10-25-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Of course it happens. And the reason that you don't see it in the news is because it is a family court matter generally. Decisions of the family courts are not published in news accounts, particularly those regarding custody.

Ah, I see... Hmm...

jillio · 10-25-2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ildri

And I hardly think they're going to take away Black History Month just because some people are racist. I was discussing the issue of gay marriage with a friend the other day. She commented that she knew a lot of people weren't ready for its legalization. I asked why we should cater to bigotry.

Some people are still upset that Martin Luther King has a national holiday.

Can you imagine the uproar from the fringe if we declared a "Harvey Milk Day"? LOL

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

MANY agree. *shrug*

Let's have a war and settle it then!

jillio · 10-25-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Let's have a war and settle it then!

It may come to that. Remember the civil rights war?

rolling7 · 10-25-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It doesn't require a crystal ball. It simply requires reading with comprehension.

Leave the strawmen out of your argument. We are discussing the ways in which legal marriage of same sex couples will remove any of your rights. Legalization of alcohol did not remove any of your rights. Cigarrettes being legal did not impinge on any of your rights. Legal marriage between two adults of the same sex will not remove any of your rights. If you cannot cite a single way in which legal marriage between same sex couples will have a negative impact on you personally, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that your objection is based on a self centered need to demand rights for yourself that you judge others as being unworthy of. It is a matter of your moral imperialism, and that, my dear rolling, is completely unnacceptable as a justification for bigotry.

Thank you for confirming my point.

Certain citys/areas are known to be "dry".....no booze allowed. Are you ok with certain citys/areas having a law of "no gay marriage"?
Certain citys have a law against smoking in a public place. Why? Because second hand smoke can kill innocence people.
All states have a D.W.I. law. Why? Booze kills innocence people.
Did the crystal ball back then foresee this problem? That is how stupid people are. Passing a law to cover the wrong of a law, whereas the first law was passed to apples a small section of the population under the heading of "civil rights."
Where is any concern for those who have or will die because of a few. You think this does not affect as all? Those laws, allowing cigs. and booze, don't dictate all our lives? Yes, they do. Ask your Congressperson just how much the innocence people in America are taxed to pay for health care for these individuals and their victims.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

...My conscious tells me that I am not so self centered in my focus as to believe that my way is the one and only true right way; especially when applied to people who have a very different existence than my own. My conscious tells me that it is a very dangerous thing to attempt to impose my particular belief system on others through force...which is exactly what attempting to enact law based on personal religious persuasion is. My conscious tells me actions such as that have had very, very harmful consequences throughout history and my conscious above all, tells me never to seek to do harm to others. Maybe your conscious tells you something different.

So you do vote your conscience (not conscious) in order to promote what you believe to be right. So do I. Your vote also does attempt to impose your particular belief system on others by weight of law. That's what voting on laws is all about. We each vote for the side that supports our beliefs.

My conscience also tells me not to support legislation that will harm others, so that's why I vote against same-sex marriage.

Quote:

When you are attempting to determine the legality of something based on your own religious belief then you are indeed, attempting to dictate the behaviors of others based on your particular religious doctrine.

I never said that I use my religious beliefs to determine the legality of something. That's up to the courts to do. I use my religious beliefs to determine how I will vote.

Quote:

I think Warren Jeffs is currently doing prison time for attempting same in a different situation.

Wow, I guess Hitler's been overused, so now you compare Christians to Jeffs.

Jeffs is in prison for breaking laws. He's not in prison for voting on laws.

Quote:

Jesus accepted a great deal more than some people who identify as Christian give him credit for. He cautioned against judging others.

Jesus never accepted any sins. When he forgave the sinners, then he told them to go and sin no more. He didn't say that Christians shouldn't use judgment (discernment) of right and wrong. He warned Christians to apply judgment to their own lives first, and then judge the behaviors (not hearts or spiritual conditions) of others.

Quote:

And when you attempt to make illegal a behavior that you simply don't like because it goes against your orientation, then you are, in fact, pronouncing judgment.

The behavior wasn't legal to begin with.

Did you think that same-sex marriage has been legal throughout the USA since the country was founded, and we're just now voting to make it illegal? Where did you find that one?

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. everyone is entitled to their opinion. They are just not entitled to use it to determine whether certain groups are openly discriminated against. Especially when that group has no impact whatsoever on the opinion holders life.

Who are you to declare what actions impact other people? That's rather presumptuous.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Why can't people be named?

If they don't mind other people using their names in a public forum, that's up to them.

Quote:

Those homosexuals that are directly impacted by these attitudes are people; they are human beings who suffer the consequences. Perhaps if you put a face on that objection, it would be less easy for you to be so quick to judge.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about with your holier-than-thou pronouncements.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Take James Camping as an example. He is certain the world is going to end sometime in the next few months. He just keeps getting his calculations wrong.

Most Christians have been saying that ever since Camping came on the scene with his first "prophecy." We've never put a date to the end of the world, and we've constantly spoken out against those who do.

dogmom · 10-25-2011, 01:25 PM

but the country was already found...

another issue people dislike seeing the reality of

how does same-sex or same-gender marriage legitimately and SECULAR-ly harm others?

**deafskeptic** · 10-25-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Some people are still upset that Martin Luther King has a national holiday.

Can you imagine the uproar from the fringe if we declared a "Harvey Milk Day"? LOL

I can just imagine. I remember my parents reactions when MLK day when it was first reenacted. They were against it on the grounds that it was an excuse to be lazy instead of working hard.

In part of the South, Confederate Heroes' day is sometimes the same day as MLK day.

I don't even want to think of the uproar regarding Harvey Milk if we declared a day in his name.

dogmom · 10-25-2011, 01:29 PM

I never knew of Confederate Heroes Day-

***naisho*** · 10-25-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogmom

but the country was already found...

another issue people dislike seeing the reality of

how does same-sex or same-gender marriage legitimately and SECULAR-ly harm others?

Some Christians may see it as sin spreading around them and don't like it. Some people do something about that or some choose to adapt to it. Some intend to challenge things or fix humanity for the greater good (Christ).

It's like saying that you're living in a regular neighborhood, and then someone who doesn't share the same ideas as you moves in the neighborhood. It may be that you might not be concerned, but for example if you can picture someone could be an ex-convict who believes in killing people in wars for a reason or believe in pro-birth or pro-abortion, or pro PETA or someone who was into animal beastality moving in the neighborhood.

I'm not saying these are the same as gays or homosexuals, just saying they just share an idea that you might not find welcoming. What would ya do about it?

It's a tough question, and I don't think everyone would answer it in the same way...

Just giving you insight to why some Christians may feel differently than others who don't see why.

Sunshine · 10-25-2011, 01:33 PM

Reba, you say your conscience make you vote against legislation which harm others. This include gay people? Or only straight people / people you deem worthy not be harmed?

jillio · 10-25-2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolling7

Certain citys/areas are known to be "dry".....no booze allowed. Are you ok with certain citys/areas having a law of "no gay marriage"?
Certain citys have a law against smoking in a public place. Why? Because second hand smoke can kill innocence people.
All states have a D.W.I. law. Why? Booze kills innocence people.
Did the crystal ball back then foresee this problem? That is how stupid people are. Passing a law to cover the wrong of a law, whereas the first law was passed to apples a small section of the population under the heading of "civil rights."
Where is any concern for those who have or will die because of a few. You think this does not affect as all? Those laws, allowing cigs. and booze, don't dictate all our lives? Yes, they do. Ask your Congressperson just how much the innocence people in America are taxed to pay for health care for these individuals and their victims.

Again with the stawman arguments. Just because a city is dry doesn't mean you can't go somewhere else, buy your booze, and bring it back to drink it there.

Seriously, you need to try to stick to the topic. You have used everything EXCEPT a legal objection to gay marriage or a way in which it will negatively impact you or your life in an attempt to support your bigotry. That is very typical of those who don't have a argument that is logical and understandable, but simply built on an emotional reaction.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

If they don't mind other people using their names in a public forum, that's up to them.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about with your holier-than-thou pronouncements.

Why should anyone be afraid to be known as a homosexual? Oh, wait...some of the opinions on this forum explain that.

10-25-2011, 12:13 PM	#244 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,469	Jillio - YES rolling - already had my words and religion was ALREADY part of the equation. it's the sad reality of the answer to the question when the question is: <quote> ....What Is the Big Deal With Gay Marriage? Why are some people against this? For example, lets say 2 gay people youve never met and most likely never will meet, decide to get married. What business is it of yours? Why would you even care? <endquote> that being the original question, the answer is as evidenced by this thread...but notice that I did NOT write "....my religion" or "some religions" BUT " ....in the West or U.S., people have generally been socialized to believe a myth of a certain behavior pattern, and especially in religious terms. People may not have thought of any other way or seen something besides what they're used to. So they have all biases and misperceptions. jillio likes this.

10-25-2011, 12:33 PM	#247 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,469	"gay history" is people's history, fully recognized anyone who fails to see that perhaps would like to live in that old "Leave it to Beaver show" jillio and Ildri like this.

10-25-2011, 12:47 PM	#251 (permalink)
Ildri Registered User Join Date: May 2011 Location: Ohio, for now Posts: 175	And I hardly think they're going to take away Black History Month just because some people are racist. I was discussing the issue of gay marriage with a friend the other day. She commented that she knew a lot of people weren't ready for its legalization. I asked why we should cater to bigotry. __________________ "Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken" -Oscar Wilde

10-25-2011, 01:25 PM	#264 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,469	but the country was already found... another issue people dislike seeing the reality of how does same-sex or same-gender marriage legitimately and SECULAR-ly harm others? jillio and Ildri like this.

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10-25-2011, 01:29 PM	#266 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 5,469	I never knew of Confederate Heroes Day-

10-25-2011, 01:33 PM	#268 (permalink)
Sunshine Banned Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Home of Canucks! Posts: 3,269 Blog Entries: 2	Reba, you say your conscience make you vote against legislation which harm others. This include gay people? Or only straight people / people you deem worthy not be harmed?