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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:36 PM   #271 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jiro View Post
old men will die of heart attack.
No all old men die while having sex. My dad lived to be 75 years and had sex until the end of his life. He had a mistress that was at 40 younger than him.
I hated dad for cheating on my mother!
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:36 PM   #272 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by naisho View Post
Some Christians may see it as sin spreading around them and don't like it. Some people do something about that or some choose to adapt to it. Some intend to challenge things or fix humanity for the greater good (Christ).

It's like saying that you're living in a regular neighborhood, and then someone who doesn't share the same ideas as you moves in the neighborhood. It may be that you might not be concerned, but for example if you can picture someone could be an ex-convict who believes in killing people in wars for a reason or believe in pro-birth or pro-abortion, or pro PETA or someone who was into animal beastality moving in the neighborhood.

I'm not saying these are the same as gays or homosexuals, just saying they just share an idea that you might not find welcoming. What would ya do about it?

It's a tough question, and I don't think everyone would answer it in the same way...
Just giving you insight to why some Christians may feel differently than others who don't see why.
They are free not to like it. If you don't like it, don't participate in it.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:37 PM   #273 (permalink)
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So you do vote your conscience (not conscious) in order to promote what you believe to be right. So do I. Your vote also does attempt to impose your particular belief system on others by weight of law. That's what voting on laws is all about. We each vote for the side that supports our beliefs.

My conscience also tells me not to support legislation that will harm others, so that's why I vote against same-sex marriage.

[quote}When you are attempting to determine the legality of something based on your own religious belief then you are indeed, attempting to dictate the behaviors of others based on your particular religious doctrine.
I never said that I use my religious beliefs to determine the legality of something. That's up to the courts to do. I use my religious beliefs to determine how I will vote.


Wow, I guess Hitler's been overused, so now you compare Christians to Jeffs.

Jeffs is in prison for breaking laws. He's not in prison for voting on laws.


Jesus never accepted any sins. When he forgave the sinners, then he told them to go and sin no more. He didn't say that Christians shouldn't use judgment (discernment) of right and wrong. He warned Christians to apply judgment to their own lives first, and then judge the behaviors (not hearts or spiritual conditions) of others.


The behavior wasn't legal to begin with.

Did you think that same-sex marriage has been legal throughout the USA since the country was founded, and we're just now voting to make it illegal? Where did you find that one?[/QUOTE]

My conscious determines my conscience.

Not everyone follows Jesus. And you certainly won't bring them to Jesus by using His name to marginalize and discriminate against them.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:40 PM   #274 (permalink)
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I never said that I use my religious beliefs to determine the legality of something. That's up to the courts to do. I use my religious beliefs to determine how I will vote.


Wow, I guess Hitler's been overused, so now you compare Christians to Jeffs.

Jeffs is in prison for breaking laws. He's not in prison for voting on laws.


Jesus never accepted any sins. When he forgave the sinners, then he told them to go and sin no more. He didn't say that Christians shouldn't use judgment (discernment) of right and wrong. He warned Christians to apply judgment to their own lives first, and then judge the behaviors (not hearts or spiritual conditions) of others.


The behavior wasn't legal to begin with.

Did you think that same-sex marriage has been legal throughout the USA since the country was founded, and we're just now voting to make it illegal? Where did you find that one?

My conscious determines my conscience.

Not everyone follows Jesus. And you certainly won't bring them to Jesus by using His name to marginalize and discriminate against them.
I especially like this line.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:43 PM   #275 (permalink)
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Fine, go ahead and don't believe in those stories or articles by then.
I didn't say that I didn't believe them--you haven't posted any yet. When you post them, I can read them.

Quote:
I already searched for a few days and asked homosexual friends of mine. I even asked for their personal stories but they vetoed my request.
I wasn't expecting the private stories of friends but I thought you might be able to find public news stories about such events.

Quote:
There is nothing I can do. But, are you sure? Have you read the article I provided? It's because the father is homosexual that his kids were taken away...
Yes, I read the links. Which one was that?

This is what you linked:

"Profile
Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Ed Brayton is a participant in the Center for Independent Media New Journalism Program. However, all of the statements, opinions, policies, and views expressed on this site are solely Ed Brayton's. This web site is not a production of the Center, and the Center does not support or endorse any of the contents on this site.

Liberty Counsel: Take Kids Away From Gay Parents

Posted on: June 23, 2009 9:30 AM, by Ed Brayton

In response to a Georgia case where the state Supreme Court recently ruled that a trial judge could not order a father to keep his children away from his gay friends when visiting, Liberty Counsel goes even further and argues that children should not even be allowed to visit a parent if that parent is gay. Their statement of the facts:

Eric Duane Mongerson and Sandy Kay Ehlers Mongerson were married for 21 years and had four children. The Georgia Supreme Court has ruled in their divorce case that the children cannot be prohibited from visitation with their now-homosexual father.

The ruling would also put the children in contact with their father's homosexual friends. Matt Barber of Liberty Counsel tells OneNewsNow the courts historically have looked to the best interests of children.

And Liberty Counsel's vile reaction:

"In this case the court, in order to somehow perpetuate and further the interest of political correctness, has taken what's in the best interest of the child and turned it on its head," he contends. Barber says there appears to be no consideration for the fact that children are very impressionable and could be harmed from exposure to a homosexual environment. "Obviously it is not in the best interest of a child to be taken by his father and introduced to a group of people who are engaging in abhorrent sexual behaviors, who are modeling abhorrent sexual behaviors and celebration of that [which is] demonstrably dangerous from a medical, spiritual, and emotional standpoint -- modeling those behaviors for the child," Barber adds.

A very clear argument for taking children away from a gay parent. Because that's just what Jesus would do. Bigoted assholes."


According to your link, the court supports the gay father for visitation.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:47 PM   #276 (permalink)
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I didn't say that I didn't believe them--you haven't posted any yet. When you post them, I can read them.


I wasn't expecting the private stories of friends but I thought you might be able to find public news stories about such events.


Yes, I read the links. Which one was that?

This is what you linked:

"Profile
Ed Brayton is a journalist, commentator and speaker. He is the co-founder and president of Michigan Citizens for Science and co-founder of The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Skeptic and Reports of the National Center for Science Education, spoken in front of many organizations and conferences, and appeared on nationally syndicated radio shows and on C-SPAN. Ed is also a Fellow with the Center for Independent Media and the host of Declaring Independence, a one hour weekly political talk show on WPRR in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Ed Brayton is a participant in the Center for Independent Media New Journalism Program. However, all of the statements, opinions, policies, and views expressed on this site are solely Ed Brayton's. This web site is not a production of the Center, and the Center does not support or endorse any of the contents on this site.

Liberty Counsel: Take Kids Away From Gay Parents

Posted on: June 23, 2009 9:30 AM, by Ed Brayton

In response to a Georgia case where the state Supreme Court recently ruled that a trial judge could not order a father to keep his children away from his gay friends when visiting, Liberty Counsel goes even further and argues that children should not even be allowed to visit a parent if that parent is gay. Their statement of the facts:

Eric Duane Mongerson and Sandy Kay Ehlers Mongerson were married for 21 years and had four children. The Georgia Supreme Court has ruled in their divorce case that the children cannot be prohibited from visitation with their now-homosexual father.

The ruling would also put the children in contact with their father's homosexual friends. Matt Barber of Liberty Counsel tells OneNewsNow the courts historically have looked to the best interests of children.

And Liberty Counsel's vile reaction:

"In this case the court, in order to somehow perpetuate and further the interest of political correctness, has taken what's in the best interest of the child and turned it on its head," he contends. Barber says there appears to be no consideration for the fact that children are very impressionable and could be harmed from exposure to a homosexual environment. "Obviously it is not in the best interest of a child to be taken by his father and introduced to a group of people who are engaging in abhorrent sexual behaviors, who are modeling abhorrent sexual behaviors and celebration of that [which is] demonstrably dangerous from a medical, spiritual, and emotional standpoint -- modeling those behaviors for the child," Barber adds.

A very clear argument for taking children away from a gay parent. Because that's just what Jesus would do. Bigoted assholes."


According to your link, the court supports the gay father for visitation.
It had to go all the way to the State Supreme Court. What does that tell you?
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:48 PM   #277 (permalink)
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They are free not to like it. If you don't like it, don't participate in it.
Of course, for sure.
It is a little easier said than done sometimes, try convincing a local congregation pastor to not participate in those topics, leave it alone or stay out of the issue. It's akin to arguing with kokonut to stop posting about Obama.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:51 PM   #278 (permalink)
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Reba, you say your conscience make you vote against legislation which harm others. This include gay people? Or only straight people / people you deem worthy not be harmed?
Reba? Conscience duty not harm include gay people?

I bet gay people tell you not allow marry harm them, just as straight people would say same if their right marry taken away. So how you can, good conscience, vote harm gay people via trampling their civil liberties?
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:52 PM   #279 (permalink)
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Also harm gay people when sanctimonious Christians treat as less human.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:54 PM   #280 (permalink)
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Of course, for sure.
It is a little easier said than done sometimes, try convincing a local congregation pastor to not participate in those topics, leave it alone or stay out of the issue. It's akin to arguing with kokonut to stop posting about Obama.
I guess zealots are zealots no matter what brush you use to paint them.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:57 PM   #281 (permalink)
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God commanded that marriage is for one man and one woman. That's His perfect plan, as stated in the book of Genesis, and reiterated throughout Scripture.

The Bible also condemns homosexual behavior as sin. Allowing legal sanction and social acceptance to sin encourages more of the behavior.
Look at Boston churches sex scandal, I really do not think the churches should be saying anything against gay marriages when the churches been sexually abusing boys and girls for years! And this is still going on. That was not apart of God 'perfect plan,. If God was to had 'made' he should had made them so they would follow his 'perfect plan, he didn't he gave man a choose to do as he please. And to tell man he has to follow his perfect plan or else to me is a setup!
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:58 PM   #282 (permalink)
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Reba, you say your conscience make you vote against legislation which harm others. This include gay people? Or only straight people / people you deem worthy not be harmed?
All people.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 01:59 PM   #283 (permalink)
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Of course, for sure.
It is a little easier said than done sometimes, try convincing a local congregation pastor to not participate in those topics, leave it alone or stay out of the issue. It's akin to arguing with kokonut to stop posting about Obama.
I think you have a point there.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:00 PM   #284 (permalink)
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All people.
But somehow...treat gay people as less human, not allow them marry...nt harm them? I not understand.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:01 PM   #285 (permalink)
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All people.
And yet you would vote to discriminate against a population's rights just because of a religious belief? That is creating harm. Real, quantifiable, measurable harm.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:03 PM   #286 (permalink)
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and yet you would vote to discriminate against a population's rights just because of a religious belief? That is creating harm. Real, quantifiable, measurable harm.
amen.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:04 PM   #287 (permalink)
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Just an FYI to anyone that happens to live in this part of the US... there's going to be a massive protest FOR the legalization of gay marriage on Sat, Nov. 5th in Cincinnati, OH. Here are the details:

Log In | Facebook

I'll be there!
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:06 PM   #288 (permalink)
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Why should anyone be afraid to be known as a homosexual? Oh, wait...some of the opinions on this forum explain that.
I never said they should be afraid to be identified. You made an erroneous assumption. I just thought it was a general policy for posters to not use the names of family and friends in a public forum, regardless of the topic.

I never use the names of any family or friends in any of my posts at AD. I respect their privacy.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:06 PM   #289 (permalink)
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It may come to that. Remember the civil rights war?
I was joking of course but I think it will come to war actually. I think we are within 10 years of another civil war. Again time will tell
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:06 PM   #290 (permalink)
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Just an FYI to anyone that happens to live in this part of the US... there's going to be a massive protest FOR the legalization of gay marriage on Sat, Nov. 5th in Cincinnati, OH. Here are the details:

Log In | Facebook

I'll be there!
Yep! And I will be in Cincinnati that week-end for a seminar, but will be showing up at the rally as well.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:07 PM   #291 (permalink)
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I never said they should be afraid to be identified. You made an erroneous assumption. I just thought it was a general policy for posters to not use the names of family and friends in a public forum, regardless of the topic.

I never use the names of any family or friends in any of my posts at AD. I respect their privacy.
Apologies. I not know this rule.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:08 PM   #292 (permalink)
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Yep! And I will be in Cincinnati that week-end for a seminar, but will be showing up at the rally as well.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:11 PM   #293 (permalink)
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I was joking of course but I think it will come to war actually. I think we are within 10 years of another civil war. Again time will tell
The way I see it, we permitted discrimination and horrendous hate crimes against people of color as long as those who were not directly affected failed to take a stand and speak out against the injustice. When people of all races had their sensibilities offended long enough, they came together and change happened. It will be the same way with this issue. Straight people are beginning to join with the GLTB population and take a stand against discrimination and hate. The tide will again turn. It is just a shame that so many will remain passive until push comes to shove.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:12 PM   #294 (permalink)
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My conscious determines my conscience.

Not everyone follows Jesus. And you certainly won't bring them to Jesus by using His name to marginalize and discriminate against them.
I never said or even implied that everyone follows Jesus.

I won't lie about what Jesus said, or let others lie about what he said.

Jesus didn't marginalize or discriminate against anyone.

You can slander me if you want but that takes the cake when you misrepresent Jesus.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:13 PM   #295 (permalink)
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I never said they should be afraid to be identified. You made an erroneous assumption. I just thought it was a general policy for posters to not use the names of family and friends in a public forum, regardless of the topic.

I never use the names of any family or friends in any of my posts at AD. I respect their privacy.
I agree. Even if topics escalate into friendly chat, heated debates, clash of the titans and opinions, I would never resort to revealing their real names without their consent. I feel it's a shared general courtesy to be modest with your fellows around you, regardless of skin color, ethnicity, gender, religion, alignment, etc. Even though I know of LDS and JW people, I don't make an attempt to criticize or put them down in reality too.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:15 PM   #296 (permalink)
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Jillio - YES

rolling - already had my words
and religion was ALREADY part of the equation. it's the sad reality of the answer to the question when the question is:

<quote> ....What Is the Big Deal With Gay Marriage?

Why are some people against this? For example, lets say 2 gay people youve never met and most likely never will meet, decide to get married. What business is it of yours? Why would you even care? <endquote>



that being the original question, the answer is as evidenced by this thread...but notice that I did NOT write "....my religion" or "some religions" BUT

" ....in the West or U.S., people have generally been socialized to believe a myth of a certain behavior pattern, and especially in religious terms. People may not have thought of any other way or seen something besides what they're used to. So they have all biases and misperceptions.
I think is crazy to not allow gay people to get married, just look at all the jobs it would create! Marriage is an dying institution, less men and women are getting married today. You would think states would want to allow gay marriages, but the politicians are afraid of losing backing from conservatives
voters, I think it more about candidates wanting to get votes than about what the bible say! I God does not belong in political debates. The government and church are to be separate!
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:15 PM   #297 (permalink)
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I never said or even implied that everyone follows Jesus.

I won't lie about what Jesus said, or let others lie about what he said.

Jesus didn't marginalize or discriminate against anyone.

You can slander me if you want but that takes the cake when you misrepresent Jesus.
How am I slandering you? I am simply repeating what you are yourself, saying.

You see it as misrepresentation. I see it as truth. See the subjectivity involved? I would never consider using my interpretation to deny you legal rights. Yet you would justify the same against others by your subjective interpretation of something in a book.

If Jesus or God has a problem with anything I say, I'm sure they will find a way to let me know. You really don't need to speak for them.

You are correct. Jesus didn't marginalize. So why do those who claim to worship in his name make a habit of that practice?
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:19 PM   #298 (permalink)
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Just an FYI to anyone that happens to live in this part of the US... there's going to be a massive protest FOR the legalization of gay marriage on Sat, Nov. 5th in Cincinnati, OH. Here are the details:

Log In | Facebook

I'll be there!
Oh goody! I will send my goons.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:23 PM   #299 (permalink)
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Oh goody! I will send my goons.
Knowing Cincinnati as well as I do, I don't think your goons would go over well.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 02:24 PM   #300 (permalink)
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The way I see it, we permitted discrimination and horrendous hate crimes against people of color as long as those who were not directly affected failed to take a stand and speak out against the injustice. When people of all races had their sensibilities offended long enough, they came together and change happened. It will be the same way with this issue. Straight people are beginning to join with the GLTB population and take a stand against discrimination and hate. The tide will again turn. It is just a shame that so many will remain passive until push comes to shove.
I think you are wrong on this.....Time will tell.
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