Nesmuth

I see the deaf community is evolving into a new society that is more interfaceable with the hearing society.

We have cochlear implant technology along with oral deaf education leading the deaf society as we know it into a new society where deaf people can interface with the hearing society on their own without the dependence on the 'big deaf industries' that cash in on our special needs.

The ASL hardliners are going about the change the same way the oil industry goes about electric cars. With the ASL hardliners having zero abilities to prevent deaf kids from getting their hearing screened, getting the implants , and being raised in an oral environment, it's safe to say that resistance is futile at this evolution of our deaf society.

Any comments?

Richard Roehm

Deafness

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Megladon

I believe your entire post to be incredibly retarted. Short of something life threatning no one can make you have anything done to your children, and even then its 50/50 because you can site religous beliefs. What is so wrong about having your childrens hearing tested? Same with the implant, what is so wrong about it? If you dont like it then fine, dont get it, but dont think less about someone else because they make a choice to hear. Your post is way off target, and you take the "they are coming to get us" approach. Its not going to happen, and if you wanna stay deaf, then fine stay deaf, i dont care, i'm happy how i am, and i dont care how you are. Maybe if more people took that approach, i'm happy how i am, and you can do whatever you wanna do so long as it doesnt step on my rights, then we'd all be a little better off.

VamPyroX

If we're screwed, then I'd have to say that these deaf people who get CI's and "screw deaf culture" are actually nobody.

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Youens

Megladon,

I would have to agree with Richard to the extent. It is not about staying deaf or seeing the idea of implanation as a threat to our very culture. Although I cannot speak for others, but at some degree, I have to admit that I see the evolution of using cochlear implants as a form of abuse.

There are so many parents out there who honestly do not know what to do after finding that their children are deaf. It is safe to say that they often do not make informed decisions regarding to cochlear implants.

While it is nothing wrong to choose the best possible option there is for our deaf children, it seems that many parents fail to realize that cochlear implants are in fact a temporary problem to a permanent problem. Improving one person's ability to hear can only go far, even with our latest wonderful technologies.

Based on my research, the average hearing person has well over 200 channels to hear and the best cochlear implants we have today can only go up to 27 channels and even so, not everyone can benefit all 27 channels.

It is like trying to achive the impossiblity and while focusing on the child's weakest link, it can do a lot of damage to the child's self-esteem.

That is very reason why I do not support cochlear implants. It's like giving many of these parents false hope or false sense of security.

More than 20 years ago, hearing aid was huge fad, something short of wonderful American dream. My parents thought they were doing me a favor by enrolling me in oral program, urging me to wear hearing aid and forbidding any of my chance to use sign language and ASL was considered a big NO-NO, even today. I had to endure many intensive speech and audoritary training sessions. It often made me feel miserable and incomplete for not being able to "catch up."

When my parents finally agreed to let me go to deaf boarding school for my high school years after years of persuasion on my part, it was like a dream finally comes true. Everyone speaks a language where I can understand without any possible misunderstandings or awkwardnesses. The best part is that, as my ASL becomes more fluent, my writing skill soared.

I honestly wish more people would open their minds and see ASL as a wonderful addition, not as a threat or substractive language that causes a child to be confused or weaker the child's ability to excel when it comes to learning English.

On the final note, while many of you may benefit from wearing cochlear implants, it is important to acknowledge ASL or American Sign Language is indeed a language and no one loses when it comes to learn a new language, right?

My two cent worth....

Frisky Feline

Very well said. I have to agree too. your situation is similiar as my dh's experiences..

Levonian

Cochlear implantation is just as much a ‘big deaf industry’ as any other commodity or service marketed towards the deaf. Even if you can con the feds and your insurance carrier into paying for most or all of it, have you priced the ****ing batteries lately? Wearing your CI all the time costs about as much as a typical tobacco habit—which isn’t cheap these days.

I’m not knocking cochlear implantation—there’s nothing inherently ‘wrong’ with CI’s. But until the technology improves markedly, it’s just single-sided deafness with a 25 db loss on the hearing side—and of course that 25 db figure is stated in terms of pure tone audiometry. That's better than nothing in most people’s opinion, but it's hardly much to write home about. Oralism, even at it’s best, is like trying to figure out what a jigsaw puzzle’s picture is by assembling the puzzle. You can do it that way if you want, and there’s nothing wrong with that approach, but it’s a hell of a lot easier to just look at the picture on the front of the box.

kuifje75

Actually, a lot of people seem to have misconceptions about the CI process. Some doctors encourage their parents to have their child tested with hearing aids first. If it doesn't seem to work, then they go onto having CIs. I'm really learning a lot from my work as a Deaf Mentor, and some parents actually think differently from what some Deaf militants may think. Some parents have told me that they wanted the best for their child, BUT if their child doesnt want to wear CI that certain day or permanently, then they would respect it. They love the Deaf Culture and try to go to deaf community activities, etc... It's really impressive.

deafdyke

Actually that is inaccurate. Only about 20% of implantees are "oral superstars" and don't need traditional "dhh interventions" Most implantees fall between Superstars and Get No Benifit from Implant. Besides even if virtually all pediatric implantees were superstars, that doesn't negate the fact that implantations come at a huge price....namely increase in health care costs. Sure the implant in and of itself is covered by many insurances, BUT lots of the associated costs aren't covered (like MAPs, batteries, rehab costs, doc appointments and more)
On theother hand, implantees are evenly divided between orals and TCers. I don't support oralism (b/c it does mess up a lot of kids self esteem....you would not educate a child who was defienct in math but gifted in English by exlusively concentrating on their defiects in math would you?) I think CIs can be good for some people...there are conditions where hearing aids do not help at all.
Excellent point! High powered hearing aids were THE thing that was going to help deaf kids function in the mainstream even fifteen years ago! Yet gosharootie it really didn't keep dhh kids from learning ASL now did it?
As per FDA regulations unless a kid has auditory nereopathy a trial with hearing aids (six months if I recall correctly) is the norm. That's true Koufie. There are hearing parents who are OK with Deaf culture and who embrace it as something that can enhance their child's life. I am also somewhat of a Deaf mentor (with a focus on advocating for the right of hoh kids to learn ASL/Sign) and I see a ton of hearing parents be more open to exposing their hoh kids to sign. Matter of fact, I know of at least two little girls who are hoh who are attending schools for the Deaf! And I even know of at least two or three kids with unilateral losses who are attending schools for the deaf!

Megladon

Youens, i still think your a bit misguided. I could be wrong but i believe there are now more deaf people then ever before, for a "culture" that is vanishing or has its days numbered, it seems to be growing. As far as parents that do things for their children, i cant fault them for wanting whats best for their child. I can understand you felt horrible going to classes that didnt seem to help, and its a shame your parents made you go, but they must have thought it would help in some way or they wouldnt have made you go. For the life of me i just cant understand what people on alldeaf have against being able to hear. Ci's arnt a problem as someone put it, its not a sure fire fix, its not even a unlikely fix, its an aid to help people that would like to be able to hear, and what is really wrong with that if someone wants to hear? I could go into what i feel is the problem, but at this point in the day i'm not up for a fight and would rather not get booted for voicing my oppinion.

Nesmuth

Spoken like a cheerful captain of a sinking ship. This exceedingly positive statement and the enthusiasm behind it can be as deadly as the reality faced by deaf society these days.

Richard Roehm

deafdyke

Yes....it's been almost twenty years since the implant was first popularized for children. I remember the oral experts predicted that Deaf culture would be dead by now. That's b/c they thought that only stone deaf people could be culturally Deaf. Richard, I don't think Megleodon is the cheerful captian of a sinking ship. Sure deaf culture has changed...but it's far from dead. Many implantees still identify as Deaf and many orally educated dhh kids will pick up ASL as a second language. I can. I understand wanting the best possible education....but they don't realize that an orally educated kid is very often poorly literate and that a pure oral education can cost a dhh kid precious self-esteem. I am NOT against speech therapy or oral training...very few of us are. We're just wondering why many parents think that it's best for their kid to be in an eternal speech therapy session. Yes, oral skills are valuable....but they shouldn't be the be all and end all of a dhh kid's education! I've noticed that a lot of the parents who choose oral only are still kinda ****ed up psychologically speaking about their dhh kid's lack of hearing. Yes there are parents who see it as a cool useful addition to their child's skills , but there are TONS of "healthy normal" "my child doesn't need "speshal needs stuff" parents!

GalaxyAngel

otherwise, My far concern about CI... I'm not in position ci .. I've seen some of my peepz who has CI.. which there have expense lot of money to have an operation cost and Mapping/Audiogoily/re-call/appointment to attend oralisim/and much more. Feel more increase purity all over your shoulder cost you more unpatience attend.
Hosp/Doctors and others are trying to get your $$$ lot of money and in case future changed better techogly than old ones and have to replace cost you more another operation. Would be more challenge fear?

Hearing Aid still cheaper but not 100% fully of hear as well isn't same of CI's typicial, of course..

How can make Advocacy for DHH/HH cost expense ?? I do not think so! On your own pocket and expense reilable of your insurance whoever willing pay 100% or less whatever depend on insurance cost willing coverage or not.

I do disagree with parent who trying to be child's happy future comes w/ci.. ? Nope..
All expections by parent happy not child!

Depend on child or teenage or Adult whatever, name it.. which there have prodfound Deaf and impossible have ci.. can way possible provide ci will come works ?
"Following up the db of percent"
If course too long way and cost you eating up your expense money.. Isn't fun for challenge ?

btw... Still counts lot of money expense for that..

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Megladon

Ok, this is my last post to you on this as you are 1 of 2 things, retarted, or doing this to get the thread to continue. I will assume it is the first for now. So your first post it was the end of the deaf world, everyone wants deaf people to be able to hear (not that there is anything wrong with that if it was true) everyone is out to get you and your babys, now reading that there are more deaf people then ever before, better communication between them and a greater sharing of ideas, this is even worse then it was before when you just thought people were out to get you. Please, if your going to do a flip flop like that atleast wait a while, not in your first week.

Boult

I did my own research and gave the answer to one person who though hearing has thousands channels than CI users have. I gave him this answers:
in first email;
Then in next email;
so for the newest Auria HiRes 90K internal implant by Advanced Bionic;
Internal Implant Technical Specifications:

Information update rate: 90,000 updates per second

Stimulation rate: 83,000 pulses per second

Independent output circuits: 16 <----

Information channels: 16 with current HiResolution software <----

Internal Memory

Stimulation Strategies: Simultaneous, partially simultaneous, and non-simultaneous options including HiRes (HiRes-P and HiRes-S) and emulation of MPS and CIS with current software.

Pulsatile or analog waveforms

Monopolar or bipolar coupling (expandable to multi-polar with future software *)

Patented HiFocus Electrode: 16 electrode contacts that are designed to focus stimulation toward the nerve fibers

Diagnostics: Neural Response Imaging (NRI)

Telemetry: Bi-Directional communication link

======
Have a great weekend!

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apkeats26

If a CI will work for somebody, especially a deaf child, I feel like the parents should definitely go for it. While I am hearing, I don't think life a deaf person, however...I have had the experience of music, sounds, speech, and hearing. I feel that if somebody CAN experience this, then they SHOULD.

Music is huge, I can't imagine life without it. I've got it on right now. I would get a CI just for that if I had to.

Megladon

As a person that can hear, i understand where you are coming from, what you have to realize is that for some reason i have yet to understand, some deaf people feel this incredible zelious towards staying deaf and keeping other deaf people from being able to hear. My views on those people i will keep to myself.

deafdyke

Wait a sec.....first Nesmuth posts that the Deaf community is changing and then his next post says that it's dying. Huh? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. There are STILL some parents who are raising their kids with Sign only, and there are still many parents who are raising their kids with TC. Even many of the kids who receive an oral education will pick up Sign as their second language. We'll have to wait a few years to see if the doomsayers predictions are in fact correct. I think that the Deaf community IS changing...in a good way. More people are realizing that it's not about how much hearing you do or don't have that makes you Deaf...and that's good b/c it opens up the Deaf community to more hoh people....hey it'll open up the Deaf culture to hearing people who use Sign as their primary language due to things like tracheostomies, apraxia and things like that.
Huh? People with implants are still deaf (the way people with hearing aids are still deaf) Besides even without implants most dhh people have useful residual hearing (at least according to Auditory-Verbal International and professionals like Ling, and Pollack and Beebe)

Miss-Delectable

Hmm, *reflective look*.....

I am not militant nor will I ever be.

But I must say I agree with many aspects of what Youens and Deafdyke said.

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apkeats26

As I say, it's ok to be stupid, yes, even acceptable, but ignorance is a problem.

Tousi

I don't know....when the originator of this topic threw this out for our edification, I think he did so just to have us say what we think; not necessarily that he was railing against it. For all we know, he may be jumping up and down with glee at this supposed evolution. He's not"retarted"(sic).....just throwing out something for us to talk about, jeezzz.

Megladon

Then why was it posted in On-topic Debates rather then General? I still stand by my "retarted" comment

Nesmuth

I find the response to be very interesting. Community seems to take a softer than expected tone toward evolution of society and I'm confident we wont be expecting quasi-terrorist actions from the ASL zealots over the CI issue.

Richard Roehm

Youens

"Community seems to take a softer than expected tone toward evolution of society and I'm confident we wont be expecting quasi-terrorist actions from the ASL zealots over the CI issue."

Richard, what do you expect? Many of us are well aware that larger society have somewhat misunderstood views of deaf people or how we want to THROW out CI to preserve our culture. It isn't true. Not at all.

We just want the public to be aware of possible dangers for discouraging their deaf children to learn ASL. (In order to make CI devices work, one must undergo intensive trainings, especially in cases with prelinguistic deaf children.)

I like to consider myself having a black belt in using ASL, but I find it rather unhealthy to uphold militant attitude against the world. It's our job to educate people, not to blame them or work with them instead of against them.

If you honestly want stronger tone, be my guest and if I am right, it's highly likely that you'd receive less support by using that approach.

I like to think of in this way, we as a society are changing for better. Don't speak of us, join us.

deafdyke

Exactly!!!!!! I know that many hearing parents aren't nessarily anti-Deaf....they just want their child's first language to be spoken English. Many hearing parents are OK with their orally educated dhh kids learning ASL...there are some yuppie types or some parents who are still wallowing in despair over the fact that their child has a...OH NO...DISABILTY! But overall, many hearing parents who send their kids to oral schools aren't doing so b/c they want their kids to be oral deaf adults or b/c they see Sign as "not normal" but just b/c they want their kids to have English as a first language.

Megladon

I cant argue with that, someday when i have children, i really hope they are born able to hear. If they are not, or become deaf, i would try to teach them spoken english, and they would for sure learn ASL. If spoken english just isnt a possiblity for whatever reason then i wouldnt push it. As far as a CI goes, that would be for me and mrs whomever i marry to decide after we talk about it and research the issue on side affects and other things.

Liza

I want my kids to learn ASL, NSL, spoken/written English, written/spoken bokmal Norwegian and nynorsk - whether or not they are deaf.

blue120

I am not necessarilly against CI, oral, Deafies or ASL but I am learning and yes, remain ignorant about some of the issues.
In my opinion, I am against putting CI in a young deaf child as I know a few who disgarded CIs when they got older. They are still deaf.
Having gone thru speech therapy and wearing phonic ears for years, I am pleased with the results for myself as they are worth it. I even learned sign language at a young age. My family are supportive.
Understand this, parents want the very best for their deaf children.
When the deaf or hoh children get older, they will make choices as individuals regarding their communication modes, hearing devices or their identities.
That can change over the years.
I was talking to a friend another day and he said that Gallaudet College is struggling to keep losing their federal funding by accpeing students with their reading and writing grade levels like for example, 5th grade, to keep the quota.
Oh goodness. I now wonder what will happen to Gallaudet if this trend continues. The reason why? More and more deaf and hoh are choosing to go to colleges near their home or other states.
We have to face the fact...the dynamics in deaf society are changing so we have to go with the flow. ASL will be still there but on a smaller scale. We don't know how fast that number will shrink. It is sad...but we can preserve ASL somehow.
There will be other choices for us as individuals-our right to communnicate in a way we want to, our right to pick our identity, and to decide what is right even if we think if it is not right.
Even I don't really go on well with oralists. I cannot lipread as I cannot see that well. I don't know if they want to use sign or write. Sigh...It is frustrating.
Change is alway part of our lives so we need to go with the flow.
blue120

johnesco

Sometimes I meet deaf people who want to be "left alone" by the hearing. Yet they want every benefit that comes form tax dollars.

When people say "CI can be paid for" they forget it is tax money from everyone, hearing or deaf that is used.

I don't know if the CI and big business part is true, but I do know that you do not have to hate or mistreat the hearing just to maintain deaf culture, nor do you have to prevent the deaf from hearing.

There is something very unique about growing up D/deaf which I'm sure I may never understand, but I try.

Sometimes, it seems people who are deaf only want to be around other deaf people to avoid communications problems.

However, isolation is not the answer. And isolation will happen for as long as Deaf and Hearing don't try to communicate.

Go teach a hearie ASL today.

PrincessTabu

So well said! NOBODY learns from criticism. I understand the frustration that Deaf people feel, because as a parent of a deaf child I too feel frustrated that parents really receive NO information about the Deaf Community or Deaf Culture when their child is diagnosed. Because the Deaf Community is not well known, parents have no idea. They're going by what they're told by professionals who ALSO don't know or don't want to know. So, rather than criticize, I've become active. I advocate, I network, I help, I talk, I listen. I've gotten a lot more positive results than I'd ever get by going on the attack. Sometimes you have to be forceful, but it's always a last resort.

deafdyke

Even with CIs only about 30% of deafies receive an oral education.
That is only about 20% higher then it was when we were young. Oral deaf education has been around for hundreds of years and yet we Deafies are STILL here and living and growing!!!!!