Detail or No Detail?

Jiro · 10-11-2009, 04:55 AM

New Oklahoma law will publicy post details of women’s abortions online.

Quote:

On Nov. 1, a law in Oklahoma will go into effect that will collect personal details about every single abortion performed in the state and post them on a public website. Implementing the measure will “cost $281,285 the first year and $256,285 each subsequent year.” Here are the first eight questions that women will have to reveal:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed)
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions

Although the questionnaire does not ask for name, address, or “any information specifically identifying the patient,” as Feminists for Choice points out, these eight questions could easily be used to identify a woman in a small community. “They’re really just trying to frighten women out of having abortions,” Keri Parks, director of external affairs at Planned Parenthood of Central Oklahoma, said. The Center for Reproductive Rights is challenging the law, arguing that “it violates the Oklahoma Constitution because it ‘covers more than one subject’ — a challenge that previously worked to strike down an abortion ultrasound law.”

I suppose this is ok since no personal info like name and address will be mentioned. I feel that this data may prove a valuable data for.... whatever.

Mrs Bucket · 10-11-2009, 05:07 AM

I feel this is wrong ethically and morally because women and their families are at their most vulnerable when an abortion is needed.

We do not want the "coat-hanger" abortions to be an option when we have this law.

Jiro · 10-11-2009, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket

I feel this is wrong ethically and morally because women and their families are at their most vulnerable when an abortion is needed.

We do not want the "coat-hanger" abortions to be an option when we have this law.

with these data (excluding personal info) - it may provide a very valuable information for legislators and law enforcement to come up with an effective plan:

1. to protect women from being a rape victim
2. to promote program and education for healthy relationship (due to widespread of domestic violence, divorce, teen pregnancy, etc.)
3. to study and understand this trend from psychological perspective
4. ...

each state is different and has different trend. One state may have a high # of abortions due to rape and for other state, it may be due to teen unprotected sex. With this data, the government, educators, and health personnel can effectively allocate funding to address the issue with right tool in right place for specific scenario instead of providing one tool for all - a waste of money and resource.

My only concern - the certain groups would use this data for their misguided agenda. But I'm not seeing something else negative about this since I'm not a woman so please do explain it for me.

Mrs Bucket · 10-11-2009, 05:25 AM

My only main concern is the information that will be used against the women. Thank goodness their personal information such as names, addresses and so on will not be revealed.

Can you imagine some misguided groups going after them with a one track mind just to proselytize their agenda?

This is where I find it unethical and immoral because what if it had been a 12 year old frightened girl that had an abortion with her mother's consent. The reason for the abortion? Her father molested her & she got pregnant from this horrible experience.

What if that misguided group went after her thinking she was a young lady of the night?

That's my dilemma.

Royale · 10-11-2009, 05:58 AM

It is a gross violation of privacy although they would not name patients IMHO.

Frisky Feline · 10-11-2009, 08:47 AM

I feel this is so wrong. I agree what mrs bucket said it all. Asking those ladies some personal questions are out of orders.

jillio · 10-11-2009, 03:25 PM

States already track the number of abortions performed, as well as pertinent demographic information. This measure is redundant. It would appear to be a move by the anti-abortionists to create a climate of fear for those who seek a medical procedure.

sallylou · 10-11-2009, 03:35 PM

IMHO,this is to intimidate women. It's like the protesters at clinics. Many of these protests occur at clinics who do not offer abortions, but both men and women are seeking medical care (pap smears, birth control, testing for diseases, etc.). It's especially important for people to have access to clinics because many people don't have insurance.

Jiro · 10-11-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs Bucket

My only main concern is the information that will be used against the women. Thank goodness their personal information such as names, addresses and so on will not be revealed.

Can you imagine some misguided groups going after them with a one track mind just to proselytize their agenda?

This is where I find it unethical and immoral because what if it had been a 12 year old frightened girl that had an abortion with her mother's consent. The reason for the abortion? Her father molested her & she got pregnant from this horrible experience.

What if that misguided group went after her thinking she was a young lady of the night?

That's my dilemma.

since no name and address will be disclosed nor recorded, the misguided group would not know who the young lady is. I believe this would benefit more than its harm.... but that's just my opinion.

Jiro · 10-11-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

States already track the number of abortions performed, as well as pertinent demographic information. This measure is redundant. It would appear to be a move by the anti-abortionists to create a climate of fear for those who seek a medical procedure.

oh??? I didn't expect that. interesting.... so since the information is already being recorded... the only difference is that the data is not available for public viewing, correct?

jillio · 10-11-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh??? I didn't expect that. interesting.... so since the information is already being recorded... the only difference is that the data is not available for public viewing, correct?

Yes. The CDC already compiles the stats. The results can be seen from their data, but the source of the individual data sets cannot.

CJB · 10-11-2009, 07:31 PM

They should at least leave out the bolded questions to provide more anonymity. They're not needed for statistics of any kind.

Quote:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions

At least that would eliminate most of the personal information that could be used to track someone down in a small community.

Jiro · 10-11-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes. The CDC already compiles the stats. The results can be seen from their data, but the source of the individual data sets cannot.

I wasn't aware of that. Now I'm beginning to see that this legislation may be the work of a certain group with agenda whose intention is to ban abortion.

jillio · 10-11-2009, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I wasn't aware of that. Now I'm beginning to see that this legislation may be the work of a certain group with agenda whose intention is to ban abortion.

You're welcome. Yes, it certainly makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Foxrac · 10-12-2009, 06:02 AM

Ugh, I bet women would go to Texas to have abortion instead of Oklahoma.

sallylou · 10-12-2009, 01:44 PM

foxrac, it effects the women without resources the most. Some women can't afford to travel. Some women can't find someone to go with them far away. Basically, those who can afford to travel get abortions and those of limited means are punished.

LDNanna · 10-13-2009, 12:37 AM

Jiro: where the word "abortion" appears, try thinking of it on a male level, say...um... as if you were answering this data about yourself, Sperm donor "father" lives..... If they were pinpointing the male would it make a bigger difference? I betcha that it would! Bet there would be the outcry from hell. Why? Because then the male is made to bear a certain responsibility rather than delegating blame and responsibility solely on the female. (opinion only) I also believe that like child support, a male should be made to pay for a portion of the procedure if it is possible or prudent without damaging the right to choice or privacy. This does not apply to rape cases, I think we all know what rapists should do... ahem.... back to the topic...

I also have a bit of a nitpicky issue with "mother" term being used, it smacks of "a certain group" that would use emotional propoganda, but that wasnt the issue at hand. My long winded, rambling point being, this is a very personal, very emotional, and should be a private procedure. As mentioned above, this data could be used for harm, intimidation and embarassment of not only the woman but families of both male and female. Yes, especially in small communities. (good point)
This data should never be made public. This is not verifiable, only an opinion. This is a very touchy subject, and I am not picking at you, just hoping that you would put yourself in the subject's place, walk in her shoes, and wonder how it would affect your choice if you knew this would be posted on a public site? Maybe it would not matter in NYC, or some other big area because of anonymity in numbers, but we are talking Oklahoma, and any other place that might get this idea. There are towns here where there may be only 50 women of reproductive age... bet it would be really easy to target who .....

dogmom · 10-13-2009, 09:29 AM

this seems to be a way of certain hidden agenda, couched in "legality" or formalization. What this ends up doing is promoting stigma and unsafe conditions for abortions and penalizes those who can least afford services-

don't approve of abortion, don't have one-

***Jolie77*** · 10-13-2009, 07:51 PM

Eech, abortion issues are always never a easy subject to talk about.

I have mixed approach about this law that will be in effect. For one, I think it is a good idea to use it for data purposes but however, I feel that some of the questions on the lists should not have to be incorporated. Much less, for those to be put up on a public website - scary. That would open a lot of doors to various groups to try to use it against those women who are wanting to have an abortion or for those who had one. I thought, for one, a medical information shouldn't have to be released to begin with unless it was consented.

Quote:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions

Why does the martial status, race and years of education matters? I think those also should have not to be included since it is personal as well.

jillio · 10-13-2009, 09:56 PM

The reasoning behind the information you have bolded goes right back to the hidden agenda. The anti-abortionists, for years, have attempted to claim that abortion laws take advantage of racial minorities, women living in poverty, and the undereducated women. They are asking this information in an attempt to prove what is already shown to be erroneous, simply to give them ammunition for claiming that the law is prejudicial.

Reba · 10-13-2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LDNanna

... There are towns here where there may be only 50 women of reproductive age... bet it would be really easy to target who .....

I didn't see "town" listed, only "county."

saywhatkid · 10-16-2009, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJB

They should at least leave out the bolded questions to provide more anonymity. They're not needed for statistics of any kind.
At least that would eliminate most of the personal information that could be used to track someone down in a small community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jolie77

Why does the martial status, race and years of education matters? I think those also should have not to be included since it is personal as well.

So, between these two posters, we eliminate 6 of the 8 categories. Let's see what is left, which I have bolded:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed)
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions

After we get the age of the patient, we get to the real sticky question here, which is the last one. Funny thing is, that is the one I have a problem with. How much honesty do they think will be presented here? How many will give false replies? Why did the Oklahoma legislature and Governor feel the need to spend, in my estimate, many hours of their time to come up with this? To all the tax-hating Conservatives: is this a worthy cause to spend our tax dollars, while we avoid investing in roads? What matters more: keeping things running, or running our lives?

Let's not pussyfoot around here; either we post the full name (with photo), or we don't bother with this project at all. Why do this half-assed? Why not, while we are at it, force the patient to watch the procedure using closed circuit video? Maybe that would discourage them.

I have no womb. I cannot get pregnant. I cannot carry a fetus. Therefore, it is not my issue. I also feel that other men should consider BUTTING OUT of the abortion debate, but I can hear the howls of protest. I don't feel it is my right to make the decision for women, nor should my opinion matter.

Well, look at the time! Now bowing out.

jillio · 10-16-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saywhatkid

So, between these two posters, we eliminate 6 of the 8 categories. Let's see what is left, which I have bolded:

1. Date of abortion
2. County in which abortion performed
3. Age of mother
4. Marital status of mother
(married, divorced, separated, widowed, or never married)
5. Race of mother
6. Years of education of mother
(specify highest year completed)
7. State or foreign country of residence of mother
8. Total number of previous pregnancies of the mother
Live Births
Miscarriages
Induced Abortions

After we get the age of the patient, we get to the real sticky question here, which is the last one. Funny thing is, that is the one I have a problem with. How much honesty do they think will be presented here? How many will give false replies? Why did the Oklahoma legislature and Governor feel the need to spend, in my estimate, many hours of their time to come up with this? To all the tax-hating Conservatives: is this a worthy cause to spend our tax dollars, while we avoid investing in roads? What matters more: keeping things running, or running our lives?

Let's not pussyfoot around here; either we post the full name (with photo), or we don't bother with this project at all. Why do this half-assed? Why not, while we are at it, force the patient to watch the procedure using closed circuit video? Maybe that would discourage them.

I have no womb. I cannot get pregnant. I cannot carry a fetus. Therefore, it is not my issue. I also feel that other men should consider BUTTING OUT of the abortion debate, but I can hear the howls of protest. I don't feel it is my right to make the decision for women, nor should my opinion matter.

Well, look at the time! Now bowing out.

I think I am falling in love with you, kid!

saywhatkid · 10-17-2009, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I think I am falling in love with you, kid!

sallylou · 10-17-2009, 10:35 AM

Saywhatkid, add me to your fan club.

KarissaMann05 · 10-17-2009, 10:43 AM

at #23, #24, and #25

Oceanbreeze · 10-17-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I think I am falling in love with you, kid!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Saywhatkid, add me to your fan club.

And, me.

sallylou · 10-17-2009, 11:44 AM

Who wants to be president of the SYK fan club? Nominations?

saywhatkid · 10-17-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I think I am falling in love with you, kid!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Saywhatkid, add me to your fan club.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

And, me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Who wants to be president of the SYK fan club? Nominations?

Picture of a young boy screaming, with hands clasped to his cheeks. From movie "Home Alone"

sallylou · 10-17-2009, 05:27 PM

10-11-2009, 05:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
Mrs Bucket has retired from AllDeaf. Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,348	I feel this is wrong ethically and morally because women and their families are at their most vulnerable when an abortion is needed. We do not want the "coat-hanger" abortions to be an option when we have this law. __________________ My new nieces/nephews are arriving soon!

10-11-2009, 05:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mrs Bucket has retired from AllDeaf. Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,348	My only main concern is the information that will be used against the women. Thank goodness their personal information such as names, addresses and so on will not be revealed. Can you imagine some misguided groups going after them with a one track mind just to proselytize their agenda? This is where I find it unethical and immoral because what if it had been a 12 year old frightened girl that had an abortion with her mother's consent. The reason for the abortion? Her father molested her & she got pregnant from this horrible experience. What if that misguided group went after her thinking she was a young lady of the night? That's my dilemma. __________________ My new nieces/nephews are arriving soon!

10-11-2009, 03:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	IMHO,this is to intimidate women. It's like the protesters at clinics. Many of these protests occur at clinics who do not offer abortions, but both men and women are seeking medical care (pap smears, birth control, testing for diseases, etc.). It's especially important for people to have access to clinics because many people don't have insurance. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-12-2009, 06:02 AM	#15 (permalink)
Foxrac DOMESTIC DISSENT HUNTER Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 18,173	Ugh, I bet women would go to Texas to have abortion instead of Oklahoma. __________________

10-12-2009, 01:44 PM	#16 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	foxrac, it effects the women without resources the most. Some women can't afford to travel. Some women can't find someone to go with them far away. Basically, those who can afford to travel get abortions and those of limited means are punished. __________________ Happy holidays!

Today
Deafness	Sponsored Links __________________ This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

10-11-2009, 05:58 AM	#5 (permalink)
Royale Eek Doggah! Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: World's Second Coldest Capital City! Posts: 1,908	It is a gross violation of privacy although they would not name patients IMHO.

10-11-2009, 08:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
Frisky Feline Provoke, Pounce, Purr Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,712	I feel this is so wrong. I agree what mrs bucket said it all. Asking those ladies some personal questions are out of orders.

10-11-2009, 03:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 32,396	States already track the number of abortions performed, as well as pertinent demographic information. This measure is redundant. It would appear to be a move by the anti-abortionists to create a climate of fear for those who seek a medical procedure.

10-13-2009, 12:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
LDNanna Everything purple is mine Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 904	Jiro: where the word "abortion" appears, try thinking of it on a male level, say...um... as if you were answering this data about yourself, Sperm donor "father" lives..... If they were pinpointing the male would it make a bigger difference? I betcha that it would! Bet there would be the outcry from hell. Why? Because then the male is made to bear a certain responsibility rather than delegating blame and responsibility solely on the female. (opinion only) I also believe that like child support, a male should be made to pay for a portion of the procedure if it is possible or prudent without damaging the right to choice or privacy. This does not apply to rape cases, I think we all know what rapists should do... ahem.... back to the topic... I also have a bit of a nitpicky issue with "mother" term being used, it smacks of "a certain group" that would use emotional propoganda, but that wasnt the issue at hand. My long winded, rambling point being, this is a very personal, very emotional, and should be a private procedure. As mentioned above, this data could be used for harm, intimidation and embarassment of not only the woman but families of both male and female. Yes, especially in small communities. (good point) This data should never be made public. This is not verifiable, only an opinion. This is a very touchy subject, and I am not picking at you, just hoping that you would put yourself in the subject's place, walk in her shoes, and wonder how it would affect your choice if you knew this would be posted on a public site? Maybe it would not matter in NYC, or some other big area because of anonymity in numbers, but we are talking Oklahoma, and any other place that might get this idea. There are towns here where there may be only 50 women of reproductive age... bet it would be really easy to target who .....

10-13-2009, 09:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
dogmom Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,469	this seems to be a way of certain hidden agenda, couched in "legality" or formalization. What this ends up doing is promoting stigma and unsafe conditions for abortions and penalizes those who can least afford services- don't approve of abortion, don't have one-

10-13-2009, 09:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 32,396	The reasoning behind the information you have bolded goes right back to the hidden agenda. The anti-abortionists, for years, have attempted to claim that abortion laws take advantage of racial minorities, women living in poverty, and the undereducated women. They are asking this information in an attempt to prove what is already shown to be erroneous, simply to give them ammunition for claiming that the law is prejudicial.

10-17-2009, 10:35 AM	#25 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Saywhatkid, add me to your fan club. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-17-2009, 10:43 AM	#26 (permalink)
KarissaMann05 The Deaf Cougar Join Date: May 2007 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 4,463 Blog Entries: 13	at #23, #24, and #25

10-17-2009, 11:44 AM	#28 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Who wants to be president of the SYK fan club? Nominations? __________________ Happy holidays!

10-17-2009, 05:27 PM	#30 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	__________________ Happy holidays!

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