residential vs. mainstream - Page 2

kalboy · 10-20-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Kalboy, What do you mean "am I in a special ed program"? I'm not studying to be a special ed teacher, if that's what you mean. I do receive very basic minmal support services (basicly notetaker and extended time on tests and a waiver of my math requirement) but I have not been in a formal special ed program since preschool. (self-contained classroom for preschoolers with various and sundry disabilties) I do have many friends at college who are studying to be teachers, and I know more about educating kids with classic disabilties then they do!!!

I am speaking of preschool/elementary school education. I think a HUGE part of the reason why my generation (first to be fully totally completely mainstreamed under IDEA) didn't see significent gains in literacy or acheivement is due to the fact that while some of us went to schools for the deaf/ regional day programs a lot of us were just dumped in "general" special ed programs with teachers who may have only known a bare minimum of Sign or had not been taught how to teach deaf/hoh kids. Lots of us didn't even receive support services from an itinerant teacher of the Deaf/hoh, and we were just left to sink or swim in the mainstream. Too many of us fell through the cracks b/c we weren't properly taught in the early years. THAT is why deaf/hoh kids need special teaching methods. Also b/c most of the teaching methods in a mainstream school, are AURALLY based. Most deaf/hoh kids are VISUAL LEARNERS. Yes, I know there are early intervention programs but most of the time, the state funded ones aren't very good, as most of the therapists only have basic training. Most of the good therapists are in private practice. (where the good money is!) Personally, I think that ALL deaf/hoh kids should by law have to spend the early part of their education at a school for the deaf, and THEN get mainstreamed by proving that they have the skills nessary to achieve at a mainstream school. How is a mainstream preschool teacher supposed to teach a deaf/hoh kid how to read, if they don't know Cued Speech, bi-bi education etc?
I also think that mainstream high school teachers (and actually mainstream teachers in general) need to readjust their attitude towards deaf/hoh students.
FAR FAR too many mainstream teachers think that just b/c a deaf/hoh student is receiving special ed services, that automaticlly means that they are dumb slackers who simply don't want to get an education. (ala quite a few learning disabled students) or they think that b/c a person is smart, they can magicly overcome their disabilties with how smart they are and don't need any support services (like a notetaker) or whatever. Does this clarify things?

I think there are no one-glove-fit-all cases in that you just stated. Not all the deaf kids will be better off if they went to residential schools and transfer to mainstream schools later on. Children need friends, and once they make friends in residential schools it is hard for them to let go, education will not be the paramount importance in their eyes. Many deaf schools has a large number of clubs and sport teams, sometimes it may done more harm than good on the kids’ education.
I think those who transfer to mainstream schools later are usually the anti-social types who believe they will make better friends at other school, or they could be the oral-types who do not fit in, and again, this does not work in the advantage of education, but merely on a social concentration.
I think one way we can determine whether a young deaf child are better off at mainstream or deaf school is to put him/her through a series of psychological tests and auditory examination. Different level of hearing ability and attitude on social habit will group kids in common together. But I have to admit that this is not the best solution; a homogenous community is more painstaking than a diverse one.
I think you made many good points on the shortcoming of deaf education. I hope educators and parents will collaborate and reform those shortcomings. I personally experienced mainstream education and it works great for me, so each child has his/her own needs.

deafdyke · 10-20-2003, 01:44 PM

Kalboy, I don't approve of residental education for young(below 4th grade) kids, except if they are in the foster system, homeless or live in an extremely rural area.
I beleive that the majority of deaf/hoh kids can be aquatly served at regional day programs for the deaf, that have qualifed teachers who are fluent in ASL AND speech therapists who are experianced in working with deaf/hoh students. That is yet another disadvantage in going to a mainstream school....the speech therapist won't nessarly be experianced in working with deaf/hoh kids. I just don't think that most deaf/hoh students should automaticly start off at their neighborhood school.

Quote:

I think one way we can determine whether a young deaf child are better off at mainstream or deaf school is to put him/her through a series of psychological tests and auditory examination. Different level of hearing ability and attitude on social habit will group kids in common together. But I have to admit that this is not the best solution; a homogenous community is more painstaking than a diverse one.

Actually, I think that deaf/hoh students should have to pass a test in order to go to a mainstream school, in order to prove that they have mastered the skills nessary to function at that school. It'll be a safety net thing, so that noone will fall through the cracks...we have far far far too many people falling through the academic cracks.
I don't think that we should group kids together by hearing abilty....That reinforces the myth that hoh people aren't "really deaf"

kalboy · 10-20-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Kalboy, I don't approve of residental education for young(below 4th grade) kids, except if they are in the foster system, homeless or live in an extremely rural area.
I beleive that the majority of deaf/hoh kids can be aquatly served at regional day programs for the deaf, that have qualifed teachers who are fluent in ASL AND speech therapists who are experianced in working with deaf/hoh students. That is yet another disadvantage in going to a mainstream school....the speech therapist won't nessarly be experianced in working with deaf/hoh kids. I just don't think that most deaf/hoh students should automaticly start off at their neighborhood school.

Actually, I think that deaf/hoh students should have to pass a test in order to go to a mainstream school, in order to prove that they have mastered the skills nessary to function at that school. It'll be a safety net thing, so that noone will fall through the cracks...we have far far far too many people falling through the academic cracks.
I don't think that we should group kids together by hearing abilty....That reinforces the myth that hoh people aren't "really deaf"

I have to disagree with you on that deaf/hoh students have to pass a test to go to mainstream schools. That is like justifying that deaf schools are easier than mainstream schools and I do not think that is the point you are attempting to make. A better solution should be a test on the mainstream school’s ability to provide reasonable accommodation and the hearing teachers attitudes on their willingness to accommodate a deaf student in their classrooms. Since we have a public school education system here, it is uncalled for to test a student’s ability on how well they can fit in the class. I think with proper accommodations, deaf students can do just as well as their hearing peers.

Also there exists different level of hearing loss, if a hoh students can learn how to speak and use their remaining hearing ability, why not reveal their potential?

deafdyke · 10-20-2003, 08:56 PM

Quote:

I think with proper accommodations, deaf students can do just as well as their hearing peers.

Oh...I agree. I am NOT anti-mainstreaming. I just think that the sitution that peacetrain describes in her post is too common

Quote:

There are so many deaf kids since the inclusion laws took effect who are out in reg. ed. schools w/staff that hasn't a clue how to educate them or help them develop the social skills to make it in this world. Sure, some kids do great, it really works for them, but others keep getting further and further behind until they're so far behind they send them to the school for the deaf. Then everyone says how uneducated the students at the school for the deaf is. But in reality it's our strong inclusion policy that's hurting many students. I'm not saying all students should be in a school for the deaf, but my son is, and he's getting a far better education now than he had been before, when he was in a regional program

I just think that everyone should start out in a school for the deaf, and then mainstream..A lot of hearing parents of deaf/hoh kids have no idea of the services and things that are required to educate deaf/hoh kids. Not all parents are the AGBell-style rabid mainstream advocates who know sped law by heart.
We now have exams that students must take in order to graduate from school. Why not have entrance exams like they do in college? (for everyone)

[/quote]Also there exists different level of hearing loss, if a hoh students can learn how to speak and use their remaining hearing ability, why not reveal their potential?[/quote]
Sigh....that really does reinforce the myths that a) hoh students have more in common with hearing people then with deaf people and b) if deaf/hoh students are exposed to ASL/Deaf culture they won't want to hear and talk or they won't use their residual hearing as well as "pure" oralists.

Lantana · 10-20-2003, 09:51 PM

Kalboy, I think you are speaking thru your (where the sun does not shine).

THIS particular argument can go on until the end of time and it still will not be solved.

Most of us here speak from strong EXPERIENCE, what about you?

I worked in a residential school for 25 years and we had quite a few foster children (who went home on weekends to a foster home). They got picked on, but most of them survived.

We cannot have a "one size fits all" education for handicapped children. It is bad enough having to have it for hearing children. But it is the best we have to offer and most of us survive despite all the hardships.

My son is the Financial Manager of a large school district. He tells me that there are $75,000.00 a year children. And most of these children will never be able to live in a normal world, despite their expensive "education".

deafdyke · 10-20-2003, 10:30 PM

Thanks Lantana, It just seems like too many people hold mainstreaming up as the ulimate wonderful glorious goal. You're right a "one size does not fit all" mentality doesn't work with deaf/hoh students. That is why mainstreaming isn't all it's cracked up to be....mainstreaming has a "one size fits all mentality"(eg all kids in sped are just stupid suburban slackers who shopped around for a designer LD dx) ...even without the deafness I would still not have fit in very well in the mainstream b/c I am brainy and eccentric. I'm not saying the deaf schools are heaven...I'm just pointing out the bad side of mainstreaming.

kalboy · 10-21-2003, 01:14 AM

[quote=deafdyke]
We now have exams that students must take in order to graduate from school. Why not have entrance exams like they do in college? (for everyone)
QUOTE]

You hit another critical point here. Deaf schools do not require students to take an exit examination once they graduate from high school whereas mainstream schools do. This I speak from personal experience and mind you, I attended mainstream all the way from 4th to 12th grade and I emigrated from a different country prior to that. Heck, English is not even my first language and I had to learn by reading Calvin and Hobbes.
Deaf school’s reason on not assigning an exit examination is just another reason to hide how poorly that large number of deaf students’ English and arithmetic skills are. Also, the SAT/ACT is not even enforced in deaf schools and Gallaudet does not even require students to take those exams prior to their enrollments. Your argument on that an exam is required for deaf/hoh students to take if they wan to enroll in MAINSTREAM PUBLIC school is not only discrimination and segregation in nature but also undermines the potential many talented deaf/hoh students. What if they can not pass the hypothetical exam you came up with? Your only solution left is to throw them back to the schools for deaf and dumb.. I hope that is not the point you are trying to conclude.

Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.

kalboy · 10-21-2003, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

Kalboy, I think you are speaking thru your (where the sun does not shine).

THIS particular argument can go on until the end of time and it still will not be solved.

Most of us here speak from strong EXPERIENCE, what about you?

I worked in a residential school for 25 years and we had quite a few foster children (who went home on weekends to a foster home). They got picked on, but most of them survived.

We cannot have a "one size fits all" education for handicapped children. It is bad enough having to have it for hearing children. But it is the best we have to offer and most of us survive despite all the hardships.

My son is the Financial Manager of a large school district. He tells me that there are $75,000.00 a year children. And most of these children will never be able to live in a normal world, despite their expensive "education".

Please save your puerile attitude at another time, it is no need to call names here. We are having an discussion, you are welcome to join, but please leave your self-indulgencing and egotist attitude outside.

The Heretic · 10-21-2003, 02:03 AM

Even though Kalboy has already spoken for himself, I felt compelled to add a few comments of my own:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

Kalboy, I think you are speaking thru your (where the sun does not shine).

This is totally unnecessary. Take the sophomoric poisoning the well maneuvers elsewhere, for these 3rd rate insults will not lead to a productive conversation or discussion. If you have made up your mind on this issue, then why bother at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

THIS particular argument can go on until the end of time and it still will not be solved.

False. Just because you are tired of the topic does not mean nobody else can try and solve it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

Most of us here speak from strong EXPERIENCE, what about you?

You are far too presumptuous for your own good. Ask Kalboy before making an ass out of yourself with these aSSumptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

I worked in a residential school for 25 years and we had quite a few foster children (who went home on weekends to a foster home). They got picked on, but most of them survived.

Eh. Everyone gets picked on - even the popular kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

We cannot have a "one size fits all" education for handicapped children.

Then what exactly are you advocating? If you do not believe there is a possible 'one size fits all' model of education for HC children, then what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lantana

It is bad enough having to have it for hearing children. But it is the best we have to offer and most of us survive despite all the hardships.

This is an argument from tradition. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" reasoning is weak at best, and presumes the current model needs no improvement, and blindly ignores alternatives or potential reforms. If you are satisfied with the current state of education, then you need to explain why it is good enough, not just say so.

~Heretic~

The Heretic · 10-21-2003, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Thanks Lantana, It just seems like too many people hold mainstreaming up as the ulimate wonderful glorious goal. You're right a "one size does not fit all" mentality doesn't work with deaf/hoh students. That is why mainstreaming isn't all it's cracked up to be....mainstreaming has a "one size fits all mentality"(eg all kids in sped are just stupid suburban slackers who shopped around for a designer LD dx) ...even without the deafness I would still not have fit in very well in the mainstream b/c I am brainy and eccentric. I'm not saying the deaf schools are heaven...I'm just pointing out the bad side of mainstreaming.

Isn't it hypocritical to criticize mainstreaming as an impossible attempt to squeeze every deaf/hh person into one prefigured mold, while leaving the alternative of residental education unmentioned, unscathed?

It works both ways, DeafDyke, cuz that's a double edged sword. If you are going to criticize mainstreaming for its monolithic function, then what makes you think the residental schools are free from that criticism?

I'd be more impressed if you also pointed out the bad side of residental schools yourself too, so you would appear more impartial and balanced, and maybe even persuasive.

By the way, being brainy and eccentric is a social stigma, and has nothing to do with the quality of education or whether it meets the needs of the handicapped. Hence, this fat non-sequitur of yours has no place here.

deafdyke · 10-21-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Your argument on that an exam is required for deaf/hoh students to take if they wan to enroll in MAINSTREAM PUBLIC school is not only discrimination and segregation in nature but also undermines the potential many talented deaf/hoh students. What if they can not pass the hypothetical exam you came up with? Your only solution left is to throw them back to the schools for deaf and dumb.. I hope that is not the point you are trying to conclude.

Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.

Kalboy, you are missing my point.....I think an exam should be required just to ensure that the deaf/hoh student has a good solid base in order to work from.
Most of the kids who go to deaf schools, have been prevoiusly mainstreamed where they didn't get the specialized teaching that they needed in order to get a really good education. Most deaf/hoh students are mainstreamed nowadays. Very few spend their entire scholastic career at a deaf school!
I have a lot more to say but I have to get something to eat and go to class.

kalboy · 10-21-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Kalboy, you are missing my point.....I think an exam should be required just to ensure that the deaf/hoh student has a good solid base in order to work from.
Most of the kids who go to deaf schools, have been prevoiusly mainstreamed where they didn't get the specialized teaching that they needed in order to get a really good education. Most deaf/hoh students are mainstreamed nowadays. Very few spend their entire scholastic career at a deaf school!
I have a lot more to say but I have to get something to eat and go to class.

I would like to hear your perspective on the lack of standardized exams such as SAT/ACT in deaf school.

deafdyke · 10-21-2003, 02:22 PM

The Heretic, You obvoiusly have not read all of my posts here. I think mainstreaming is awesome...I just don't like the automatic assumption that all deaf students should automaticly attend their neighborhood school, starting in preschool. I do not believe that the gross majority of mainstream schools have the resources to provide appropreate early intervention for most deaf/hoh students. Some do...I do support regional educational co-opts with qualified TODs at mainstream schools.

Quote:

Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.

If you have never gone to deaf school, then how do you know that deaf school is too easy?
I'm not surprised, that you never met an alumni of a deaf school at your college, since it's top tier. Most students who go to top-tier schools, have strong parental involvement. Talk to some of the teachers at the deaf school. They'll tell you that most of the parents there are really uninvolved with their child's education. (actually this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard)
I think deaf schools should require SATs, and deaf colleges (like Gally and NTID) should require them for admission. On the other hand...there are very selective colleges which don't require SATS. (Mt. Holyoke I think)

The Heretic · 10-21-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

The Heretic, You obvoiusly have not read all of my posts here. I think mainstreaming is awesome...I just don't like the automatic assumption that all deaf students should automaticly attend their neighborhood school, starting in preschool. I do not believe that the gross majority of mainstream schools have the resources to provide appropreate early intervention for most deaf/hoh students. Some do...I do support regional educational co-opts with qualified TODs at mainstream schools.

I'm with you. Apologies on not reading your other posts, but i was reacting more towards what seemed to be a ganging-up on Kalboy. Since i smelled a potential witch hunt in the offing, I took you at face value and addressed what you wrote in that post alone.

I'm against the one-size-fits all approach too, because public education of any type is geared towards the lowest common denominator, the mediocre. That also applies for any residental education as well - their standards have to accomodate the aptitute level of the students, and that seems to guarantee substandard, worse than mediocre results. A self-fulfilling prophechy.

Do you have any criticism to offer on the part of residental education, or do you think that it is good enough and needs no reform?

deafdyke · 10-21-2003, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Do you have any criticism to offer on the part of residental education, or do you think that it is good enough and needs no reform?

It definitly needs reform. There are good schools (TLC, MSSD, the California Schools for the Deaf) but there are also really bad schools, that are basicly just babysitting services. Then again, you can say the same for a lot of hearing schools. There are decent hearing schools, and there are awful hearing schools.
(inner city high schools anyone?) Not all res schools are horrible/low quality.
I think maybe a good idea would be to funnel more money into res education.
Yes, I know res education is already quite expensive and some people insist that it sucks away too much money already, but on the other hand, I think about the only reason why it's expensive is b/c of things like dorms and having to buy specialized equipment in bulk. Maybe a way to offset the high costs of residental schools, would be to offer a sleepaway summer camp for deaf/hoh and Deaf hearing kids.
Another might be to open audilogy services to the community at large.
Anyway, I think part of the reason why education is so crappy at res schools is b/c teachers are so bad. Most TODs are attracted to the private oral schools....
I have a lot more to say but I'm being kicked off the computer!

deafdyke · 10-22-2003, 02:12 AM

OK....I'm back! To finish my post: Raise teacher saleries so that really talented and qualified TODs will be attracted to jobs at the schools.....put into place a strong rigerous curriculum that is as good as which is found at a hearing school, encourage parental involvement...report to CPS ANY parent who is not involved with their child's education (far far far too many hearing parents don't sign with their deaf/hoh kid(s). encourage the local Deaf community to be involved in the deaf school.... Also increase vocational ed. Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.

peacetrain · 10-22-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

OK....I'm back! To finish my post: Raise teacher saleries so that really talented and qualified TODs will be attracted to jobs at the schools.....put into place a strong rigerous curriculum that is as good as which is found at a hearing school, encourage parental involvement...report to CPS ANY parent who is not involved with their child's education (far far far too many hearing parents don't sign with their deaf/hoh kid(s). encourage the local Deaf community to be involved in the deaf school.... Also increase vocational ed. Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.

You're too funny! What will you do with all the parents whose kids are in oral programs? Do a mass list call to protective services?

I agree w/you for the most part, you're acknowledging that the problem is the quality of services across the continuum, not any one approach.

peacetrain · 10-22-2003, 08:27 AM

[ Most students who go to top-tier schools, have strong parental involvement. Talk to some of the teachers at the deaf school. They'll tell you that most of the parents there are really uninvolved with their child's education. (actually this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard)
I think deaf schools should require SATs, and deaf colleges (like Gally and NTID) should require them for admission. On the other hand...there are very selective colleges which don't require SATS. (Mt. Holyoke I think)[/quote]

<this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard>

What you've <heard> is wrong
I agree w/you that parental involvement makes all the difference in a child meeting their potential. Your assumption that most parents are uninvolved is incorrect. While there are many parents who are uninvolved, there are many of us who are the ones out there forcing changes in the educational system. Parents of deaf students are some of the MOST involved parents I've ever met. Think about it, we have to learn a whole new language, and there's a lot of us out there doing it. Not just going to school w/nothing else to do in our lives...We're out there keeping our family going, taking on all the responsibilities of any parent and going back to school at the same time. And God knows, learning all the technology information, networking, learning special ed law better than the special ed directors, fighting for qualified interpreters, qualified teachers, maintaining our cool in the face of being attacked or condescended by people who really don't know what they're talking about, consoling our children when they're feeling excluded or treated rudely. And knowing our children, their personality, their best learning style... I'm not picking on you, you just happened to be number 5,678,900 I've heard say this, and well, this time I responded...

kalboy · 10-22-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.

I disagree. The requirement of a good college education in a contented existence is must. Your solution is backward thinking; skilled trades are no longer in demand as it were in the pre-war period. A few demanding profession I can think of are nursing, construction, and automobile mechanics, but their reward are nowhere up to par as some of the white collar jobs that require eal college education. Therefore, I think deaf schools are obligated to encourage deaf students to go to college; the least they can do is to make them realize the importance of a college education.

BrownEyedGirl · 10-22-2003, 02:32 PM

I feel that you should emphasize to the child how important education is and then let the child decide themselves whether they want deaf residential school or mainstreamed. From personal experience, I am mainstreamed, finishing up my SENIOR YEAR! (yay lol) My sister who is also deaf just started freshman year at a residential school.

deafdyke · 10-22-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

While there are many parents who are uninvolved, there are many of us who are the ones out there forcing changes in the educational system. Parents of deaf students are some of the MOST involved parents I've ever met.

I'm not denying that there are involved parents with Deaf kids, but it does seem like they are in the minority. I do know many involved hearing parents of Deaf kids, but at the same time, there are also many hearing parents of Deaf kids who don't even Sign with their kids! (and quite frankly I think a big part of the reason why, is b/c the hearing parents are burnt out from the extremely heavy involvement that the oral-only method demands. Sadly even today, most kids who Sign, are "oral failures" Very few parents CHOOSE to sign

) It seems like most of the really involved parents are the AG Bell stereotype. (that could be b/c most

Quote:

Your solution is backward thinking; skilled trades are no longer in demand as it were in the pre-war period. A few demanding profession I can think of are nursing, construction, and automobile mechanics, but their reward are nowhere up to par as some of the white collar jobs that require eal college education. Therefore, I think deaf schools are obligated to encourage deaf students to go to college;

Kalboy.....I do NOT advocate throwing out the educational part of res school. I just think that there should also be a vocational component for those students who don't want to go to college, to equip them with in-demand marketable skills! Too many kids, even hearing kids who attend mainstream academic schools graduate with absolutly no marketable job skills.

peacetrain · 10-22-2003, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

I'm not denying that there are involved parents with Deaf kids, but it does seem like they are in the minority. I do know many involved hearing parents of Deaf kids, but at the same time, there are also many hearing parents of Deaf kids who don't even Sign with their kids! (and quite frankly I think a big part of the reason why, is b/c the hearing parents are burnt out from the extremely heavy involvement that the oral-only method demands. Sadly even today, most kids who Sign, are "oral failures" Very few parents CHOOSE to sign

) It seems like most of the really involved parents are the AG Bell stereotype. (that could be b/c most

Kalboy.....I do NOT advocate throwing out the educational part of res school. I just think that there should also be a vocational component for those students who don't want to go to college, to equip them with in-demand marketable skills! Too many kids, even hearing kids who attend mainstream academic schools graduate with absolutly no marketable job skills.

Thank you, thank you for acknowledging there are involved parents. I don't know about oral vs. signing parents. I can say that I'm a hearing parent who signs w/my son. I personally agree that all deaf children should learn sign language, but even the d/Deaf adults don't agree on that, so....
My son goes to a school for the deaf as a day student, and there are many involved parents there. So much depends on the quality of the program. My son was in a regional deaf ed program prior to the deaf school, and the quality of the program was poor. You have to look at all factors. You've made good points.

Just one more point, then I'll shut up. What's wrong w/deaf students learning trades? I'm in total agreement w/you. Not all students are college material. Does that make them less of a person? I hate that way of thinking. Of course the point is that we should be educating students to reach their own potential, no argument there. But once we've done our job, we need to not judge everyone by how high their academic learning has taken them. All people matter, and all jobs are important.

deafdyke · 10-22-2003, 11:31 PM

That is great that your son's doing so well and that you think that the education at the deaf school is so good! Where does he go to school? That's also awesome that there are many hearing parents at your son's school who have taken the effort to learn Sign!!!

Before getting into the whole deaf culture thing, I thought that all hearing parents of Deaf kids learned ASL. It was a HUGE shock to me to find out that only a very small percentage of hearing parents are fluent in ASL (two of the Deaf girls I know in my area , their parents chose ASL and their families are fluent in it!) I am extremely proud to announce that three of my friends have chosen to Sign with their hard of hearing kids!

Things may be changing!

Quote:

I personally agree that all deaf children should learn sign language, but even the d/Deaf adults don't agree on that, so....

Well, I do know o

10-20-2003, 09:51 PM	#35 (permalink)
Lantana Older and Wiser Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon Coast/Washington Coast/Hawaii Posts: 385	Mainstreaming, etc. Kalboy, I think you are speaking thru your (where the sun does not shine). THIS particular argument can go on until the end of time and it still will not be solved. Most of us here speak from strong EXPERIENCE, what about you? I worked in a residential school for 25 years and we had quite a few foster children (who went home on weekends to a foster home). They got picked on, but most of them survived. We cannot have a "one size fits all" education for handicapped children. It is bad enough having to have it for hearing children. But it is the best we have to offer and most of us survive despite all the hardships. My son is the Financial Manager of a large school district. He tells me that there are $75,000.00 a year children. And most of these children will never be able to live in a normal world, despite their expensive "education". __________________ "The best things in life are not things."

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10-20-2003, 10:30 PM	#36 (permalink)
deafdyke So NOT a Princess! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 6,685	Thanks Lantana, It just seems like too many people hold mainstreaming up as the ulimate wonderful glorious goal. You're right a "one size does not fit all" mentality doesn't work with deaf/hoh students. That is why mainstreaming isn't all it's cracked up to be....mainstreaming has a "one size fits all mentality"(eg all kids in sped are just stupid suburban slackers who shopped around for a designer LD dx) ...even without the deafness I would still not have fit in very well in the mainstream b/c I am brainy and eccentric. I'm not saying the deaf schools are heaven...I'm just pointing out the bad side of mainstreaming.

10-21-2003, 01:14 AM	#37 (permalink)
kalboy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, CA Posts: 243	[quote=deafdyke] We now have exams that students must take in order to graduate from school. Why not have entrance exams like they do in college? (for everyone) QUOTE] You hit another critical point here. Deaf schools do not require students to take an exit examination once they graduate from high school whereas mainstream schools do. This I speak from personal experience and mind you, I attended mainstream all the way from 4th to 12th grade and I emigrated from a different country prior to that. Heck, English is not even my first language and I had to learn by reading Calvin and Hobbes. Deaf school’s reason on not assigning an exit examination is just another reason to hide how poorly that large number of deaf students’ English and arithmetic skills are. Also, the SAT/ACT is not even enforced in deaf schools and Gallaudet does not even require students to take those exams prior to their enrollments. Your argument on that an exam is required for deaf/hoh students to take if they wan to enroll in MAINSTREAM PUBLIC school is not only discrimination and segregation in nature but also undermines the potential many talented deaf/hoh students. What if they can not pass the hypothetical exam you came up with? Your only solution left is to throw them back to the schools for deaf and dumb.. I hope that is not the point you are trying to conclude. Also speaking from personal experience, I have never met a single deaf/hoh student who went to deaf schools in my college (I went to a 4 year, top-tier public university in California). All of the deaf students from my college signs and some are able to speak fairly well, we all agree that the materials taught in deaf school are too easy. Remember, it is your schooling is not suppose to influence your education.

10-22-2003, 02:12 AM	#46 (permalink)
deafdyke So NOT a Princess! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 6,685	OK....I'm back! To finish my post: Raise teacher saleries so that really talented and qualified TODs will be attracted to jobs at the schools.....put into place a strong rigerous curriculum that is as good as which is found at a hearing school, encourage parental involvement...report to CPS ANY parent who is not involved with their child's education (far far far too many hearing parents don't sign with their deaf/hoh kid(s). encourage the local Deaf community to be involved in the deaf school.... Also increase vocational ed. Train deaf/hoh students with useful, high skill trades that are in demand. Not all deaf/hoh kids want to go to college. (and although I love college, I do sometimes feel like an educated idoit with no real marketable skills beyond being brainy) I don't think that a res school should be the only option, but it should be part of a continum of educational placements.

10-22-2003, 08:27 AM	#48 (permalink)
peacetrain Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 50	[ Most students who go to top-tier schools, have strong parental involvement. Talk to some of the teachers at the deaf school. They'll tell you that most of the parents there are really uninvolved with their child's education. (actually this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard) I think deaf schools should require SATs, and deaf colleges (like Gally and NTID) should require them for admission. On the other hand...there are very selective colleges which don't require SATS. (Mt. Holyoke I think)[/quote] <this is true across the board for most kids with IEPs from what I've heard> What you've <heard> is wrong I agree w/you that parental involvement makes all the difference in a child meeting their potential. Your assumption that most parents are uninvolved is incorrect. While there are many parents who are uninvolved, there are many of us who are the ones out there forcing changes in the educational system. Parents of deaf students are some of the MOST involved parents I've ever met. Think about it, we have to learn a whole new language, and there's a lot of us out there doing it. Not just going to school w/nothing else to do in our lives...We're out there keeping our family going, taking on all the responsibilities of any parent and going back to school at the same time. And God knows, learning all the technology information, networking, learning special ed law better than the special ed directors, fighting for qualified interpreters, qualified teachers, maintaining our cool in the face of being attacked or condescended by people who really don't know what they're talking about, consoling our children when they're feeling excluded or treated rudely. And knowing our children, their personality, their best learning style... I'm not picking on you, you just happened to be number 5,678,900 I've heard say this, and well, this time I responded...

10-22-2003, 02:32 PM	#50 (permalink)
BrownEyedGirl Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10	I feel that you should emphasize to the child how important education is and then let the child decide themselves whether they want deaf residential school or mainstreamed. From personal experience, I am mainstreamed, finishing up my SENIOR YEAR! (yay lol) My sister who is also deaf just started freshman year at a residential school.