The hearing and cochlear implant debate! Share your opinion! - Page 6

deafdyke · 05-28-2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

That just goes to show that not all audis are aggressively pushing CIs. Many of them probably are, but a majority of them are not.

Hear Again, actually we DO agree on this

I don't think most audis aggressively push the CI.......but it does seem like since the implantation criteria was relaxed, the CI has turned into the "digital" hearing aid, that is pushed. Remember in the 90's when audis were pushing digital aids up the wazoo? It's hard to really acuratly say, since there's really nothing you can really cite on this. Especially since some of the implants are done "off label".
It would be really interesting to do some research in this area. ...

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Hear Again, actually we DO agree on this

I don't think most audis aggressively push the CI.......but it does seem like since the implantation criteria was relaxed, the CI has turned into the "digital" hearing aid, that is pushed. Remember in the 90's when audis were pushing digital aids up the wazoo? It's hard to really acuratly say, since there's really nothing you can really cite on this. Especially since some of the implants are done "off label".
It would be really interesting to do some research in this area. ...

There is research written about CIs for people with severe-profound hearing loss, but I don't know if that would be what you'd consider to be a borderline candidate. This has always been my understanding, but I'm really not sure. When I was deemed a CI candidate, I had severe-profound loss (profound left ear; severe-profound right ear), but was told I had "very, very little residual hearing" and was considered an excellent candidate. I wonder if you could find the information you're looking for by doing a Google search for "borderline candidates + cochlear implant" or
"severe-profound + cochlear implant?"

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

CIs do eliminate alot of the barriers of being HoH. If someone can go from having moderately-severe to profound, severe-profound or profound hearing loss to mild-moderate hearing loss, I would consider that to be one way barries are removed from being HoH. Instead of a person struggling as much as they did prior to receiving a CI, communication is made so much easier thereby eliminating alot of barriers. CIs don't eliminate all barriers, but they eliminate a majority of them.

The barriers were placed there by the hearing people who refused to sign. It is them that should remove those barriers, not us.

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Yes. I've had 3 hearing aid audis since 1985 and all of them have required me to have hearing tests every 3 months.

What is their reason for doing the test every 3 months?? I got the test every blue moon - like in years. Your hearing was declining and they want to measure that, maybe???

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

What is their reason for doing the test every 3 months?? I got the test every blue moon - like in years. Your hearing was declining and they want to measure that, maybe???

The reason my hearing was tested every 3 months is because I'm totally blind and had progressive hearing loss.

Since I cannot rely on lipreading to facilitate communication, my audis wanted to keep a close eye on my hearing so they could quickly address any noticeable change.

I had frequent ear infections as well, so they wanted to check my ears regularly and make sure that any decrease in hearing I had (due to ear infections) could be immediately treated with antibiotics.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

The barriers were placed there by the hearing people who refused to sign. It is them that should remove those barriers, not us.

I think it's the responsibility of hearing and Deaf people alike to remove barriers. It is unfair for the Deaf to expect hearing people (meaning society as a whole -- not just friends and family) to accommodate them by learning ASL. That's unrealistic and will never happen.

At the same time, it is equally important for hearing people to do what is requested by a Deaf person to help facilitate communication (i.e. face them when communicating, use paper and pen, do not cover their mouths when talking, provide terps when requested, etc.)

In order to ensure that communication is as effective as can be, it is the responsibility of both parties (Deaf and hearing) to meet each other halfway.

JMO.

rockdrummer · 05-28-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

I think it's the responsibility of hearing and Deaf people alike to remove barriers. It is unfair for the Deaf to expect hearing people (meaning society as a whole -- not just friends and family) to accommodate them by learning ASL. That's unrealistic and will never happen.

At the same time, it is equally important for hearing people to do what is requested by a Deaf person to help facilitate communication (i.e. face them when communicating, use paper and pen, do not cover their mouths when talking, provide terps when requested, etc.)

In order to ensure that communication is as effective as can be, it is the responsibility of both parties (Deaf and hearing) to meet each other halfway.

JMO.

I totally agree with this and I have said before that it is unrealistic for the deaf popluation to expect the hearing popluation to learn sign language. This is a two way street and from my standpoint, education and awareness about deafness will go a long way. Also I have seen within the past 10 years a focus on deaf education regarding new studies etc, which will hopefully result in an equitable educational environment for deaf kids. Regarding the CI debate, that will rage on for a long time with positions from the far right to the far left. I have recently became aware that some actually believe CI's are being forced on deaf people.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I totally agree with this and I have said before that it is unrealistic for the deaf popluation to expect the hearing popluation to learn sign language. This is a two way street and from my standpoint, education and awareness about deafness will go a long way. Also I have seen within the past 10 years a focus on deaf education regarding new studies etc, which will hopefully result in an equitable educational environment for deaf kids. Regarding the CI debate, that will rage on for a long time with positions from the far right to the far left. I have recently became aware that some actually believe CI's are being forced on deaf people.

rockdrummer. I'm glad someone agrees with me.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 10:53 AM

Since I'm deaf and blind, I expect sighted people to put all business signs in Braille and to have all restaurant menus in accessible format.

I also expect all of my grocery items labeled in Braille so I can read the ingredient content and know what I'm taking out of the cupboard or refrigerator.

If that's not possible, please give me my own Anne Sullivan who can help me run errands since I can't drive and the cost of taking public transportation is expensive. <sarcastic mode off>

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

I think it's the responsibility of hearing and Deaf people alike to remove barriers. It is unfair for the Deaf to expect hearing people (meaning society as a whole -- not just friends and family) to accommodate them by learning ASL. That's unrealistic and will never happen.

At the same time, it is equally important for hearing people to do what is requested by a Deaf person to help facilitate communication (i.e. face them when communicating, use paper and pen, do not cover their mouths when talking, provide terps when requested, etc.)

In order to ensure that communication is as effective as can be, it is the responsibility of both parties (Deaf and hearing) to meet each other halfway.

JMO.

It is unfair for the hearing people to expect Deaf people to accommodate them by learing to speak.. That is unrealistic -especially in the pre-hearing-aid era. That is totally unrealistic - keep in mind that there are some deaf people that CI won't help.

I have meet them halfway by learning to speak but they (especially my own family) don't learn to sign. What two way street? Everyday I see it is one way street - hearing's way!

shel90 · 05-28-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

It is unfair for the hearing people to expect Deaf people to accommodate them by learing to speak.. That is unrealistic -especially in the pre-hearing-aid era. That is totally unrealistic - keep in mind that there are some deaf people that CI won't help.

I have meet them halfway by learning to speak but they (especially my own family) don't learn to sign. What two way street? Everyday I see it is one way street - hearing's way!

I feel the same. I have always had to make the effort to meet hearing people's communication needs which is much mich harder for me to do than it is for them to learn sign language. Tell me, where is the two way street?

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I totally agree with this and I have said before that it is unrealistic for the deaf popluation to expect the hearing popluation to learn sign language. This is a two way street and from my standpoint, education and awareness about deafness will go a long way. Also I have seen within the past 10 years a focus on deaf education regarding new studies etc, which will hopefully result in an equitable educational environment for deaf kids. Regarding the CI debate, that will rage on for a long time with positions from the far right to the far left. I have recently became aware that some actually believe CI's are being forced on deaf people.

The first half - look at my post to Hear Again. As long as the hearing people refuse to put ASL in Deaf schools, there won't be equitable education enviroment. I don't like the mainstream schools because the deaf class tends to be so small and the interpreters are stretched thin.

Look at the pattern. They expected hearing aids to help us hear and now CI came along, they are expecting CI to help us to hear better. I am not surprised that the deaf people believe that CI are being forced on deaf people. The hearing people expect too much from hearing aids in the past and now CIs. They expect us to hear and understand everything in the classroom without the use of ASL. I want to see the deaf kids to have stress-free education along with their deaf peers. I won't be surprised if some state pass the law that all deaf babies are to be fitted with CI if CI will help them. It is just they expected too much from CIs. They still haven't heard us about our feelings and opinions on Deaf Education. They are the ones that need CI in order to listen to us!

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Since I'm deaf and blind, I expect sighted people to put all business signs in Braille and to have all restaurant menus in accessible format.

I also expect all of my grocery items labeled in Braille so I can read the ingredient content and know what I'm taking out of the cupboard or refrigerator.

If that's not possible, please give me my own Anne Sullivan who can help me run errands since I can't drive and the cost of taking public transportation is expensive. <sarcastic mode off>

I have seen Braille on some of the elevators and some of restaurant menus. I hope all will put Braille up everywhere so the blind people can be more independent. Public transportation might be expensive to one on limited income but owing a car is more expensive to one on limited income. Car upkeeping/insurance/gas/parking costs can pile up so much. Isn't there a barcode reader that tell you what grocery items are?? I thought I saw one online.

shel90 · 05-28-2009, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

The first half - look at my post to Hear Again. As long as the hearing people refuse to put ASL in Deaf schools, there won't be equitable education enviroment. I don't like the mainstream schools because the deaf class tends to be so small and the interpreters are stretched thin.

Look at the pattern. They expected hearing aids to help us hear and now CI came along, they are expecting CI to help us to hear better. I am not surprised that the deaf people believe that CI are being forced on deaf people. The hearing people expect too much from hearing aids in the past and now CIs. They expect us to hear and understand everything in the classroom without the use of ASL. I want to see the deaf kids to have stress-free education along with their deaf peers. I won't be surprised if some state pass the law that all deaf babies are to be fitted with CI if CI will help them. It is just they expected too much from CIs. They still haven't heard us about our feelings and opinions on Deaf Education. They are the ones that need CI in order to listen to us!

Why should access to education, language and etc be made much more difficult than necessary just because it is the "hearing" way?

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

I have seen Braille on some of the elevators and some of restaurant menus. I hope all will put Braille up everywhere so the blind people can be more independent. Public transportation might be expensive to one on limited income but owing a car is more expensive to one on limited income. Car upkeeping/insurance/gas/parking costs can pile up so much. Isn't there a barcode reader that tell you what grocery items are?? I thought I saw one online.

Many blind people who rely on public transportation are on fixed incomes (like SS) so that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing the cost of public transportation for them vs. someone who can drive and is employed.

Sighted people don't need to drive. If truth be told, I think sighted people depend on their vehicles far too much. They've become so dependent upon them that they can't even walk a block to the store to pick up a gallon of milk.

Barcode readers do not tell a blind person what a grocery item is on their own. This information must be recorded by someone who can voice it into a recording device. With that being the case, blind people do not have access to knowing what is on the store shelves. What blind people need are Braille labels with price tags located near every item so that we can shop independently. I don't like having to share my grocery list with a clerk especially when I need to buy certain items that are private in nature.

I don't know what it's like to be Deaf just as you don't understand what it's like to be blind.

As the saying goes, "You can't know what another person experiences until you've walked a mile in their shoes."

dreama · 05-28-2009, 06:15 PM

I do shopping online. I usually put braille labels on things if need be but a lot of the time I know what something is by the shape of the packaging.

Braille menues are a rarity but I've found they can also be found on line.

I don't expect everyone to learn BSL for us. That's what Pen and paper is there for, but I do think ALL babies should be taught baby signs automatically. Afterwards deaf should be kept given access to ASL. Either by having the parents themselves learn ASL or hiring someone from the deaf community to help or sending the deaf child to deaf school. There is a way forward.

Curently neither the deaf needs or the blind needs are being met. I wouldn't really want an Ann Sullavan full time. I'm being taught more long cane routes now Jilli has retired. People talk to me using block capital letters on my hand. I'm hoping to get a commununicator guide soon for times when I do need one though.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

I have seen Braille on some of the elevators and some of restaurant menus.

This is primarily limited to large chains like McDonald's and Applebee's.

Aside from that, many of the restaurant menus that are given to blind patrons are sorely out of date and in need of price and item updating.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

I do shopping online.

I'm on a limited income, so I can't afford the price of grocery store items online.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

People talk to me using block capital letters on my hand.

When I used print on palm, I always found it extremely slow and tedious. It was better than nothing, but I preferred tactile sign or the TeleBraille instead.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:23 PM

Keep in mind as well that very few blind people have access to the Internet, so they can't access online information for shopping, restaurant menus, etc.

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Many blind people who rely on public transportation are on fixed incomes (like SS) so that needs to be taken into consideration when comparing the cost of public transportation for them vs. someone who can drive and is employed.

Sighted people don't need to drive. If truth be told, I think sighted people depend on their vehicles far too much. They've become so dependent upon them that they can't even walk a block to the store to pick up a gallon of milk.

Barcode readers do not tell a blind person what a grocery item is on their own. This information must be recorded by someone who can voice it into a recording device. With that being the case, blind people do not have access to knowing what is on the store shelves. What blind people need are Braille labels with price tags located near every item so that we can shop independently. I don't like having to share my grocery list with a clerk especially when I need to buy certain items that are private in nature.

I don't know what it's like to be Deaf just as you don't understand what it's like to be blind.

As the saying goes, "You can't know what another person experiences until you've walked a mile in their shoes."

I agree that sighted people depend so much on their car. That is why Marvin Miller who want to set up a Deaf town with sidewalks and stores close by. It is all because he want people who can't drive due to old age to be independent as much as possible. I like that and I want it to go futher - more blind-friendly features and wheel-chair ramps instead of steps everywhere. Right now it is not feasible.

I am learning about the stuff that the deafblind people go thru. I want to see if there is a way to help them to be more independent for my selfish reason. You see, I have an eye problem and that is why I am learning from you and Dreama.

At least you are getting a degree and hopefully will land a job real soon. Maybe working from home will save you in bus fares. Things will start looking up once you got a job.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

It is unfair for the hearing people to expect Deaf people to accommodate them by learing to speak.. That is unrealistic -especially in the pre-hearing-aid era. That is totally unrealistic - keep in mind that there are some deaf people that CI won't help.

I have meet them halfway by learning to speak but they (especially my own family) don't learn to sign. What two way street? Everyday I see it is one way street - hearing's way!

By a Deaf person meeting a hearing person halfway, I'm not referring to speech. I'm referring to fully explaining what is necessary for effective communication to take place (i.e. use of pen and paper or a laptop, facing a Deaf person so they can read lips, etc.)

A two way street consists of explaining your communication needs as a Deaf person. I've read about some HoH/deaf people who get snippy at hearing people who don't adjust their voices/communication in order to be understood.

If you expect hearing people to understand your needs as a Deaf person, then you also need to understand where a hearing person is coming from when they have no idea how much you can hear, whether you sign, voice and/or lipread or what needs to be done in order to make communication possible.

If you expect the whole world to learn sign, it's never going to happen, so the next best thing you can do is to make communication between you and a hearing person easier by letting them know exactly what you need instead of expecting them to learn an entirely different language they may be incapable of learning.

dreama · 05-28-2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Keep in mind as well that very few blind people have access to the Internet, so they can't access online information for shopping, restaurant menus, etc.

I know. Computers for the blind and deafblind should be considered necessary. If a CI is considered neccessary because it accesses sound why can't a computer be considered neccessary because it accesses information and communication. Yet you can get the NHS to fork out for a CI but not for a computer. This computer system with it's expensive braille display was entirely funded by me.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

I agree that sighted people depend so much on their car. That is why Marvin Miller who want to set up a Deaf town with sidewalks and stores close by. It is all because he want people who can't drive due to old age to be independent as much as possible. I like that and I want it to go futher - more blind-friendly features and wheel-chair ramps instead of steps everywhere. Right now it is not feasible.

I am learning about the stuff that the deafblind people go thru. I want to see if there is a way to help them to be more independent for my selfish reason. You see, I have an eye problem and that is why I am learning from you and Dreama.

At least you are getting a degree and hopefully will land a job real soon. Maybe working from home will save you in bus fares. Things will start looking up once you got a job.

To be quite honest with you, I have no idea what will happen in terms of my education or employment status due to my bipolar disorder. The reason I mention that is because my moods have not been level (i.e. neither manic or depressed which are symptoms of bipolar) until recently. Stress exacerbates bipolar, so I need to be careful to avoid as much of it as possible. The future is very uncertain for me at this point, but I do not plan to give up.

As far as employability is concerned, the blind have a 70% unemployment rate, so getting hired as a blind person is certainly no easy task.

Hear Again · 05-28-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

I know. Computers for the blind and deafblind should be considered necessary. If a CI is considered neccessary because it accesses sound why can't a computer be considered neccessary because it accesses information and communication. Yet you can get the NHS to fork out for a CI but not for a computer. This computer system with it's expensive braille display was entirely funded by me.

I agree and wish more blind people had access to computer technology especially in today's day and age where functioning without it causes a severe hardship.

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreama

I know. Computers for the blind and deafblind should be considered necessary. If a CI is considered neccessary because it accesses sound why can't a computer be considered neccessary because it accesses information and communication. Yet you can get the NHS to fork out for a CI but not for a computer. This computer system with it's expensive braille display was entirely funded by me.

Ouch! How much did that set you back? I have heard that computer with braille display can be very expensive.

dreama · 05-28-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

As far as employability is concerned, the blind have a 70% unemployment rate, so getting hired as a blind person is certainly no easy task.

Hard but not impossible. If you don't get hired it will probably be due to your bi polar, NOT due to your blindness.

I had a job as a masseur at one stage but then I started suffering from mental health problems: I used to cry at my work place and I once went out in my nightclothes. The deafblindness they could handle. The extra mental problems were too much for them so my hours were greatly reduced.

Unfortunately things have happened since then which make massage hard for me. I don't like the idea of recieving too much physical contact. Never mind giving it out. It was hard enough then.

Buffalo · 05-28-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

By a Deaf person meeting a hearing person halfway, I'm not referring to speech. I'm referring to fully explaining what is necessary for effective communication to take place (i.e. use of pen and paper or a laptop, facing a Deaf person so they can read lips, etc.)

A two way street consists of explaining your communication needs as a Deaf person. I've read about some HoH/deaf people who get snippy at hearing people who don't adjust their voices/communication in order to be understood.

If you expect hearing people to understand your needs as a Deaf person, then you also need to understand where a hearing person is coming from when they have no idea how much you can hear, whether you sign, voice and/or lipread or what needs to be done in order to make communication possible.

If you expect the whole world to learn sign, it's never going to happen, so the next best thing you can do is to make communication between you and a hearing person easier by letting them know exactly what you need instead of expecting them to learn an entirely different language they may be incapable of learning.

I don't have much problem with cashiers, etc. It is my own family and relatives that I am having problem with. They see me everyday when I was growing up. It is one way street when it ought to be two way street.
If they expect me to speak then it is fair for me to expect them to sign. The same goes for co-workers. I mean I could be seeing them everyday.

I just wish that they would get over their fear of deaf people and sign language. Sign language (ASL or PSE) can be extremely useful in some sittuations. They can use sign language to their benefits. They ought to make it two-way street but they aren't now.

dreama · 05-28-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

Ouch! How much did that set you back? I have heard that computer with braille display can be very expensive.

Yes it is and the cost doesn't even include training. Some deafblind get these computers and then don't get full benifit out of them because they just get a small amout of training. Not enough to really get them started. I know a deafblind person of normal intelligence who does not know how to access online because of insufficent training.

dreama · 05-28-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

When I used print on palm, I always found it extremely slow and tedious. It was better than nothing, but I preferred tactile sign or the TeleBraille instead.

You are right there. It's my only way right now then so it will just have to do.

I'm learning tactile signing at the moment and it's nice when people know a bit of signing simply so they can use fingerspelling with me.

I don't have a braille note or face to face but it's definately the next item on my list. I'd also want the Global possisioning device.

05-28-2009, 10:53 AM	#159 (permalink)
Hear Again Each day is a gift. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,073 Blog Entries: 6	Since I'm deaf and blind, I expect sighted people to put all business signs in Braille and to have all restaurant menus in accessible format. I also expect all of my grocery items labeled in Braille so I can read the ingredient content and know what I'm taking out of the cupboard or refrigerator. If that's not possible, please give me my own Anne Sullivan who can help me run errands since I can't drive and the cost of taking public transportation is expensive. <sarcastic mode off> __________________ Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with Freedom BTE (Implanted: 12/22/04 \| Activated: 1/18/05) Right ear - Nucleus Freedom (Implanted: 2/1/06 \| Activated: 3/1/06) Deafblind/Postlingual

05-28-2009, 06:15 PM	#166 (permalink)
dreama deafblind vegan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: England Posts: 3,018	I do shopping online. I usually put braille labels on things if need be but a lot of the time I know what something is by the shape of the packaging. Braille menues are a rarity but I've found they can also be found on line. I don't expect everyone to learn BSL for us. That's what Pen and paper is there for, but I do think ALL babies should be taught baby signs automatically. Afterwards deaf should be kept given access to ASL. Either by having the parents themselves learn ASL or hiring someone from the deaf community to help or sending the deaf child to deaf school. There is a way forward. Curently neither the deaf needs or the blind needs are being met. I wouldn't really want an Ann Sullavan full time. I'm being taught more long cane routes now Jilli has retired. People talk to me using block capital letters on my hand. I'm hoping to get a commununicator guide soon for times when I do need one though. __________________ I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. http://www.fightfoca.com/

05-28-2009, 06:23 PM	#170 (permalink)
Hear Again Each day is a gift. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,073 Blog Entries: 6	Keep in mind as well that very few blind people have access to the Internet, so they can't access online information for shopping, restaurant menus, etc. __________________ Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with Freedom BTE (Implanted: 12/22/04 \| Activated: 1/18/05) Right ear - Nucleus Freedom (Implanted: 2/1/06 \| Activated: 3/1/06) Deafblind/Postlingual

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