The hearing and cochlear implant debate! Share your opinion! - Page 11

jillio · 06-03-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

and where did I exactly say in my post that one is better than other? It's entirely based on individual.

bingo! there you go! You just further proved my point! For example - hearing people who enjoy listening to music - the iPod fanatic. He went deaf and then he opted for CI. It's not the same anymore FOR him. Of course - the CI person (the one who had CI since birth) would not say the same thing because he has nothing to compare with.

I'm an extremely visual person and my life revolves around my eyes while the world revolves around ears for others. If I went blind or nearly blind, that will be very very very devastating for me. I would opt for any kind of surgery that will restore my eyesight. At least I would be able to see but it's not the same anymore because I have something to compare with - my real vision vs. eye implant.

I don't get your point. Difference in the way something is enjoyed has nothing to do with the quality of that enjoyment for that particular individual. Your approach is an attitude of loss. It doesn'thave to be an attitude of loss, but simply an attitude of change. Change in experience does not lessen the value or the enjoyment of that experience. Only when you view the change as a loss do you tend to put judgemental value statements into the equation.

Bottesini · 06-03-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I don't get your point. Difference in the way something is enjoyed has nothing to do with the quality of that enjoyment for that particular individual. Your approach is an attitude of loss. It doesn'thave to be an attitude of loss, but simply an attitude of change. Change in experience does not lessen the value or the enjoyment of that experience. Only when you view the change as a loss do you tend to put judgemental value statements into the equation.

Yes it does. That is why Hear Again is much happier with CI since she grew up hearing.

And when Pinky loves visual art, it is normal for her to mourn the loss of her vision. The art experiences will be different if she is blind and she won't enjoy it the same way.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Yes it does. That is why Hear Again is much happier with CI since she grew up hearing.

You do have a point there Bott.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I don't get your point. Difference in the way something is enjoyed has nothing to do with the quality of that enjoyment for that particular individual. Your approach is an attitude of loss. It doesn'thave to be an attitude of loss, but simply an attitude of change. Change in experience does not lessen the value or the enjoyment of that experience. Only when you view the change as a loss do you tend to put judgemental value statements into the equation.

Bottesini · 06-03-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

You do have a point there Bott.

Thanks. I don't think it hurts to acknowledge the feelings people have.

jillio · 06-03-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Yes it does. That is why Hear Again is much happier with CI since she grew up hearing.

And when Pinky loves visual art, it is normal for her to mourn the loss of her vision. The art experiences will be different if she is blind and she won't enjoy it the same way.

Different is not necessarily equal to less. Difference does not have to be related to quality.

And no one is discounting anyone's feelings. I am simply saying that a difference in the way something is enjoyed does not translate automatically to a lesser enjoyment. Different is not good or bad, less or more. Those are judgement statements based on difference, and are under most circumstances, entirely wrong. Quality of enjoyment is a subjective measure. You cannot measure it for another.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Different is not necessarily equal to less. Difference does not have to be related to quality.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Even if I hear with CIs, it does not mean it's any better or worse than the close to normal hearing I used to have. It's just different.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Thanks. I don't think it hurts to acknowledge the feelings people have.

You're welcome.

The point I was trying to help Jiro understand is that doing something different doesn't make it inferior.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You cannot measure it for another.

Just as a sighted person cannot judge the quality of a blind person's life, a blind person cannot do the same of someone who can see.

Furthermore, a deaf person cannot speak about what it is like to be blind just as a blind person cannot do the same to someone who is deaf. Both parties can only speculate.

Daredevel7 · 06-03-2009, 12:03 PM

Wow, people are being REALLY PC here.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Wow, people are being REALLY PC here.

Why do you say that?

jillio · 06-03-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Just as a sighted person cannot judge the quality of a blind person's life, a blind person cannot do the same of someone who can see.

Furthermore, a deaf person cannot speak about what it is like to be blind just as a blind person cannot do the same to someone who is deaf. Both parties can only speculate.

Exactly. It is entirely possible that someone who is artistically gifted enjoyes through the kinesthetic sense, a sculpture much, much more than a sighted person who simply looks at it without any artistic appreciation. It is not dependent on how they enjoy it, but the value they attach to the experience.

Daredevel7 · 06-03-2009, 12:22 PM

Just as an example: Jillio said "I am simply saying that a difference in the way something is enjoyed does not translate automatically to a lesser enjoyment. Different is not good or bad, less or more. Those are judgement statements based on difference, and are under most circumstances, entirely wrong. Quality of enjoyment is a subjective measure. You cannot measure it for another."

This can apply for almost every single thing in life. Poor vs rich, blind vs deaf, book smart vs street smart, PC vs Mac, and so on.

I said that everyone is being really PC here because no one wants to say that "Yes, sometimes people are happier after getting a CI" because it somehow says that if you don't have a CI, you won't be happier or that you are guaranteed to be happier if you get a CI. We all know that those aren't true.

However, the statement stands. Happiness may be subjective, but some people DO feel happiness after getting a CI. And I get the feeling that it happens more often than not. (Uh oh, did I just promote the CI? OMG time for me to be banned.)

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Just as an example: Jillio said "I am simply saying that a difference in the way something is enjoyed does not translate automatically to a lesser enjoyment. Different is not good or bad, less or more. Those are judgement statements based on difference, and are under most circumstances, entirely wrong. Quality of enjoyment is a subjective measure. You cannot measure it for another."

This can apply for almost every single thing in life. Poor vs rich, blind vs deaf, book smart vs street smart, PC vs Mac, and so on.

I said that everyone is being really PC here because no one wants to say that "Yes, sometimes people are happier after getting a CI" because it somehow says that if you don't have a CI, you won't be happier or that you are guaranteed to be happier if you get a CI. We all know that those aren't true.

However, the statement stands. Happiness may be subjective, but some people DO feel happiness after getting a CI. And I get the feeling that it happens more often than not. (Uh oh, did I just promote the CI? OMG time for me to be banned.)

I did not receive CIs to improve the quality of my life. I chose to be implanted in order to increase my own personal safety as a totally deafblind person. That does not equate to the belief that I think my life is inferior as a person who cannot see or hear.

I don't think anyone here is being PC. If anything, a few people have been narrow minded when it comes to their views on how enjoyable a person's life can be despite blindness.

(Note that I am not referring to you Pinky.)

jillio · 06-03-2009, 12:40 PM

Yes, some people experience happiness when they get a CI. Some people experience the same degree of happiness without a CI. The issue being discussed was one of quality and degree. If you ask a person with a CI, "On a 5 point scale, with 1 being little enjoyment and 5 being the greatest enjoyment, how much do you enjoy music?" and they reply a 3; and you ask the same of a hearing person, and they reply a 1, and the same of a deaf person without a CI and they reply a 5, you can easily see that the quality of that enjoyment is not dependent upon the way the music is perceived.

That doesn't have anything to do with being PC.

Jiro · 06-03-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes, some people experience happiness when they get a CI. Some people experience the same degree of happiness without a CI. The issue being discussed was one of quality and degree. If you ask a person with a CI, "On a 5 point scale, with 1 being little enjoyment and 5 being the greatest enjoyment, how much do you enjoy music?" and they reply a 3; and you ask the same of a hearing person, and they reply a 1, and the same of a deaf person without a CI and they reply a 5, you can easily see that the quality of that enjoyment is not dependent upon the way the music is perceived.

uh..... here's a more accurate example -

ask the acoustic expert - "on a 5 point scale, with 1 being little enjoyment and 5 being the greatest enjoyment, how much do you enjoy music?"

He obviously would reply with 10. Later on, he lost his hearing so he opted for CI. then you ask him - "on a 5 point scale,......... " He most likely will answer 2 even though he can hear but it's NOT the same thing as before.

NOW you can easily see that the quality of that enjoyment is DEPENDENT upon the way the music is perceived - to each own......

jillio · 06-03-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

uh..... here's a more accurate example -

ask the acoustic expert - "on a 5 point scale, with 1 being little enjoyment and 5 being the greatest enjoyment, how much do you enjoy music?"

He obviously would reply with 10. Later on, he lost his hearing so he opted for CI. then you ask him - "on a 5 point scale,......... " He most likely will answer 2 even though he can hear but it's NOT the same thing as before.

NOW you can easily see that the quality of that enjoyment is DEPENDENT upon the way the music is perceived - to each own......

Nope. Not an accurrate example at all. You are comparing the subjective value of a single individual at different points in time, not a difference in the way the stimuli is perceived between individuals.

Daredevel7 · 06-03-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope. Not an accurrate example at all. You are comparing the subjective value of a single individual at different points in time, not a difference in the way the stimuli is perceived between individuals.

Doesn't the "different points in time" apply for getting a CI? You are talking about "I am happier getting a CI, therefore another person will also be happier getting a CI." I am talking about whether CI can make a difference in ONE person's quality of life. Different ways of getting information//stimuli is experienced by ONE person.

jillio · 06-03-2009, 01:13 PM

[QUOTE=Daredevel7;1342650]Doesn't the "different points in time" apply for getting a CI? You are talking about "I am happier getting a CI, therefore another person will also be happier getting a CI." I am talking about whether CI can make a difference in ONE person's quality of life. Different ways of getting information//stimuli is experienced by ONE person.[/QUTE]

It would apply to that one person only, and whether or not they define different for them as less than. That is exactly what I am saying. You cannot say that just because another perceives an object of art through touch, while you perceive it through sight, that their enjoyment of that object is less than yours based simply on sense differences.

Jiro · 06-03-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Thank you. Now I understand why you feel blindness is more limiting than deafness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Just as a sighted person cannot judge the quality of a blind person's life, a blind person cannot do the same of someone who can see.

Furthermore, a deaf person cannot speak about what it is like to be blind just as a blind person cannot do the same to someone who is deaf. Both parties can only speculate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

I did not receive CIs to improve the quality of my life. I chose to be implanted in order to increase my own personal safety as a totally deafblind person. That does not equate to the belief that I think my life is inferior as a person who cannot see or hear.

I don't think anyone here is being PC. If anything, a few people have been narrow minded when it comes to their views on how enjoyable a person's life can be despite blindness.

(Note that I am not referring to you Pinky.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

You're welcome.

The point I was trying to help Jiro understand is that doing something different doesn't make it inferior.

sigh..... again - you failed to see the simple point. Why are you pushing some "blind power" agenda on me? Why do you continue to assume that I said being ----- is better than -----???? I've REPEATEDLY asked you to point out in my post where I said such thing. PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

I am a sighted person. I have something to compare with if I go blind. You do not therefore you do not intimately understand the aspect of being a sighted person. That's why you thought it's not a big deal if Pinky would go blind. Just by simply labeling the color to beads and remembering what color looks like IS NOT THE SAME THING as seeing the shape and color of beads. You enjoy arts as a blind person while Pinky enjoys arts as sighted person. To lose eyesight, it would be devastating for Pinky and for me as well. Of course I can cope with it but it won't be the same thing anymore as I won't be experiencing it the same way that I'm used to.

Pinky and I are sighted people. We both are visual-based people. We would be devastated if we lose our eye sights. Read Pinky's comment in post #276 - "I don't want to lose my sight either." For deafies - we are dependent on our eyes and blind people are dependent on their ears.

Again - this is not about some Deaf vs. Blind bashing on which one is better to have. I have no idea why you turned it into that way when I have not said such thing in my posts. This is about individual's experience that is being affected & changed by a loss of sight/hearing/etc. Not superiority or inferiority.

Daredevel7 · 06-03-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It would apply to that one person only, and whether or not they define different for them as less than. That is exactly what I am saying. You cannot say that just because another perceives an object of art through touch, while you perceive it through sight, that their enjoyment of that object is less than yours based simply on sense differences.

Again, you are comparing two people. I'm comparing two experiences by the same person.

jillio · 06-03-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daredevel7

Again, you are comparing two people. I'm comparing two experiences by the same person.

And two experiences by the same person are applicable only to that person. They cannot generalize.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

sigh..... again - you failed to see the simple point. Why are you pushing some "blind power" agenda on me? Why do you continue to assume that I said being ----- is better than -----???? I've REPEATEDLY asked you to point out in my post where I said such thing. PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

I am a sighted person. I have something to compare with if I go blind. You do not therefore you do not intimately understand the aspect of being a sighted person. That's why you thought it's not a big deal if Pinky would go blind. Just by simply labeling the color to beads and remembering what color looks like IS NOT THE SAME THING as seeing the shape and color of beads. You enjoy arts as a blind person while Pinky enjoys arts as sighted person. To lose eyesight, it would be devastating for Pinky and for me as well. Of course I can cope with it but it won't be the same thing anymore as I won't be experiencing it the same way that I'm used to.

Pinky and I are sighted people. We both are visual-based people. We would be devastated if we lose our eye sights. Read Pinky's comment in post #276 - "I don't want to lose my sight either." For deafies - we are dependent on our eyes and blind people are dependent on their ears.

Again - this is not about some Deaf vs. Blind bashing on which one is better to have. I have no idea why you turned it into that way when I have not said such thing in my posts. This is about individual's experience that is being affected & changed by a loss of sight/hearing/etc. Not superiority or inferiority.

Jiro, why don't you go over to the stem cell thread and point out exactly where I said my CIs improved my quality of life?

If you expect a direct quote from me, I expect the same in return.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 02:01 PM

Jiro,

Please do not assume what I know or do not know. I probably understand more about being sighted than you do given the fact that I've dealt with sighted people for the past 38 years.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 02:02 PM

Jiro,

I am a totally blind person. My experiences of hearing and touch are no less significant than your ability to see.

Jiro · 06-03-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

Jiro, why don't you go over to the stem cell thread and point out exactly where I said my CIs improved my quality of life?

If you expect a direct quote from me, I expect the same in return.

wow talk about double standard! Guess what? If you expect an answer from me, I expect the same in return.

Hear Again · 06-03-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

wow talk about double standard! Guess what? If you expect an answer from me, I expect the same in return.

Did I hear an echo? Stop parroting me. If you want to parrot someone, dig out that talking parrot in your closet.

dreama · 06-03-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hear Again

That's the point I'm trying to make. Even if I hear with CIs, it does not mean it's any better or worse than the close to normal hearing I used to have. It's just different.

Since you never had normal vision this is probably why your CI was so successful. You got back what you were used to have. Plus being totally blind means your brain had more free space to devote to hearing with CI.

dreama · 06-03-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Yes it does. That is why Hear Again is much happier with CI since she grew up hearing.

And when Pinky loves visual art, it is normal for her to mourn the loss of her vision. The art experiences will be different if she is blind and she won't enjoy it the same way.

Hear again grew up HOH. but I do get your point.

YOU CAN adapt to differances but you have to put energy into it I think. I won't let my limitations bother me. Which at times takes concious willpower.

dreama · 06-03-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I'm an extremely visual person and my life revolves around my eyes while the world revolves around ears for others. If I went blind or nearly blind, that will be very very very devastating for me. I would opt for any kind of surgery that will restore my eyesight.

You would at first, but then you would adapt over time. People useually do eventually.

I was born with almost normal sight. The only thing my sight lact was depth but apart from that I was fully sighted.

I can't say going blind was a bed of roses but I adapted to it eventually. In fact I adapt to it better then my dad I think. He says he wishes I could see the pottery pieces I make now. So I have to tell him:
But I can see them. I see them with my fingers.

06-03-2009, 02:01 PM	#324 (permalink)
Hear Again Each day is a gift. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,073 Blog Entries: 6	Jiro, Please do not assume what I know or do not know. I probably understand more about being sighted than you do given the fact that I've dealt with sighted people for the past 38 years. __________________ Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with Freedom BTE (Implanted: 12/22/04 \| Activated: 1/18/05) Right ear - Nucleus Freedom (Implanted: 2/1/06 \| Activated: 3/1/06) Deafblind/Postlingual

06-03-2009, 02:02 PM	#325 (permalink)
Hear Again Each day is a gift. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 20,073 Blog Entries: 6	Jiro, I am a totally blind person. My experiences of hearing and touch are no less significant than your ability to see. __________________ Left ear - Nucleus 24 Contour Advance with Freedom BTE (Implanted: 12/22/04 \| Activated: 1/18/05) Right ear - Nucleus Freedom (Implanted: 2/1/06 \| Activated: 3/1/06) Deafblind/Postlingual

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06-03-2009, 12:03 PM	#310 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 1,937	Wow, people are being REALLY PC here.

06-03-2009, 12:22 PM	#313 (permalink)
Daredevel7 Adrenaline Junky Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 1,937	Just as an example: Jillio said "I am simply saying that a difference in the way something is enjoyed does not translate automatically to a lesser enjoyment. Different is not good or bad, less or more. Those are judgement statements based on difference, and are under most circumstances, entirely wrong. Quality of enjoyment is a subjective measure. You cannot measure it for another." This can apply for almost every single thing in life. Poor vs rich, blind vs deaf, book smart vs street smart, PC vs Mac, and so on. I said that everyone is being really PC here because no one wants to say that "Yes, sometimes people are happier after getting a CI" because it somehow says that if you don't have a CI, you won't be happier or that you are guaranteed to be happier if you get a CI. We all know that those aren't true. However, the statement stands. Happiness may be subjective, but some people DO feel happiness after getting a CI. And I get the feeling that it happens more often than not. (Uh oh, did I just promote the CI? OMG time for me to be banned.)

06-03-2009, 12:40 PM	#315 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 32,396	Yes, some people experience happiness when they get a CI. Some people experience the same degree of happiness without a CI. The issue being discussed was one of quality and degree. If you ask a person with a CI, "On a 5 point scale, with 1 being little enjoyment and 5 being the greatest enjoyment, how much do you enjoy music?" and they reply a 3; and you ask the same of a hearing person, and they reply a 1, and the same of a deaf person without a CI and they reply a 5, you can easily see that the quality of that enjoyment is not dependent upon the way the music is perceived. That doesn't have anything to do with being PC.

06-03-2009, 01:13 PM	#319 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 32,396	[QUOTE=Daredevel7;1342650]Doesn't the "different points in time" apply for getting a CI? You are talking about "I am happier getting a CI, therefore another person will also be happier getting a CI." I am talking about whether CI can make a difference in ONE person's quality of life. Different ways of getting information//stimuli is experienced by ONE person.[/QUTE] It would apply to that one person only, and whether or not they define different for them as less than. That is exactly what I am saying. You cannot say that just because another perceives an object of art through touch, while you perceive it through sight, that their enjoyment of that object is less than yours based simply on sense differences.