Daredevel7

So you want them to test humans? Is that what you're saying?

I STILL don't understand why you think that your mother would still be alive if it weren't for animal testing. I can sort of see why you think animal testing doesn't work, but how the HECK does animal testing get in the way of finding real cures? You haven't clarified this.

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

David

Let me get this straight... your rat has cancer and you're gonna take the vet's advice and let the cancer give your rat a long, slow, painful death? I'm sure the rat is thinking, "why don't you put me out of my misery?" Think about it; the rat has cancer. The cancer will kill it. It is suffering! Put the rat out of its misery! Take it outside, get a gun, and blow its brains out. Your pet rat will greatly appreciate it.

Oceanbreeze

You can also take a hammer to it's head. But, it would be much kinder than letting it suffer.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

Hear Again

i'm also curious about this.

dreama

If something happened to Jilli it would devistate me too. That is why I find it so upsetting that such things happen all the time in Laboritories to Jilli's less fortunate relatives. Yet so many people are ok about it.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

dreama

Because animals and humans don't react the same way.

We DO already test on humnans eventually. I just want to remove the animal componant in research so that we go straight from computer modelling and human stem cell research to microbiotic dosing in concenting human volunteers.

They have so many new methods on the market that animal testing has become very much unncessary.

I'm sorry if my explaining is unclear. That's why I provided the links because some people who are Doctors and scientists can explain about these things better then I can.

I read an article after mother died that said that big cancer buisnesses don't even want to cure cancer. It was just after mother died and it made me really mad.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

dreama

Mia, my rat, has just had another check up with the vet. Believe me the vet will tell me when the rat has had enough. Right now she's still enjoying life, doing the usual ratty things.

When my mum was dying of cancer she still had an interest in life, so no I won't be killing her until my vet and I feel it is neccessary. And believe me they are very quick to tell you when they think your animal is suffering. Or even sometimes when they aren't.

I have Euthanised animals in the past. My first guide dog Bruce was Euthanised and several of my rats. Including Mia's sister. But I don't believe in doing it before it's time.

And no I wouldn't shoot them. I take them to the vet and ask the vet to give them an anesthetic to knock them out first and only kill the rat with injection after the rat is unconcious. When Bruce (my ex guide dog) had to be euthanised I was with him the whole time.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

Jiro

sorry but i'm not a fan of rat. i prefer ferret but ferret eats rat so....

Hear Again

dreama,

in what way are humans being tested nowadays? human testing is unethical and invites all kinds of problems when it comes to legalities.

where do you get the idea that cancer companies don't want to cure cancer? i'd like some data to support that claim.

Hear Again

ferrets are cute!

Aleser

The cost of treatment is way too high. In CML, assuming commonly used drugs, 3000-6200$ for imatinib and just over 4600$ a month for dasatinib, give or take some change- and both are not sold in generic forms.

Your rat might respond to human chemotherapy, but you would not likely be able to afford it, even in the considerably smaller doses required for a rat. Your vet was offering the reasonable option- managing pain as best you can- as opposed to playing 'torture you and the rat' to extend it's life by a small amount.

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Daredevel7

So you're saying that the scientists are so focused on animal testing which "doesn't work" that they don't spend time on the other methods, therefore possibly delaying cures? Which is why your mother would still be alive because a cure would have been found by now if we didn't waste all that time in animal testing? Is this right, dreama?

May I suggest something? You've read a lot of articles from scientists (if they indeed are scientists) who are against animal testing, I can tell. However, I also can tell that you've never read articles that are FOR animal testing. If you're so strong minded, I'm sure you can point out the flaws in those articles, but you cannot deny that there is AT LEAST some benefit in animal testing. You just don't think its WORTH the animal suffering.

By the way, I am not crazy about animal testing. Obviously, I'd prefer the awesome super computer to figure out what's wrong with me and cure me. The problem is we do NOT have the technology to do that yet. Also, a piece of the puzzle to find cures is stem cells research and right now people are getting upset about that. Can't please everyone, can we?

Jiro

that's the thing.... lot of medical discoveries came from accidents.... like viagra. lot of research on one procedure/drug testing produced unintended result for other problem. For ie - viagra drug which was intended for erectile dysfunction but was later discovered that it is great for people with too low-blood pressure problem. (i'm just making it up but you get my point)

Babyblue

LOL. A hard on, will quickly raise blood pressure.

A lot of medicines are flukes. that what makes modern science great. Medicine that was intended for one thing can be used for another

Jiro

you've said it better!

jillio

Would you really propose that we spend millions developing a cure for cancer in rats? Would a rat voluntarily take themselves to the vet when they start to experience symptoms? Would a rat have the insurance to pay for treatment? Would a rat even have the cognition to know that they needed to go to the vet?

The fact is that experimentation on rats have help to develop cures for cancer and numerous other diseases and disorders. And don't forget that an over population of rats has been responsible for the death of millions of human beings.

Oceanbreeze

...and there are a ton of off-label uses for many medications approved to treat a specific ailment.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

jillio

You keep overlooking the fact that in order to do computer modeling, we must have human data.

If you skip the animal based trials, the only thing you accomplish is less safe treatment for human trials. That is where your argument looses steam. Your proposal is sacrificing relatively safety for humans. You are sacrificing human safety for an animal.

Jiro

the Bubonic Plaque!

Jiro

just spray Windex here and there.

jillio

You got it!

Oceanbreeze

I'll remember this the next time I have a panic attack.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

Jiro

don't forget to spray it at where your heart is. it will calm you down.


** for those who are puzzled about my Windex joke - it's from a hilarious, extremely enjoyable movie called My Big Fat Greek Wedding. The father is so old fashioned and ignorant that he sprays Windex on any medical problems like zit, soreness, etc.

Oceanbreeze

*sigh* Jiro! I wish you'd explain your humor more often! I jumped at you for no reason. Now, I feel like an idiot.

Sorry, dude.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

Jiro

it's ok! it's ok! You're not the only one. My jokes are usually known to be cryptic since a lot of my jokes refer to movies and politic. Some people do not watch those often so they get very puzzled at my crazy jokes LOL

Oceanbreeze

The funny thing is, I SAW that movie! I just don't remember that reference.

At any rate, it's all good.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

dreama

Humans were experimented in Nazi germany and Japan. I don't agree on testing humans at that level. As the tests were cruel, the same as they are for animals. We're talking about basic testing here. However, I do believe that the testing, as cruel as they were did provide Medical advancement. Probably more so then the animal testing as it was scientifically revilant to test humans for human ailments.

However I will REPEAT that I do NOT approve of Testing humans. Except in final stage trials which are done at the moment, and I feel could be done a lot more safely if animal testing was scrapped and computer modeling and Adult stem cells replaced it.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

dreama

This is the article I read. I had no problem believing it because the big animal testing charities did not lift a finger to help mother when she was dying of cancer. They were too busy with their scedule of torturing animals. As I said it made me feel very very angry. To think people were making money out of mother's suffering and claiming she was cured 3 times, and promising new cancer cures that are yet to come on the market.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

jillio

If you don't approve of testing on animals, and you don't approve of testing on humans, the only alternative left is to use untested medicines and procedures. Exactly how is that safer?

dreama

Chemo and radiation doesn't cure cancer. I believe some people use that method on dogs if they can afford it but I don't think many vets would use that method on a rat and I wouldn't be interested in subjecting my rat to it even if it was.

My mum had radiation and Chemo therapy. She still died after only 4 years.

The only sure way of curing cancer is if you catch it really early and they manage to give you a hysterectomy or remove breast, eye, leg or other body part that the cancer is. That only works if the cancer is in a body part that can be safely removed and it hasnt spread past the limit. They did operate on mum but the cancer had spread too much due to the fact that it had been left too long.

If you catch the cancer at the stage where it's still contained in one place that can safely be removed they also can be cured but that is only in the early stages.

I know of a few people who survived cancer by operation in early stage but don't know anyone who survived cancer after it had been left for too long. It seems most people in that situation has already died.

By the way, I heard the person who originally invented Chemo originally tested this method on herself. Don't ask me for a link. It's just something I remember but I've no idea from where. I think it was Marie Curie who did that? Again I can't remember any more details.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/