jillio

And there are millions more who owe their lives to animal research and the advances it has fostered.

Deafness

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jillio

See post #30, and read a few of OB's personal experiences with such. That will get you off to a good start.

jillio

I said PETA-like. You do know the difference, don't you? If not I'll be glad to explain it to you.

Jiro

including your life, dreama.... your life.... all thanks to medical knowledge and advancement from animal research...

Oceanbreeze

I really wish she would, but I know better.

Oh well. I'm going to bed. I've got an appt to keep tomorrow.

Good night all.

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Oceanbreeze

Yup.

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"You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire. Once the flame begins to catch, the wind will blow it higher."

~Peter Gabriel

Jiro

you have CONTINUED to fail to provide us examples of medical research being advanced without animal testing.

can you list me cases of medical advancement being done without animal testing in the last 120 years? No do not give me any links. Say it in your own words.

I'm having hard time believing that our medical knowledge will progress without animal research. Please educate me. I'm not interested in links. Convince me with your own words.

Aleser

I've been in many trials, and from when I was old enough to understand what risks are, they were explained to me, even if I was still young enough that my parents wee the ones consenting to my participation.

Pay ranges from very small amounts to cover local travel and parking to in the high hundreds for a study that required a short hospital stay.

As much as I'm all for advancing understanding of my disease (and the relevant treatments that have added thirty four YEARS to my life!), and as much as I don't mind the additional income and free medication, I would NEVER participate in any drug trial that involved a drug not already tested on animals- and I'm pretty sure almost all humans who have actually been in a trial would agree with me.

You go into it knowing there are risks and maybe you'll be the reason they discover the worst of them, but there is still some basis establishing a relative safety. That's very different from blindly stumbling into a drug or treatment without any sort of background.

And, on note of comments about how heart transplants would not have come to be, nobody would survive a transplant for very long without animal testing. Cyclosporin was tested on animals first, not humans. Without it, transplants would be a very short-lived savior.

I'm proud to be a vegan, but I'm not giving up my very good life for this cause. I'm walking because of animal testing. That is a reality, and you piss on it by saying animal testing doesn't matter. It matters to me, because without it, the only thing I'd be right now is what was left of a children's size casket.

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"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

jillio

Excellent post, Aleser. I thank you for sharing your first hand experience on this matter. I have absolutely no objection to those who chose a Vegan lifestyle, whether it be for health concerns or for ethical concerns. As a matter of fact, I admire the dedication it takes to adhere to a Vegan diet. My problem is with those who use a personal choice to dedicate themselves to a Vegan lifestyle to protest against those procedures that can and do save lives and improve quality of life for millions. Especially when they claim that the Vegan diet is far healthier, and then deny the opportunity to achieve greater health to others through protest of proper scientific testing of medications and procedures. I certainly don't object to the ethical principles behind the Vegan choice. What I object to is the distortion of those ethical principles that would require sacrificing human life in favor of protecting animal life.

Oceanbreeze

I have an immense amount of respect for you.

I, too, would not be alive without the advances of medical science.

__________________
"You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire. Once the flame begins to catch, the wind will blow it higher."

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Aleser

Eh, I put it right up with the old days of using animal-based insulin.. you weren't 'really' a vegan in some people's eyes if you decided to stay alive by using it. There are simply some people, most often the healthy ones never faced with their life versus an animal's life, that will not look beyond their 'truth' in the situation and accept the reality- your choices do not save the world, and they don't give you the right to judge it.

I suppose arguing it is moot point, though. My own sig should remind me of how silly it is.

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Aleser

Thanks!

__________________
"She thinks... she can make people do what she wants or needs, what is right, by the sheer force of her own talent, not by forcing them... she can teach them and persuade them... that they'll catch it from her. This is still faith in their rationality, in the omnipotence of reason. The mistake? Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them."

Oceanbreeze

You're welcome

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dreama

If you are in a life and death situation then of course you should take medicine that was tested on animals because everything is. HOWEVER they were also tested on humans afterwards. Many trials don't work on human volunteers and their are even cases of drugs that worked perfectly fine on rats and monkeys but on humans they did a lot of damage.

Vivisectors ignore the tests they do on animals. I recently found out about one of the drugs I used to take for epilepsy. It causes cancer in rats. I've taken about 30 of those tablets all at once (I was suicidal at the time). I still don't have cancer.

Also penicillin was found without animal testing. In some animals it doesnt work though so had they tested on those animals we may not have got penicillin.

I give the links because they are by people who are scientists and doctors and can speak more knowlegably and elquantly then I can since I'm neither a scientist or a doctor. But their ARE scientists, doctors and vets who are against animal testing. Their are even ex vivisectionists who give testimony that animal testing doesn't work.

Their are lots of new aproaches on the market. So animal testing is definately out dated.

And besides you can take drugs or treatment that was tested on animals and still be against that. I would never have stopped mum from taking treatment as long as they were on the market for at least 10 years (for safety reasons) Even if they were tested on animals since I would be fully aware that they worked DESPITE animal testing not because of animal testing.

Talking about cancer. I read about a treatment that has come about without animal testing. That was funded by the humane research trust. Unfortunately mum had died by then but it could have helped her if she'd taken it.

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jillio

Tell you what. You refuse to take any drug that was tested on animals, and refuse any medical procedure that was developed as a result of animal research. When you can live up to that, you will have the courage of your convictions. Until then, you are spouting steam, because if your life was at risk, we all know you would be more than willing to take the meds and have the surgery to save your own life. You really need to get a grip.

Oceanbreeze

She does need to get that grip, but I disagree with you. I really don't think she'd do it. She'd let a life threatening illness kill her for her "cause". There's thousands of people like her. It's lunacy.

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deafskeptic

Well said. I would have been dead of myxodemia by now if it weren't for animal testing.

As for Vegan as a diet, I will never be one though anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of my meals tend to be vegetarian in nature. I like meat too much. There is considerable evidence humans evolved to be omnivores. Even so, the American diet is a tad unhealthy.

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jillio

Personally, I don't see the strength of conviction that would take coming from her.

jillio

Agreed. The American diet is not the healthiest in the world. But as I said in a reply to Aleser...it is not the Vegan diet or lifestyle that I object to. It is the gross distortion of the fundamental prinicples of such used in this way. Good for dreama, she's a Vegan. I hope she has what it takes to be true to that lifestyle. But she has absolutely no right to deny helath care to others, or to prevent medical advances that save millions of life every year due to animal testing and experimentation to anyone else. It is unbelievably arrogant.

dreama

You've all got it wrong. All these things you keep saying you would be alive it wasn't for animal testing just is NOT TRUE.

Animal testing has been round for a long time. So has observation of cases, human trials, and other methods. Not to mention the experiements of humans during Japanese occupation and Nazi germany which also paved the way for medical progress.

So no you weren't there because some animals got tortured in a few futile experiements. You are there DESPITE that fact.

I am fully convinced that my mum WOULD STILL BE ALIVE IF ANIMAL TESTING HAD BEEN SCRAPPED. AND MORE SCIENTIFICLLY VALUBLE OPTION WAS AVAILABE.

It makes me feel really sad that so many people are ok about torturing animals and making false claims about it. I want to be sick.

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jillio

Animal testing has nothing to do with your Mum having to wait too long for medical treatment. But your bitterness and anger at the medical community is probably easily explained by the fact that you have not managed to work through your grief process in a healthy manner. I'd suggest you get some help from a qualified therapist to deal with those issues.

I wouldn't get sick if I were you. You might have to take some medicine that was tested on animals to get better. And then where would you be with your holier than thou ethics?

"Its not true, its not true, its not true, its not true". Saying it again and again, especially in the face of completely contradictory evidence does not make it so, dreama. It does, however create the possibility that you are in denial, or worse, delusional.

Babyblue

Dreama. Animals are euthanise daily .. Animals are tested on daily medications, lotions, and even the soap you bath in plus more. Unless you are one that TRUELY assure that ANY of the products that you use saids otherwise. You are just as guilty as the rest of us that approves of animal testing. Look up some of your household products and items you use in your own home. Sorry but it may be a shock to you.

The shoes you wear. The clothes you wear the laundry detergent etc. Read all the labels..

Let me know if you don't use ANY products that has been tested.

If you do live such life

Then please tell us how you live such life truely.

Oceanbreeze

I didn't think of all that, but you're absolutely right. Animal testing is done on alot of things. It's not just drugs and surgical procedures. It's things we use every single day of our lives.

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Hear Again

dreama,

I honestly can't understand why you think your mother would still be alive if animal testing were stopped.

Animal testing allows for the *advancement* of research for terminal diseases like cancer. That's why I fully support it.

There's a *very* good possibility that my mother would still be alive (from terminal pancreatic cancer) provided animal testing found a cure for cancer. I have no doubt in my mind of that.

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Deafblind/Postlingual

Jiro

only way to live like that is to live like Theodore Kaczynski

Hear Again

That's true. If it were not for animal testing, we wouldn't have many of the things we do.

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Deafblind/Postlingual

Hear Again

If it were not for animal testing, I wouldn't have the meds I need to keep my Bipolar relatively stable. And for that, I am thankful.

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Deafblind/Postlingual

Hear Again

Can you prove that, dreama?

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Deafblind/Postlingual

Hear Again

dreama,

Why do you think animal testing does not help medical research?

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Oceanbreeze

No, she can't.

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"You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire. Once the flame begins to catch, the wind will blow it higher."

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