dreama

What do people think about selective abortion. Please read articles I have linked up to.

On grounds of gender:

Fetal Sex Test Used as Step To Abortion - New York Times


On grounds of disability:

DISABLED PERSON S PERSPECTIVE ON EUGENIC ABORTION

Abortion and disability or eugenic abortion

While selective abortion on grounds of gender is usually frowned on, selective abortion on grounds of disability is actually incorage. These double standards speak volumes about how some people view disabled people. In fact Britain you can abort a disabled person up until birth. (yes I did say 30 months in another thread but I've since checked and it's up until birth)

I've know several people with downs syndrome and they are no more disabled then we are. I've also known people with Spina bifida.

Why should people consider it ok to abort on grounds of disability and not gender. Why should there be a differance?
Why should any baby be aborted if they are fully capable of surviving outside the womb. Wether with a disability or not? What is so wrong with being disabled anyway?

Please this thread is for discussing selective and late term abortion ONLY. There is lots of other threads for discussing abortion in general.

__________________
I speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
http://www.fightfoca.com/

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

Jiro

oh god...... how many different kinds of abortions do we got? it's very simple. very simple - it's ultimately women's choice to do whatever they want with their wombs. simple as that. even though it is frowned upon on.... the reason is of no concern to me. it's their body. period. they have 2 choices - do it or not do it. there should be no debate.

Oceanbreeze

Amen!

I'm pro choice, so I think that speaks for itself. Enough said.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

KarissaMann05

Dreama, once you were a fetus...

No one know what happen to you if you are wanted but if mother don't want you... that's mean no one care about you, unless you are very valued if you are wanted by your mother in order to gain your personhood.

Once you were a fetus...

No one care if you are a deaf or disabled person,
No one care if you are a great leader soldier,
No one care if you are a normal person,
No one care if you are a pro artist,
No one care if you are a famous artist,
No one care if you are a child of rapist,
No one care if you are the responality for your descendant's existence,
No one care if you are the responality for existence of an importance person's families who is not related to you.
No one care if you are an abortion survivor.
No one care if you are saved your best friend's life.
No one care if you improved some people's, you know or don't know who, lifestyles.
No one care if you are a fantastic scientist.

Nobody will care if the timeline would be "messed up" if you are not here.

You are nothing more importance than a rock, nobody care about you.

It is all about a woman's choice, no one give a damn about YOU!

That is how I see that way, if you know what I meant... Just... to me, if you were a fetus, then you are just nothing but YOU are just trashy.

That is why those stupid pro-choicers told me that I should be aborted because of my background and deafness... they picked on me before.
So, yeah... I know what you meant excatly. :-\

__________________
"Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

jillio

These articles again lead right back to anti-abortion sites and are nothing more than opinion of a few overly zealous people who wish to remove the rioghts of all women based on their own moral standards.

Abortions are not performed for sex selection. An elective abortion is done in the first trimester, and sec cannot even be determined at that point in time. All fetuses start out as female, and not until they reach the second trimester does sex become something that can be determined. Abortions in the second trimester are performed for health issues regarding fetus and/or mother.

The fact that the information used to argue for the removal of a woman's right to chose a medical procedure that is a confidential matter between her and her doctor are continuing to spread lies and deception, at their worst, and extremely misleading and innaccurate statements at their best.

Maria

Let's say, if your mother decide to have an abortion and don't want to KEEP you --- what are you gonna say ?

If, your mother abort you, you wouldn't be here to post anything. We will never know you. You are not important.

jillio

That is not what prochoice people stand for. That is what predjudiced, uneducated, and hateful people stand for.

You don't want them to force abortion on a person carrying a child with a disability. You want the woman to be free to choice to carry that baby.

Then you have to grant the next woman the same right to decide for herself.

The people that you are talking about are the same as the anti-abortion crowd. They want to force their values on everyone. Pro-choice means that you allow everyone to decide for themselves what is right for them.

jillio

That is a moot point. His mother did not choose to abort him. And the whole point was that she had a choice. You remove that choice for women to decide, and you open the door for the eugenicists to come in and determine when a woman must have an abortion. If you say that a woman doesn't have the right to choose to abort a child with a disability that is incompatible with life and will not survive, then you are also opening the door for someone to step in and tell you when you can't carry a preganancy to term. That's what you are failing to understand. If you take away a woman's right to choose, then you also loose your right to choose, and could be forced to abort simply because you are deaf and someone thinks that you aren't capable of being a mother.

If you don't want others forcing their views on you and determining how you live your life, you cannot force your views on others.

jillio

I just have to make one more point here. No one, no one is saying that being opposed to abortion is wrong. The pro-choicers say that if you are opposed to abortion, it is your right to believe that way, and you have the right to choose for yourself which position you take. They are only saying that you do not have the right to make that decision for anyone esle. I decide what my values are, and you decide what your values are. And then you make your decisions for yourself based on those values. But you cannot make decisions for me based on your values.

I see people in here complaining all the time about the hearing world making decisions for the deaf, and that the deaf should have the right to make decisions for themselves, and to decide how they want to live with their deafness. They don't want the values of the hearing such as oral language and CI forced on them just because the hearing world thinks that deafness is wrong.

If you take that stance as a deaf person, you must be ethical enough to understand that it applies in all situations, and if you don't want others forcing their beliefs on you and interfering with your life, you cannot do it to others in any circumstance. If you do, it is hypocritical.

KarissaMann05

Yeah, excaltly.

I also can't wait for new high-advanced technical tools and/or potions come up for one month of pregnancy only. It should have a little cheaper and it's easy to use. If girls/women can't afford, then she can use some helps to gain her abortion. I think it will much better, and hopefully, USA would have a similar stastastic (sp; like how precents, number of rate, etc) to Europe later, since the Europe has much lower rate than USA. I am all for pro-brith-control.

So I think second and third term of pregnancy are so pointless and cruel.

__________________
"Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

Liebling:-)))

for links. I will forward those links to my British friends.

I personally am against partial birth abortion for no reasons. If they want to abort then do that until 12 weeks.

With disabled babies and life threatening is a different story.


I respect women´s decision for not keep disabled babies or do not want to give their life up because they have feeling.

Did you know it´s a lot of work to do to take care of disabled children with therapies?

Who will cover the cost of therapies to develop disabled children with speech, learn to write and read, movement, etc? It´s okay for rich people who can afford to acheive the cost of therapies for disabled children, not poor and middle class people. Is it fair to burden poor and middle class people with expenses when NHS (British National Healthcare Service insurance) doesn´t cover everything to 100% for therapies?

It would burden the parents to take care of special need child with love and attention. One of the parents need to stay home to take care of special need child.

__________________

Liebling:-)))

wow, this is an emotional opinion.

How should fetuses say when they don´t have any form of memories, experience with pain etc what we human have? They simple don't KNOW. It's unfair to compare human´s personal experience with fetuses.

__________________

KarissaMann05

No, that's not what she meant. For explain, what do their lives look like if you are not an existed person? Without you?

That's what she was talked about.

__________________
"Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

jillio

I posted a link to the British abortion laws in your link last week, Liebling. In England, as in the U.S., an abortion performed after the first trimester is done only if the mother's or the fetus' life is at stake. A partial birth abortion is only done late in the pregnancy and is actually the safest procedure to use when the mother's life is at risk.

jillio

No one would ever know. If something did not exist, the only way to know what it would be like if it did exist is to make it up in our imagination.

But I'll ask the same question in reverse. How many lives would have been saved if Hitler's mother had chosen to abort him? What about Jeffrey Dahmer's mother, or Charles Manson's mother?

Liebling:-)))

Yes, I saw your post toward Dreama and do not need to correct you because it´s right... that´s what I said to Dreama at my thread today. I was like when I read 2 links, Dreama provided here because I never heard that disabled fetus is allow to abort until after 24 weeks... but under 24 weeks yes. Life threatening is a different story. They have to do with CS to deliver baby out under/after 24 weeks... rare babies survive under/after 24 weeks, not cut fetus into pieces (partial birth abortion).

That´s why I am going to forward 2 links to my British friends.

__________________

Liebling:-)))

Yes I know what she is talking about. I only questioned her how do fetus know?

Like what Jillo said, how do mothers know their children turn into good, bad, evil, monster, etc when they become adult? How could Catholic religon mother know Hilter is a monster before and after she gave a birth to him?

Nobody knows what it look like...

Should we wait for Jiro123 to answer Maria´s question either he remember he was a fetus or not.

__________________

jillio

Many people are confused about what "partial birth abortion" actually is. The anti-abortion crowd has led others to believe that the baby is actually cut into sections, and then the sections are removed. That is not true. Partial birth abortion is actually called "D & X" standing for "dialation and extraction." Here is a description of the procedure:

The term was first coined by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) in 1995 to describe a recently introduced medical procedure to remove fetuses from the womb. Alternately known as "dilation and extraction," or D&X, and "intact D&E," it involves removing the fetus intact by dilating a pregnant woman's cervix, then pulling the entire body out through the birth canal.

The further along a pregnancy is, the more complicated -- and the more controversial -- the procedures are for aborting it. Abortions performed after the 20th week of pregnancy typically require that the fetus be dismembered inside the womb so it can be removed without damaging the pregnant woman's cervix. Some gynecologists consider such methods, known as "dilation and evacuation," less than ideal because they can involve substantial blood loss and may increase the risk of lacerating the cervix, potentially undermining the woman's ability to bear children in the future.

Two abortion physicians, one in Ohio and one in California, independently developed variations on the method by extracting the fetus intact. The Ohio physician, Martin Haskell, called his method "dilation and extraction," or D&X. It involved dilating the woman's cervix, then pulling the fetus through it feet first until only the head remained inside. Using scissors or another sharp instrument, the head was then punctured, and the skull compressed, so it, too, could fit through the dilated cervix.


'Partial-Birth Abortion:' Separating Fact from Spin : NPR

The procedure does not involve mutilation of the fetus. However, there is a procedure that does, and when the U.S. outlawed the D & X procedure, doctors were still free to perform the procdure that dismembers the fetus. This procedure is much more risky to the mother than D & X.

So, you can see that when the anti-abortion crowd talks about D & X, they have given it a name intended to create an emotional response, and they have also lied about the actual procedure to make people feel horrified unneccesarily. And all that was achieved by outlawing the procedure was that doctors can no longer perform a procedure that is safer and more humane than the one they are left with. The anti-abortionists actually created a situation whereby the most humane procedure was outlawed in favor of the less humane procedure.

And, we must keep in mind, the abortions performed at the stage of the pregnancy when a D & X would be required are done in the case of threats to the health of the mother or the fetus. It is a medical decision between a woman and her physician. And now, physicians have been prevented from offering the woman a more humane, safer, less traumatic medical procedure simply because a few wish to make a decision for all, even when the decision does not affect them in any way.

Oceanbreeze

The reasoning does not matter. It's nobody's business why a women would choose to abort a pregnancy. That's between her and her doctor ONLY.

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

jillio

exactly!

Oceanbreeze

Funny you should bring this up. My Mother was in such a position. The situation was a bit different, but not much. I was born with a hole in my spine. A condition called spina bifida. This is something that causes life long issues for the baby. Treatment includes the immediate closure of the back to prevent deadly infections. My Mother was young and didn't know what to do. Her Dr was pro-life and told her "If you don't consent to treatment for your baby and she dies, you will have murdered her..." That's an exact quote. Mom told me the story when I was nearly in my 20s. She DIDN'T know what to do. She chose to consent to surgery and here I am.

Before I go any further, let me say I am grateful for her decision. How could I not be? But, at the same time, that Dr is the REASON I am for choice today. That Dr had NO business interjecting her own agenda into the situation. My Mother was young and scared. She should have had an unbiased person helping her to decide what to do, and she didn't. I am saddened at that.

Nobody has the right to pressure a woman into making a decision; even if that decision means death to a sickly infant (either before or after birth).

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."

Tousi

It is always difficult when I think of those who use this right as a birth control method. How does one get one's mind around that?

jillio

Well said, Oceanbreeze!

shel90

OoHHHHHH!!!!!! Good one and very good point!

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

Abortion is a last resort for most of women. The majority of first trimester abortions are done after the failure of a birth control method. Most women were taking precautions against preganancy, so it is not as it they are behaving irresponsibly and then just, without concern, have an abortion.

jillio

Thank you, shel.

KarissaMann05

Jillio -

If it is a reverse question, my answer is still same if it is really happen... You never know, it is a lot of better or worse if a half of us may not be here. A half of non-existence people may be "here", and their "lives" could be much better than us or could be much worse than us. It is a same thing. Like you said, NO ONE knew what happen to those future people, "what if" things in past situations, and us.

Life is life, let it be.

I meant, for only an example, if you are trapped in a massive fire building with an unfamiliar stranger and could not get out. Another person is willing to rescuse only one way - this person personally knew this stranger and his/her life very well, but this person know so much nothing about you because s/he and you never meet each other. This person comes in and the person must make a quick desicion to choice only one optional of two; that stranger and you. The rescuser may have a little care about you or nothing at all, you never know.
Which do you really think the person will recuse this stranger or you? Now you have my point. Just like they choose wanted children over unwanted children because they don't know them very well and it is really easy to assume those unwanted children have a lousy life because they are not really valued at all... It's just like mother choose herself over her child because she don't know who this unborn child is. That is life, right? Again, it's only an example.

So, it is a life is life...

__________________
"Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

KarissaMann05

That *stupid* doctor should not give your mom so hard time... If I were the doctor, I should have say:

"If you don't consent to treatment for your baby, she probably will die. But my suggestion for (a several/some optionals for treatment with great explainations and another explainations for both adoption and abortion), they may good choice for you and your baby. You can pick one of any optional or this abortion or that adoption. Be remember, it's your choice, it is the best desicion for you. There is no wrong or right. Once you decide, I will be happy to help you with your desicion."

Sorry if my comment is sound not totally neurtal and sucks, but I tried my best to stay neurtal... Yeah, I know I am not a doctor... >w<;; My point is, like you said, each doctor or consulor should be neurtal person for any woman/girl.

__________________
"Pragmatic language is a vital social skill that enables the school-aged child to navigate their way through demanding social situations." -- R. Owens

Maria

I am not talkin' about REMEMBER. I am talkin' about how he would FEEL in his own reality, if it were his mother who decides not to keep him.... it doesn't matter, if it wasn't for his mother - it could be ANY mother who could give birth of him. Suppose if, his mother could NOT afford or was raped by someone else or somethin' that she could not keep him for ANY reason, HOW would he FEEL about bein' aborted by his own mother ? It would MAKE him " unimportant " because he was UNLOVED and UNWANTED. Why would someone throw a fetus away ?

Don't you realize that every agency have a better access for all disabled persons ? Deaf babies could get hearing aids or CI to help learning how to speak. There are some actors who are Down's Syndrome...some of them are painists. Every child is an investment to its parents in despite of their handicapped or what ever. There's many accesible for disabled persons every where and even, tty for deaf persons, too. Hearing people can help them.

Oceanbreeze

What's the difference? Saying "probably" or "will" carries the same message. "Consent or your child will (probably, ect...) die.." means the same thing and it's wrong for any doctor to impart their agenda on someone.

My Mother didn't have the option because I was already born. Hers was a choice of treatment or no treatment, and the doctor told my mother point blank she would be a murderer if she didn't consent to treatment. No matter how you say it, it's wrong to give that kind of message!

__________________
"There comes a time in your life, when you walk away from all the drama and people who create it. You surround yourself with people who make you laugh. Forget the bad, and focus on the good. Love the people who treat you right, pray for the ones who don't. Life is too short to be anything but happy. Falling down is a part of life, getting back up is living."