Do you support abortion as - Page 12

jillio · 05-26-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I agree, Of course We support health care for mothers and infants, even there is also a program that helps low incoming families which called WIC.

How exactly is it that you support health care for young mothers and children living in poverty? Are you speaking out on the lack of health care, the lack of proper nutrition, the lack of eductional opportunity and employment opportunty that plagues these families? Are you campaigning for national health care that would insure every child?

WIC (or Women Infants and Children) is a low income based nutritional supplement. It does not address health care. It provides coupons to pregnant women and women with long children that are living below an income level necessary to sustain them. Those coupons are used to purchase milk, juice, cereal, and other nutritional items.

What would be your solution for the young drug addicted mother that was living on the streets to escape an abusive home environment? How would you address her health needs, the health needs of her child, the need for shelter and nutrition, the need for parenting classes, the need for support systems, the need for mental health sevices, and recovery services?

Would youvote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also pro-choice on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was pro-choice?

Reba · 05-26-2008, 01:31 PM

Many "anti-abortion" individuals and groups support unwed mother homes and programs, with their dollars and time. They provide a safe, clean environment for them to live in, schooling and job training, parenting classes, baby necessities, counseling, transportation for doctor visits, etc. Many "anti-abortion" families adopt or foster babies born to unwed mothers. Many non-profit daycares are run and supported by "anti-abortion" groups.

On the other hand, just because some "pro-abortion" individuals say that their position is motivated only by altruism for women and children, doesn't mean that they all provide support to the moms who "choose" to give birth rather than abort.

Let me ask, "Would you vote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also anti-abortion on demand on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was anti-abortion on demand?"

jillio · 05-26-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Many "anti-abortion" individuals and groups support unwed mother homes and programs, with their dollars and time. They provide a safe, clean environment for them to live in, schooling and job training, parenting classes, baby necessities, counseling, transportation for doctor visits, etc. Many "anti-abortion" families adopt or foster babies born to unwed mothers. Many non-profit daycares are run and supported by "anti-abortion" groups.

On the other hand, just because some "pro-abortion" individuals say that their position is motivated only by altruism for women and children, doesn't mean that they all provide support to the moms who "choose" to give birth rather than abort.

Let me ask, "Would you vote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also anti-abortion on demand on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was anti-abortion on demand?"

Got any sites for the anti-abortion groups who are so politically active in the campaign for human rights?

And, yes I would. Because at least with his anti-abortion stance he is seeking the means to provide for those fetuses that he seeks to prevent being aborted. While I still believe that the issue is one of choice, I would be far more inclined to vote for a candidate who at least had the courage of his pro-life convictions by seeking a remedy to the situations that will be created by an overturning of Roe V Wade than a candidate is anti-abortion without having made those provisions and, as a result, has taken a hypocritical position.

KarissaMann05 · 05-26-2008, 09:35 PM

Liebling - I just waited for owner of her journal to answer my question and asked her with her permission for copying her answers to paste in here. It's about a baby can feel a pain at around 4 or 5 months of pregnancy. So... I hope she allow me to paste it in here but I feel so doubt she will. Wait see... Oh, yeah. I also can't find any website cos I don't remember where it is...

Anyway -

No, it's not what you thought so.

Quote:

I was 13 weeks pregnant when I lost my baby. I gave birth to a teeny, tiny little human with ten fingers and ten toes, two eyes, a nose, two ears, all the parts a full-grown baby is born with. And as I looked at my tiny baby's body, ... so many women in this country don't even see it as being a life, being alive and worthy of protection.

Quote:

...We couldn't have her buried in a proper cemetary because her life wasn't even recognized as a life. ... (Link)

I simply pointed that fetus is more human than just parasites (go see [prochoice link] yourself and pro-choicers still consider them as non-person). Same with an anti-child childfree person, sometimes, don't consider young children (under 10 or 5 of the age) as a person or human. To me, it just kill a tiny child because it stops heart beating.

Yes, I am a "wanted" child. But, you don't get what I said. Since many pro-choicers always worry about "happy"/"prefect" childhood... THAT'S WHY A FEW IDIOT PROCHOICERS TOLD ME THAT MY MOM SHOULD ABORT ME BECAUSE OF MY LOUSY CHILDHOOD AND STUPID DISABLITY. IT'S NOT MATTER IF I AM WANTED OR NOT.
Personally, I hate "each child is wanted child and if not, kill it" subject. I don't want you to label me as wanted child, obviously, it got me wonder what if my mom don't want me. She would abort me for sure! Let me ask you - for example, you had a bad childhood with your parent, but only if so, you feel don't dervses to be here because how your childhood was suffered, right? Don't you want to have an awful experience, right? If yes, then a whole of your family, (best) friends, teachers, ADers, and people are meaningless to YOU. Thay/we are not really importance to you because of YOUR BAD CHILDHOOD should put in a viod, in order to save you from the vile experience. That's my point is "wanted-ness" vs "welcomed" is beyond illogical debate, so I am just "unwelcomed" to world because of my poor qaulity of life should be viod as (few) pro-choicers said so!

Now, do you get it what I said? I hope you do..

No, I refered to hanger coats.

jillio · 05-26-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Liebling - I just waited for owner of her journal to answer my question and asked her with her permission for copying her answers to paste in here. It's about a baby can feel a pain at around 4 or 5 months of pregnancy. So... I hope she allow me to paste it in here but I feel so doubt she will. Wait see... Oh, yeah. I also can't find any website cos I don't remember where it is...

Anyway -

No, it's not what you thought so.

I simply pointed that fetus is more human than just parasites (go see [prochoice link] yourself and pro-choicers still consider them as non-person). Same with an anti-child childfree person, sometimes, don't consider young children (under 10 or 5 of the age) as a person or human. To me, it just kill a tiny child because it stops heart beating.

Yes, I am a "wanted" child. But, you don't get what I said. Since many pro-choicers always worry about "happy"/"prefect" childhood... THAT'S WHY A FEW IDIOT PROCHOICERS TOLD ME THAT MY MOM SHOULD ABORT ME BECAUSE OF MY LOUSY CHILDHOOD AND STUPID DISABLITY. IT'S NOT MATTER IF I AM WANTED OR NOT.
Personally, I hate "each child is wanted child and if not, kill it" subject. I don't want you to label me as wanted child, obviously, it got me wonder what if my mom don't want me. She would abort me for sure! Let me ask you - for example, you had a bad childhood with your parent, but only if so, you feel don't dervses to be here because how your childhood was suffered, right? Don't you want to have an awful experience, right? If yes, then a whole of your family, (best) friends, teachers, ADers, and people are meaningless to YOU. Thay/we are not really importance to you because of YOUR BAD CHILDHOOD should put in a viod, in order to save you from the vile experience. That's my point is "wanted-ness" vs "welcomed" is beyond illogical debate, so I am just "unwelcomed" to world because of my poor qaulity of life should be viod as (few) pro-choicers said so!

Now, do you get it what I said? I hope you do..

No, I refered to hanger coats.

In your quote, was the person referring to an abortion. She said, "I lost my baby" which would imply miscarraige. A miscarraige is not considered to be a birth. The fetus has not reached viability at 13 weeks, therefore it is not considered a birth.

She couldn't have her buried in a cemetary because it was not a still birth. It was a miscarraige.

While these quotes are very touching emotionally, that is all they are. Someone's emotional response to a miscarraige.

What exactly is it that you think confers "personhood" on a 13 week embryo?

Reba · 05-26-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Got any sites for the anti-abortion groups who are so politically active in the campaign for human rights?

Not tonight. I have to leave soon. If I have time tomorrow night.

Give me an example of what you consider "human rights".

Quote:

And, yes I would...

If you can do that, then why do you think anti-abortion on demand proponents might not reason the same way?

jillio · 05-26-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not tonight. I have to leave soon. If I have time tomorrow night.

Give me an example of what you consider "human rights".

If you can do that, then why do you think anti-abortion on demand proponents might not reason the same way?

Lets see.....human rights issues would include the issues of universal health care provided on need, not social status or income level, access to good nutrition, the right not to live in abject poverty because of inequities in a stratified society, issues of inequities within the legal system, the right to one's cultural heritage, etc.etc.etc.

KarissaMann05 · 05-26-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

In your quote, was the person referring to an abortion. She said, "I lost my baby" which would imply miscarraige. A miscarraige is not considered to be a birth. The fetus has not reached viability at 13 weeks, therefore it is not considered a birth.

She couldn't have her buried in a cemetary because it was not a still birth. It was a miscarraige.

While these quotes are very touching emotionally, that is all they are. Someone's emotional response to a miscarraige.

What exactly is it that you think confers "personhood" on a 13 week embryo?

Quote:

... all the parts a full-grown baby is born with ... so many women in this country don't even see it as being a life, being alive and worthy of protection.

Just like slavery, whites don't see those africa americans as human being or person. Just slaves in their eyes of whites. To me, because I was shared by some pro-lifers' miscarriage experiences and they saw tiny children in their hands and those little ones are fully humans while those little ones are still developed until they are completed before at birth. Pro-choicers... just shrug as if they are not truly humans or non-persons at all so a female can have an another one...

jillio · 05-26-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Just like slavery, whites don't see those africa americans as human being or person. Just slaves in their eyes of whites. To me, because I was shared by some pro-lifers' miscarriage experiences and they saw tiny children in their hands and those little ones are fully humans while those little ones are still developed until they are completed before at birth. Pro-choicers... just shrug as if they are not truly humans or non-persons at all so a female can have an another one...

The experience of miscarraige cannot be equated to the experience of abortion. They are 2 separate issues emotionally.

But you still haven't told me what confers the status of "personhood" on a fetus. What makes a person a person? Is it a couple of arms, and the beginning of a liver, or is it the ability to think, feel, and reason?

KarissaMann05 · 05-26-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The experience of miscarraige cannot be equated to the experience of abortion. They are 2 separate issues emotionally.

But you still haven't told me what confers the status of "personhood" on a fetus. What makes a person a person? Is it a couple of arms, and the beginning of a liver, or is it the ability to think, feel, and reason?

:sighs: I don't feel like I can explain it again...

jillio · 05-26-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

:sighs: I don't feel like I can explain it again...

Okay.

Liebling:-))) · 05-27-2008, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

How exactly is it that you support health care for young mothers and children living in poverty? Are you speaking out on the lack of health care, the lack of proper nutrition, the lack of eductional opportunity and employment opportunty that plagues these families? Are you campaigning for national health care that would insure every child?

WIC (or Women Infants and Children) is a low income based nutritional supplement. It does not address health care. It provides coupons to pregnant women and women with long children that are living below an income level necessary to sustain them. Those coupons are used to purchase milk, juice, cereal, and other nutritional items.

What would be your solution for the young drug addicted mother that was living on the streets to escape an abusive home environment? How would you address her health needs, the health needs of her child, the need for shelter and nutrition, the need for parenting classes, the need for support systems, the need for mental health sevices, and recovery services?

Would youvote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also pro-choice on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was pro-choice?

*nodding agreement*

Cheri · 05-27-2008, 06:40 AM

Hillary Clinton is for pro-choice, and I am still voting for her, I don't know what are you trying to prove.

I know what is WIC, Why do you think I have two sons?

Liebling:-))) · 05-27-2008, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Many "anti-abortion" individuals and groups support unwed mother homes and programs, with their dollars and time. They provide a safe, clean environment for them to live in, schooling and job training, parenting classes, baby necessities, counseling, transportation for doctor visits, etc. Many "anti-abortion" families adopt or foster babies born to unwed mothers. Many non-profit daycares are run and supported by "anti-abortion" groups.

On the other hand, just because some "pro-abortion" individuals say that their position is motivated only by altruism for women and children, doesn't mean that they all provide support to the moms who "choose" to give birth rather than abort.

Let me ask, "Would you vote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also anti-abortion on demand on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was anti-abortion on demand?"

Yes it would be nice to have support BUT I beleive if women really want to keep a child and look for solution and seek for the support and make sure either they are able to be responsible to raise a child with loving then is right for them, not force to continue with pregnancy because anyone influence them so when they do not feel ready to be responsible mother. (Some women do not feel like to depend on anyone's support to feel sorry themselves or feel that they do not raise a child in their own responsibly way).

I also beleive it's good solution for women to seek the family counsellor for pros/cons advice before they are able to make decision either they feel ready to be responsible to raise a child with loving/affection or not. The child's welfare is my mainly reason to consider women's choice/interest to become motherhood because I do not like to see child suffering...

I do not beleive in force/influence women's decision but advise them to see family counsellor. I would be glad to advise them if they ask for my view. I know from my past experience for force my sister to not abort her first child... I regretted for do that to her... and feel bad for my sister's children... Since that happened, I never, never, never force/influence women's decision/choice ever again... It make me pro-choice to respect women's decision.

Liebling:-))) · 05-27-2008, 07:07 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Liebling - I just waited for owner of her journal to answer my question and asked her with her permission for copying her answers to paste in here. It's about a baby can feel a pain at around 4 or 5 months of pregnancy. So... I hope she allow me to paste it in here but I feel so doubt she will. Wait see... Oh, yeah. I also can't find any website cos I don't remember where it is...

Don't worry and take time.

Yes, it would be nice to get permission from the owner. You know I am against partial birth abortion.

Quote:

I simply pointed that fetus is more human than just parasites (go see [prochoice link] yourself and pro-choicers still consider them as non-person). Same with an anti-child childfree person, sometimes, don't consider young children (under 10 or 5 of the age) as a person or human. To me, it just kill a tiny child because it stops heart beating.

Your link is not working?

But fetus and human is not same thing because fetus is only develop into human. fetus's brain is not develop until after birth. It's parents who feed infant's brain with loving talk, etc.

[quote]

Quote:

Yes, I am a "wanted" child. But, you don't get what I said. Since many pro-choicers always worry about "happy"/"prefect" childhood...

No, we never say anything about happy/prefect childhood but child's welfare. We beleive that child deserve a good childhood.

Quote:

THAT'S WHY A FEW IDIOT PROCHOICERS TOLD ME THAT MY MOM SHOULD ABORT ME BECAUSE OF MY LOUSY CHILDHOOD AND STUPID DISABLITY. IT'S NOT MATTER IF I AM WANTED OR NOT.

I'm sorry what and how you were being treated by ignorants like this.

Quote:

Personally, I hate "each child is wanted child and if not, kill it" subject. I don't want you to label me as wanted child, obviously, it got me wonder what if my mom don't want me. She would abort me for sure!

I do not label you as a wanted or unwanted child but answer your post.

Quote:

Let me ask you - for example, you had a bad childhood with your parent, but only if so, you feel don't dervses to be here because how your childhood was suffered, right? Don't you want to have an awful experience, right? If yes, then a whole of your family,

Answer to your question: Yes, I had severe horrible childhood experience. Do I deserve to have kind of life like this? My answer is NO... I often said to myself that I do wish to have wonderful parents when I look at my friends' warm and loving parents and comfortable and loving home. I envied them... I do not want my children through the same what I had that's why my hubby & I do not rush to start a family because we do not feel ready to be parents... We travelled half world for 7 years and then buy land to build our design country house... start family... and continue travelling with family... My mother often said to me when I was teenager that I should not rush to become mother yet.. and told me herself that she regretted to become mother at age 17... now my sister regretted to become mother at age 19... they both were unfit mothers... yes, they admitted to. Yes I forgave them and move on...

Quote:

(best) friends, teachers, ADers, and people are meaningless to YOU.

There're no comparison between parents and friends, ADers, etc... because I live with parents under the roof, not friends, teachers, ADer, etc.

Quote:

Thay/we are not really importance to you because of YOUR BAD CHILDHOOD should put in a viod, in order to save you from the vile experience. That's my point is "wanted-ness" vs "welcomed" is beyond illogical debate, so I am just "unwelcomed" to world because of my poor qaulity of life should be viod as (few) pro-choicers said so!

My mainly concern is child's welfare, period. I know what I am saying from my past experience... Yes I know I am not alone in the world but many people have similar experiences as me as well, that's why we support every's choice without influence/force them with their own decision/choice. It's their own interest, what they know from their own heart and feeling, not us.

Liebling:-))) · 05-27-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Just like slavery, whites don't see those africa americans as human being or person. Just slaves in their eyes of whites. To me, because I was shared by some pro-lifers' miscarriage experiences and they saw tiny children in their hands and those little ones are fully humans while those little ones are still developed until they are completed before at birth. Pro-choicers... just shrug as if they are not truly humans or non-persons at all so a female can have an another one...

Yes, I can understand because they did not ask for miscarriage after 13 weeks pregnancy.

No, it's not easy for women to decide to abort a fetus or give infant up for an adoption. We all know that fetus develop into human and tried to say that fetus and human is not same thing because fetus is not fully human being YET .

KarissaMann05 · 05-27-2008, 09:15 AM

[quote=Liebling:-)));989799][quote]

Don't worry and take time.

Yes, it would be nice to get permission from the owner. You know I am against partial birth abortion.

Your link is not working?

But fetus and human is not same thing because fetus is only develop into human. fetus's brain is not develop until after birth. It's parents who feed infant's brain with loving talk, etc.

No worries. Here!

Fixed: Visible Embryo 10 - 12 Weeks Post Ovulation

Heh, I still disagreed.

Quote:

No, we never say anything about happy/prefect childhood but child's welfare. We beleive that child deserve a good childhood.

No, I refered to *some* pro-choicers who only care about "prefect"/"happy" childhood. Not in here. Yeah, I can understand child deserve a good childhood. As for a "bad" childhood, grow how? Some children who have poor childhood, grow up and have a better life later or soon. Same with me, I personally had a lousy childhood but I grew up and my life get better a lot. Not stain a rot on my life forever. Example, look at Orpha (famous africa america woman on tv show) who had a "poor" qaulity of life and changed into a famous person. A poor qaulity of life do not mean it have to be in viod because of that, imo.

I'm sorry what and how you were being treated by ignorants like this.

I do not label you as a wanted or unwanted child but answer your post.

That's cool. They were just jerks. Aha
Ooh, thank you.

Answer to your question: Yes, I had severe horrible childhood experience. Do I deserve to have kind of life like this? My answer is NO... I often said to myself that I do wish to have wonderful parents when I look at my friends' warm and loving parents and comfortable and loving home. I envied them... I do not want my children through the same what I had that's why my hubby & I do not rush to start a family because we do not feel ready to be parents... We travelled half world for 7 years and then buy land to build our design country house... start family... and continue travelling with family... My mother often said to me when I was teenager that I should not rush to become mother yet.. and told me herself that she regretted to become mother at age 17... now my sister regretted to become mother at age 19... they both were unfit mothers... yes, they admitted to. Yes I forgave them and move on...

Ooh, I don't mean to. I just said an example.

Wow.. I'm very sorry for what happened to some of your family.
I'd better to give you a warm and supportive links, I assure you it's a good link and, maybe, it may help you. I'll find it whenever I have a time.

I'm so sorry..

a many

There're no comparison between parents and friends, ADers, etc... because I live with parents under the roof, not friends, teachers, ADer, etc.

No, if you are not here to save yourself from facing a pain expereience, then it will effect on people you know who. Understand?

My mainly concern is child's welfare, period. I know what I am saying from my past experience... Yes I know I am not alone in the world but many people have similar experiences as me as well, that's why we support every's choice without influence/force them with their own decision/choice. It's their own interest, what they know from their own heart and feeling, not us.

Agreed heartily. I sometime wish they should not worry about children's prefect childhood so much. But look forward for the best thing to do, for them. It annoyed me when they said "you should not be here"; "your brother should be aborted"; "blah blah" because of some people have a not-so-good life like mine. =/

KarissaMann05 · 05-27-2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Yes, I can understand because they did not ask for miscarriage after 13 weeks pregnancy.

No, it's not easy for women to decide to abort a fetus or give infant up for an adoption. We all know that fetus develop into human and tried to say that fetus and human is not same thing because fetus is not fully human being YET .

Okay, I understand. I still disagreed, sorry..

jillio · 05-27-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Hillary Clinton is for pro-choice, and I am still voting for her, I don't know what are you trying to prove.

I know what is WIC, Why do you think I have two sons?

Well, I would think that you have 2 sons for the same reason that anyone else who has children has kids. You had sex, got pregnant, and gave birth to them.

I am not trying to "prove" anything. I am illustrating the fact that the vast majpority of those who are very vocal anti-abortion have absolutely no concern for that fetus once it is born, and therefore, have no courage of their conviction. Their whole focus is some musguided attempt to stop abortion without any effort whatsoever that would create change in the social structure that makes abortion a viable alternative for many women.

View Poll Results: Do you support abortion as
a legal?	33	63.46%
an illegal?	19	36.54%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

05-27-2008, 06:40 AM	#343 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,074	Hillary Clinton is for pro-choice, and I am still voting for her, I don't know what are you trying to prove. I know what is WIC, Why do you think I have two sons? __________________

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05-26-2008, 01:31 PM	#332 (permalink)
Reba Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 17,287	Many "anti-abortion" individuals and groups support unwed mother homes and programs, with their dollars and time. They provide a safe, clean environment for them to live in, schooling and job training, parenting classes, baby necessities, counseling, transportation for doctor visits, etc. Many "anti-abortion" families adopt or foster babies born to unwed mothers. Many non-profit daycares are run and supported by "anti-abortion" groups. On the other hand, just because some "pro-abortion" individuals say that their position is motivated only by altruism for women and children, doesn't mean that they all provide support to the moms who "choose" to give birth rather than abort. Let me ask, "Would you vote for a candidate who proposed universal health care for all children, government subsidies for child care that would allow poor mothers to train and become employed, government subsidized housing, reductions in the costs of post secondary education, and an improved foster care system if he was also anti-abortion on demand on the abortion issue? Or would you refuse him/her your vote based only on the fact that he/she was anti-abortion on demand?"