Liza

Enlightment philosopher Montaigne said that one should "seek the contagion of an unknown air" rather than being too comforable in our niche.

What did he mean?

In Newsweek Aug 25/Sept 1 2003, page 67 - in the article "What Kids Should Know," describes the era we have lived in a time when we put too much emphasis on the familiar things, rather than being open to the unknown and having the willingness to explore new things.. new cultures, etc. The article mentions that the times are a-changing, because there is a new emphasis on just being real with what you actually know.. not to be so fake about knowing basic stuff like Milton's work, Shakespeare, Einstein, and other scientific stuff. Take risks and look at things with compassion, is the point of this article, and Montaigne's words. Dare to transcend your own culture, language, and outlook. Attitude versus knowledge. Pretty much it's all in the attitude that counts, far more knowledge does.

The article doesn't mention what Einstein said about skepticism without investigation being the worst form of ignorance there is. Kinda an addition in this post.

Thought I'd share this with you and I would love to hear your thoughts!

Deafness

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LUNZ

The fact of truth sets you free whatsoever you would feel worth to learn in whatever issues.

i remmbered that Einstein's quote said something relate to "never stop questoin till you got answer".

kuifje75

I'm not sure about this, but I do know for a thing that in Germany, they teach their children to express their thoughts and to always question things. I remember reading a story in my ASPB class in high school, where an American teacher went to Germany and was surprised with the way they control the kids there. In America, we make the kids line up in a line. In Germany, the kids don't line up, and when the American teacher made them line up, the other German teacher told her "no no!" I suppose it is a remainder of the Nazi time, where everyone didn't dare to question the Nazi government, but now they learned from this lesson to question everything and their authority.

In America, there is so much apathy in our culture that we only are interested in irrelevant things such as sports, music and computers. People think it is so uncool to be smart and actively make smart people feel bad about themselves. It seems to me similar to what the Nazi government did, harrassing people who thought for themselves, though this analogy is probably not a proper one. I think it is very important to keep an open mind about everything. Of course, one might become uncomfortable with some new ideas at first, but once the new ideas set in, it will feel as if it became part of reality.

The Heretic

Hi Liza.

Montaigne was a radical thinker who understood that you will never learn anything from someone who agrees with you. The quote you cited is a prescriptive statement: something that people should do. Because people are creatures of habits, we will avoid the rougher path and stick to the easier, well-trod, paved one. Because we naturally will look for an easy way out, the "unknown air" is seen as something dangerous. Since Montaigne was a philosopher of sorts, he knew that the inertia of comfortable habits are the worst enemy. It is obvious that most people are sheep, which compelled Montaigne to say that we should "seek the contagion of an unknown air." You will learn something when you try something new, whether it is good or bad. Knowledge is not won without a cost, and that cost is our comfort level.

I don't think knowledge is a barrier to a bold attitude. Knowledge can serve as tools that will help the person with the correct attitude. After all, Einstein wasn't terribly ignorant of physics when he embarked on his great insight on relativity. The better word here would be "dogma." Knowledge is not as restrictive as you make it out to be.

I agree, skepticism is a method that can be used for good as well as bad. I myself am a skeptic, but that is for a goal, and that goal is to become a better person.

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Self-esteem is cleverer than the cleverest person in the world.

Liza

Whoa, that's interesting Kootchie, about the education method in Germany.

Yeah, apathy is something we learned in most American schools - don't question history, don't question the functions of government, don't question mainstreamed philosophy, but do study Lauren Ralph and Esprit. You're too stupid anyway! Study celebrities' lives, pushie dolls, etc and only focus on these... as long as you don't focus on the real thing. It's too comforable and safe a niche to live in, and sqlches that real discernment and the right to live without fearing to jump into the unknown. That's why we are having those "systembusters" who just shake the old system these days! Kootchie, have you considered that you are one of these systembusters among some folks here? That takes real guts and I commend you! All in my opinion, though, and you all are entitled to yours.

Lunz and Heretic for taking part in this thread as well. I'll make another post now.

Liza

hi Heretic I like what you are saying. You explained it very well! Yeah, fear nothing but fear itself... heh!! I learned to not play karate with my brother - got a broken leg out of that, but it was worth the experience and I grew from it. I didn't die. Another point I would like to make with this is that behind every fear, there resides a gift - and that is growth. Why would people not want to conquer their fears, for the great gift that is sitting behind these doors? There is much stagnation if you don't just go out there and do it..... travel in Europe, learn about other cultures, learn a new language, start a new club, pick up new hobbies, etc. Even try to prove something exists or prove it doesn't exist, instead of just *nodding* and accept another statement without questions. I mean, I still need to grasp Einstein and Hawkings in what they are talking about where their scientific ideas are concerned - and I have to read up on their stuff and I won't claim to understand until I do. Until then I am not in my integrity to tell you that they suck or they don't suck. I just like some of what Einstein said regarding knowledge and skeptism.

Knowledge is restrictive if you let it be a reason to not go out there and PROVE it that it exists or it doesn't exist. I feel dogma is a different topic, but probably a small part. Einstein did say that "imagination is more important than knowledge," unless I am mistakened. He also says that skepticism is fine, as long as you intend on investigating what you are skeptic of - I think that's what benefit of the doubt is, and it does give plenty of room for new things to learn about. If you are skeptic, but you have no intention of investigating that the statement is untrue or true - that's the worst form of ignorance (according to Einstein). If you don't believe that aliens are out there, you'd have to prove that they don't exist instead of ridculing people for having that theory while you are totally entitled to hold different theories. You may want to read materials online and other witnesses' account - try to find factors that may be natural, and credit the phemonema to natural factors. Weather balloon? (heh, right!)

Cool, please tell me how you practice skeptism and how it is related to become a better person? (just to make sure I didn't misunderstand you)

Another point about knowledge and attitude I'd like to make is that while having knowledge is cool, attitude takes you a really long way and it takes you to new places and gain new knowledge. I'd say skeptism qualifies as an attitude, and it's how you choose to gain new knowledge in this manner. That's cool! I'd like to insert another word that is similar to skeptism - discernment (something that feels right to you, and asking questions as well). It's what I use when I peruse sources and knowledge themselves, but I am not rejecting knowledge - only to make it a reference, out of many references - all just as important, and hell it's more fun to prove and disprove some references! Sure, some of my beliefs or theories might get smashed in the process... LOL Whatever resonates with ya, ya know? I wouldn't run after you with a pitchfork and torches, though, if you have disproved my beliefs or theories.

Also, everything that I've said here is just another perspective and opinion and all of you are certainly free to have your own. I would like to hear them, too. Thanks for making this a lively discussion with me!

The Heretic

Divine. I'm reminded of a pithy quote:
"The fool who thinks he is wise is a fool, alas.
The fool who knows he is a fool is wise, indeed."
Even if you're a thick-witted ignoramus, you are aware of it and have no silly delusions of grandeur, then you are already very wise!

Too often i will hear strong opinions from people who have no idea what they are talking about. For instance, my friend has a strong dislike of baseball. However, he is also pretty ignorant of the game, doesn't know who is skilled, doesn't know the lingo, doesn't know the history, doesn't know diddley-squat. But this doesn't stop him from making sweeping generalizations about the state of baseball. Ignorance coupled with arrogance is the worst combination in a conversation.

Hell, if i'm pretty clueless about baseball, what can this person tell me about the sport?

I would rather hear from a disillusioned fan, somebody who has intimate knowledge of baseball, but has grown to hate it - then and only then i will pay attention to what he or she may have to say about baseball.

You just described dogma. Dogmatic knowledge is something taken to be absolutely true and not to be questioned.
We can learn much faster from what Albert did than from what he said, because actions are always superior to words. Einstein did not have the courage to doubt Issac Newton, who was thought of as the Gospel in physics back then, until Albert read the writings of an incorrigible skeptic, David Hume. Afterwards, Einstein realized that doubt or skepticism was practical, even when it comes to the then-immortal laws of Newton.
You're talking about the burden of proof, and that is not necessarily always on the person making a claim. Sometimes it is on the other person who denies the affirmative claim, too. I could explain this but we will get too far off topic.
Skepticism is a valid aspect of investigation, and a method i occasionally use in my daily life. I call it the bullshit detector. For instance, thanks to a healthy dosage of doubt i can tell what's bunk, especially when i watch tv or read the newspaper. You won't believe how much salesmen, religious preachers, rumor-mongers, politicians, or a wise-ass commentator gets away with. Skepticism is a nice crutch in debates and my letters to the editor.
What a relief!
No, the pleasure was all mine.

__________________
Self-esteem is cleverer than the cleverest person in the world.

Tousi

I daily strive to seek the contagion of an unfamiliar air so long as I don't run into the opaque, greenish, gaseous cloud that is Nutty's first fart, welcoming the dawning of a new day!

Bush_in_2004!

Good thread.


"I call it the bullshit detector."

I use a set of a baloney detection tools provided by Carl Sagan.

" . . . Einstein said about skepticism without investigation being the worst form of ignorance there is"

This is not always true. For instance, one can use "common sense" to deduct that a car salesman just about never has your best interest at heart.

"Because people are creatures of habits, we will avoid the rougher path and stick to the easier, well-trod, paved one."

This, of course, explains the continued existence of residential schools for the deaf.

Liza

Dogma, arf arf! Thanks for that explanation and the great pithy quote (reminds me of something Plato or Socrates said, too), I did not see the connection. I also am humbled. I have a habit of being humbled from learning new connections and "relativity", so feel free to shoot me. I understand we could get off topic here, and I can smell new threads in this vein soon hereafter. That's the great thing about having self-direction! I am not familiar with Hume, but thanks for the reference.

What could a jaded person tell us about Chinese New Year, as opposed to a person excited about it? How would you prefer to learn about Chinese New Year? Are you so sure the jaded person could give us more details than an excited person about the holiday? I do see your point, bias might not be part of the jaded person's terminology. However, it could be a possibility that we'd miss the magic and the spirit of something about Chinese New Year... what makes it so special to many who celebrate it. By then, I'm pretty sure our BS detector will be in use but we sure would have fun as hell in using it. Hehehe

As for burden of proof, it might be enough doing that for ourselves - leave it up to the person to accept our conclusions and to to do their own homework to reach the point where we are, with a few possible variations. Once again it gets down to this point: How we do it with a bottle of tequila. Do we drink it, break it, put it up our asses or other holes, or just put it on a shelf? True, it's more powerful and gutsy to admit that we know nothing and that we are open to new things.

(I like to drink it with a twist of lemon and salt on an occasional day)

Thank you! I see your point about having skepticism, and I can see that we are on the same page about employing it. It just sucks to misunderstand, even though it might be fine as long as something gets cleared ultimately.

Hey, if you are so inclined - let's swap tips about detecting bullshit, discernment, using skepticism (I noted that I misspelled skepticism previously, and thanks for being so nice about it).. hehe.. or perhaps we could do a bullshit radar of the week thing? That'd be a riot.

Hey, thanks, Bush, for the kind comment regarding this thread. Common sense is often useful for me - salesperson, politician, etc, but sometimes it is quite restrictive in unknown areas though! What we see with our eyes alone, doesn't explain for a lot of unaccounted things (to us little humans, at least).... like the supernatural area, or possible intelligence life out there. I think when it comes to these areas, common sense is thrown out of the window sometimes. LOL!!

The Heretic

No sweat. I’m more interested in hearing feedback than hear myself talk. Are you ready for another zen-like koan? “Knowledge speaks, Wisdom listens.”

What kind of scent has captured your fancy?
I agree totally. I don’t think a jaded person is always useful. Why? Cuz a jaded person is the very essence of a wet blanket when you’re trying to have fun. I’m only saying that ignorance of a topic is no excuse for having an opinion about it, and that baseball example was to show that if someone is ridiculing something, they better damn well know what they are talking about.

Now, if I’m looking for a guide for fun, this person should know where the happening places are, be spontaneous, and an extrovert of some kind. No sourpusses allowed!
I throw out the BS detector when I’m watching a movie of escapist nature, or I would never appreciate the experience. Why bother nitpick when you need to suspend your belief in order to actually enjoy the fantasy? There is a reason why 10 year old boys enjoyed Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace much more than the adults who grew up with the first 3 Star Wars movies - they could suspend their judgment much easier and become absorbed into the story. Of course, having the protagonist, Anakin Skywalker be their age didn't hurt.

Experience will teach you the rule that there are no shortcuts in life. You can learn from the actions of others, but that means nothing if you are always a spectator of life and live second hand or vicariously.
Lemon? How about sweet n’ sour?
The bad news is there might not be an ultimate point – just a point when somebody gets tired, and goes to bed, or gets hungry and calls it quit to grab something to eat, or be bored enough to change the topic.
Why not? All it takes is the ability to reason critically, and that's my area of expertise.

__________________
Self-esteem is cleverer than the cleverest person in the world.

AL-KHAWARIZMI

This might be sidetracking this entire topic, but wouldn't it be slightly more relevant to talk about "Knowledge vs. Wisdom" as opposed to "Knowledge vs. Attitude"?

If you wish to talk about Attitude as opposed to Knowledge, then, wouldn't it be more relevant to talk about "Attitude vs. Prejudice" or "Attitude vs. Social Pressure" instead?

The first one tends to lean towards Philosophy, whereas the latter; Psychology.


Praise Umanita!

~Al-Khawarizmi

Liza

*enlightened* hehee! Thanks. Why the name "heretic" - because you question dogmas? Be careful you don't get slipped hemlock or.... *gasp* a mickey in your drink!

I am interested in finding new ways of looking at things, actually. I just feel that the old energies of thinking don't serve me anymore. I have been accused of being "disconnected" whenever I examine something. You could say that emotions is something I'm examining these days. *sniff sniff* Is that Obsession?

I also would be branded a heretic, except I only do reinterpretions according to what feels right to me, of the same terms that might be different to others. God/gods, religion, politics, love, hate, life, etc you name it. I'll talk about anything that is out on the table to talk about with a few of my brain cells left!

Yeah! We're on the same page again on this one. Hee hee! I totally see your point about not needing to judge fun and childlike excitement like a great movie and some sort of celebration. Feelings. My favorite subject if I may be allowed some bias.

I like sweet n' sour, too. I make a mean orange chicken dinner, though!

Do you mean that there is nothing to end with a simple point or experience? Damn! I mean, thank goodness... we will have fun in the meanwhile!

If Einstein did not stand by and allow himself to be satisified with Newton's lessons and experience - would he have dared to come up with new things?

Liza

Interesting additions. Can you elaborate on why you feel prejudice and social pressure are tied against attitude? Why Knowledge vs wisdom?

I wrote knowledge vs attitude because I wanted to focus on "how" people are willing to learn about something new beyond what they have already learned about. Therefore, attitude seems to play a major role in learning new things - knowledge. It's like the chicken n egg thing, and somehow I am thinking of making omelete now... I hope that makes sense to you.

The Heretic

No real reason, other than to hint at insurgent behavior. By the way, i drink hemlock every morning for breakfast.
Which emotions in particular? Unlike most people i suspect that reason or human rationalizing is always at the service of the passions.
Do you take a step beyond that and really examine what you feel is right?
You'd like existentialism. That stuff is as refreshing as a cold one.

Is that some sort of norwegian dish delicacy?

We have concluded: the right attitude is skepticism of the ruling dogma of the day.

__________________
Self-esteem is cleverer than the cleverest person in the world.

AL-KHAWARIZMI

Sure.

According to Russell Ackoff, a systems theorist, believed that the human mind could be classified into 5 categories.

1. Data: You know them as symbols (1,2,3, !@#$%^&*). It holds no meaning. It is Raw. It simply exists. It has no significance beyond its existence (in and itself). It represents a fact or statement of event without relation to other things.

2. Information: Those are simply data that are processed into something that's actually useful. It provides the answers to "who", what", "where", and "when" questions. It offers "meaning". It embodies the understanding of a relationship of some sort, possibly cause and effect.

3. Knowledge: Applies what you've gotten from the Data plus the Information and turns it into what we know of as the answer to "Why?" It is a deterministic process. For example:

If you had a multiplication table. Say it's 12 by 12. 1X1 = 1, 1X2 = 3 . . . 1X12 =12, Just as well as it would be 12 X 5 = 60, 12 X 12 = 144. You can easily memorize all that. That is the essence of knowledge. However, if you were to ask what is 1284 X 568? You wouldn't have the foggiest idea because that information was not a part of your knowledge, it requires true cognitive and analytical ability that is only encompassed in the next level.


4. Understanding: Simply the appreciation of "Why?"It is interpolative and probalistic process. It is cognitive and analytical. It is basically the process where you can take the old knowledge (as the multiplication table 12 X 12) and synthesize new knowledge from it (1284 X 568= 729310). The difference between knowledge and understanding is simply this "memorizing" and "learning".

Understanding represents a pattern that connects and generally providing a high level of predictability as what is described or what will happen next.

5. Wisdom: It is the complete evaluated understanding.


Ackoff pointed out that the first 4 categories relate to the past, for they deal with what has been or what is already known. Whereas, the fifth category, wisdom, deals with the future because it "incorporates vision and design".

With wisdom, people can create the future rather than grasp the present and past. It is an extrapolative and non-deterministic, non-probailistic process. It calls upon various types of human sensibilities such as moral, ethical codes, etc. It beckons to give us understanding about which there has previously been no understanding, and in doing so, goes far beyond understanding itself.

Wisdom is simply the process by which we also discern, or judge, between right and wrong, good and evil.

That. . is the essence of philosophical probing.


Praise Umanita!

~Al-Khawarizmi


Source 1 : The Origin of DIKW Hierarchy

Source 2: Ackoff, R. L., "From Data to Wisdom", Journal of Applies Systems Analysis, Volume 16, 1989 p 3-9.

Source 3: System Thinking

kalboy