Pro-choice and death).....(only pro-choice and death comment) - Page 3

jiro123 · 05-15-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If that is a true story, it would have been a therapeutic abortion. Therapeutic abortion has no place in the discussion of choice. That is limited to elective abortion.

a what? therapeutic abortion? never heard of it. I just did a quick google...

Therapeutic abortion is defined as the termination of pregnancy before fetal viability in order to preserve maternal health. In its broadest definition, therapeutic abortion can be performed to (1) save the life of the mother, (2) preserve the health of the mother, (3) terminate a pregnancy that would result in the birth of a child with defects incompatible with life or associated with significant morbidity, (4) terminate a nonviable pregnancy, or (5) selectively reduce a multifetal pregnancy.

I think it was elective abortion because she just realized she's unable to care for it financially. I don't recall reading the part where baby is "defective." I'll look for the story.

jiro123 · 05-15-2008, 03:03 PM

ah-ha... it's called partial-birth abortion. I can't find specific article relating to what I talked about because it was a long time ago but you can google "partial-birth abortion" and you'll see plenty of stories told by ex-abortionists. Seems like half of reasons are - They just couldn't care for it financially and other half of reasons are due to baby's mental retardation.

Cheri · 05-15-2008, 03:23 PM

Thank you, jiro123. You're a big help.

Abortion facts

Quote:

Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse from Dayton, Ohio, assisted Dr. Haskell in a Partial Birth Abortion on a 26-1/2 week (over 6 months) pre-born baby boy. She testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee (on 11/17/95) about what she witnessed.

Quote:

The reality is, this gruesome method of killing partially born babies is done many thousands of times a year. Abortionist, Dr. McMahon, admitted in 1995 to performing over 2000 partial birth abortions.

Partial Birth Abortion

jillio · 05-15-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

a what? therapeutic abortion? never heard of it. I just did a quick google...

Therapeutic abortion is defined as the termination of pregnancy before fetal viability in order to preserve maternal health. In its broadest definition, therapeutic abortion can be performed to (1) save the life of the mother, (2) preserve the health of the mother, (3) terminate a pregnancy that would result in the birth of a child with defects incompatible with life or associated with significant morbidity, (4) terminate a nonviable pregnancy, or (5) selectively reduce a multifetal pregnancy.

I think it was elective abortion because she just realized she's unable to care for it financially. I don't recall reading the part where baby is "defective." I'll look for the story.

Yes, please do look for the story. Elective abortions cannot be performed at the stage you indicated. That is reserved for therapeutic abortions only, and that has been the law for many, many years.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

ah-ha... it's called partial-birth abortion. I can't find specific article relating to what I talked about because it was a long time ago but you can google "partial-birth abortion" and you'll see plenty of stories told by ex-abortionists. Seems like half of reasons are - They just couldn't care for it financially and other half of reasons are due to baby's mental retardation.

Partial birth abortions, or second tri-mester abortions are not performed because a parent decides that they cannot care for a child financially. That decision is limited to 1st trimester, elective abortion only. Likewise with mental retardation. For a second trimester abortion that fetus has to be found to have birth defects incompatible with life. In other words, even if the pregnancy is carried to term, the child would not survive.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:04 PM

You guys are making it sound as if a woman can decide at any point in her preganancy that she just doesn't want to be pregnant anymore and can go out and get an abortion as a convenience. You are totally ignoring the laws and the restrictions that are in place to insure that doesn't happen.

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes, please do look for the story. Elective abortions cannot be performed at the stage you indicated. That is reserved for therapeutic abortions only, and that has been the law for many, many years.

Maybe you should amend that statement to "Elective abortions cannot be performed legally at the stage you indicated."

Some people will do anything if the price is right. Laws don't stop the greedy.

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You guys are making it sound as if a woman can decide at any point in her preganancy that she just doesn't want to be pregnant anymore and can go out and get an abortion as a convenience. You are totally ignoring the laws and the restrictions that are in place to insure that doesn't happen.

Abortionists can ignore the laws now just like they did when abortion wasn't generally legal. What makes you think they all follow the law now?

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Maybe you should amend that statement to "Elective abortions cannot be performed legally at the stage you indicated."

Some people will do anything if the price is right. Laws don't stop the greedy.

Which is exactly why overturning Roe v Wade will not stop abortions. Likewise, those performing illegal abortions are subject to prosecution and prison time.

jiro123 · 05-15-2008, 04:08 PM

I'm so lost..... all I can say is - I support women's choice to have abortion but should not be performed in late trimester unless the baby has health condition that he will die shortly after birth or if the pregnancy will cause the mother's death. that's all I'll say for now.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

I'm so lost..... all I can say is - I support women's choice to have abortion but should not be performed in late trimester unless the baby has health condition that he will die shortly after birth or if the pregnancy will cause the mother's death. that's all I'll say for now.

And that is exactly the way the law spells it out as well.

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Which is exactly why overturning Roe v Wade will not stop abortions. Likewise, those performing illegal abortions are subject to prosecution and prison time.

The threat of prosecution doesn't stop someone who wants the money.

jiro123 · 05-15-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And that is exactly the way the law spells it out as well.

oh. I see.. I guess everything works out then.. based on what I just read in here... are you saying that there IS a law saying abortion cannot be performed in late trimester but people and abortionists do it anyway in America??

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Abortionists can ignore the laws now just like they did when abortion wasn't generally legal. What makes you think they all follow the law now?

I never said they all follow the law to the letter. There are other medical practitioners who do not follow the law to the letter, either. That is why malpractice insurance rates are so ridiculas.

But, at least the laws are in place now to protect. And a patient has recourse.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The threat of prosecution doesn't stop someone who wants the money.

Exactly. Which, again, is why overturning Roe v Wade will not stop abortions. At least when you go to a clinic, you know you have someone doing the procedure that possesses a medical liscense. Beats the heck out of an elderly midwife with a dirty coathanger in some rat infested tenement.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

oh. I see.. I guess everything works out then.. based on what I just read in here... are you saying that there IS a law saying abortion cannot be performed in late trimester but people and abortionists do it anyway in America??

The law is very restrictive regarding the second trimester abortions, and you posted those restrictions earlier. People do many things that are illegal in America. There are stories that 2nd trimester abortions are being performed illegally. But if they are being done at the rate some would have us believe, why aren't these physicians being prosecuted?

Cheri · 05-15-2008, 04:15 PM

Did anyone bothered to read the links I provided?

jiro123 · 05-15-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Beats the heck out of an elderly midwife with a dirty coathanger in some rat infested tenement.

Sounds like mexican hospital

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I never said they all follow the law to the letter. There are other medical practitioners who do not follow the law to the letter, either. That is why malpractice insurance rates are so ridiculas.

Performing an abortion several months after the cut off date is hardly a minor tweak of the letter of the law.

Quote:

But, at least the laws are in place now to protect. And a patient has recourse.

If an abortionist performs an "illegal" procedure on a patient, at the patient's request, what kind of legal recourse does the patient have?

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Exactly. Which, again, is why overturning Roe v Wade will not stop abortions. At least when you go to a clinic, you know you have someone doing the procedure that possesses a medical liscense. Beats the heck out of an elderly midwife with a dirty coathanger in some rat infested tenement.

Not necessarily.

Examples:

"KS House Fails to Override Veto on Clinic Licensing"
Operation Rescue » Blog Archive » KS House Fails to Override Veto on Clinic Licensing

"Many New Jersey Abortion Clinics Do Not Receive Required Biennial Inspections"
Many New Jersey Abortion Clinics Do Not Receive Required Biennial Inspections, Press Atlantic City Reports

"Planned Parenthood Files Suit Against Missouri Law That Would Require Abortion Clinics To Upgrade Facilities"
Planned Parenthood Files Suit Against Missouri Law That Would Require Abortion Clinics To Upgrade Facilities

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:32 PM

The letter of the law?

Quote:

Florida Closes Clinics and Suspends License of Notorious Abortionist

By Peter J. Smith

ORLANDO, Florida, August 17, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The State of Florida has suspended the license of a notorious Florida abortionist for performing illegal late term abortions and ordered two abortion clinics shut down Wednesday.

On Wednesday, Florida’s health secretary ordered the suspension of abortionist James Pendergraft after state investigators discovered that Pendergraft performed an abortion on a woman 28 weeks pregnant in July 2005, and gave her controlled substances without a proper license.

The state investigation also found that two of Pendergraft’s Orlando abortion clinics were also performing illegal third trimester abortions, and spurred the health secretary to issue an emergency order suspending Pendergraft’s license stating that he showed "a flagrant disregard for the laws of the state of Florida and a willingness to endanger the lives and health of pregnant patients."

Florida state law forbids the abortionists from performing third trimester abortions outside of hospitals.

The state’s order closes the Orlando Women’s Center and the EPOC Clinic, although three other abortion clinics owned by Pendergraft shall remain open. The state’s emergency suspension order prevents Pendergraft from practicing in Florida until the state Board of Medicine takes final action. Pendergraft is appealing the rulings.

Pendergraft has gained a history of notoriety in Florida, ever since he first was jailed for 7 months in 2001 on charges of conspiring to extort millions of dollars from Marion County. In 2005, Pendergraft’s abortion clinic employees refused to heed the pleading of a young mother to call 9-1-1, who wanted help to save her born-alive child, who survived an abortion. Instead, still attached to the umbilical cord, the child died in the arms of his distraught young mother, who rocked and cooed him for the duration of his 11 minutes of life amid the squalor of the clinic’s restroom.

The Florida Board of Medicine considered revoking Pendergraft’s license for the treatment of the mother, Angele, and the sanitation violations of the clinic; however members voted to dismiss the case in April.

Florida Closes Clinics and Suspends License of Notorious Abortionist

Reba · 05-15-2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Kansas Investigation into Child Rape Blocked by Two Secret Abortion Clinics
Supreme Court sealed the names of abortion mills fighting AG Kline over late-term abortion records

WICHITA, Kansas., February 25, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline has asked for the records of 90 women who had abortions after 22 weeks gestation at two unnamed abortion clinics in an investigation into reports of child sex abuse of minor girls. Currently, abortion clinics are exempt from reporting child sex abuse, even if they become aware of it. The two clinics, whose names have been sealed by the Kansas Supreme Court, are blocking the release of the records citing privacy concerns of their patients.

"Rape is a serious crime and when a 10, 11, or 12 year old is pregnant – they have been raped under Kansas law," said Kline in a press release dated February 24, 2005. "The child's privacy is always protected…no one has the right to rape or victimize a child or woman whether in private or public. There are two things child predators want: access to children and secrecy and as Attorney General, I am bound and determined to give them neither."

Operation Rescue believes that one of the unnamed clinics is late-term abortionist George Tiller's Women's Health Care Services in Wichita.

"We can put two and two together," said Operation Rescue president Troy Newman. "Tiller brags about being the largest late term abortion facility outside Communist China. Certainly no one in Kansas does as many late-term abortions as Tiller. We fully support the Attorney General's investigation and pray that he will gain access to these records and catch the child rapists that these clinics are covering for."

"We see very, very young girls going into Tiller's abortion mill on a regular basis and have reported this," said Cheryl Sullenger, a sidewalk counselor who offers help to women considering abortions outside Tiller's infamous abortion clinic. "Some appear to be as young as 10 or 11 years old. Whether you support abortion or not, everyone should be shocked that these clinics are not only protecting child sexual predators, but are also enabling them to continue to abuse by keeping their dirty little secrets."

Kansas Investigation into Child Rape Blocked by Two Secret Abortion Clinics

jillio · 05-15-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Did anyone bothered to read the links I provided?

Yes.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The letter of the law?

Florida Closes Clinics and Suspends License of Notorious Abortionist

Quite obviously, this man had violations relating to his practice of medicine across the board. Why didn't he have a liscense to dispense controlled substances. Most likely explanation is that his liscense to dispense had been revoked or suspended by the medical board due to violations in prescribing. While I agree that this man should not be practicing medicine in any capacity, due to ethical and legal violations, there are practitioners who do not perform abortions but prey on the public in other ways. Remember the "diet doctors" of recent history? What about the surgeons who perform surgery for which they are unqualified and ill trained, thus resulting in patient deaths? What about the general physicians who are guilty of malpractice for stepping outside their scope of practice? You can find cases of malfeasance in any sub-specialty of medicine. It does not just occur with those pratitioners that perform abortion.

jillio · 05-15-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Kansas Investigation into Child Rape Blocked by Two Secret Abortion Clinics

Operation Rescue and sidewalk counselors: there's a telling phrase or two. Physicans in any capacity are mandatory reporters, and can loose their license for not reporting suspected child abuse of any form. Where the confidentiality comes in is releasing the names and any details of medical treatment received.

The attorney general rquested the medical records of 90 women. No where does it state that any of these women were 10, 11, or 12 years of age. And the records were no doubt suponaed to ascertain whether there was a medical basis for an abotion performed at 22 weeks or later.

I believe the statement "some appear to be as young as 10 or 12" is an important distinction.

Reba · 05-15-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Operation Rescue and sidewalk counselors: there's a telling phrase or two. Physicans in any capacity are mandatory reporters, and can loose their license for not reporting suspected child abuse of any form. Where the confidentiality comes in is releasing the names and any details of medical treatment received.

The attorney general rquested the medical records of 90 women. No where does it state that any of these women were 10, 11, or 12 years of age. And the records were no doubt suponaed to ascertain whether there was a medical basis for an abotion performed at 22 weeks or later.

Yes, they were investigating the late-term abortions.

Quote:

05-15-2008, 04:15 PM	#77 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: All I wanted was a white knight with a good heart, soft touch, fast horse, ride me off into the sunset Posts: 20,160	Did anyone bothered to read the links I provided? __________________

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05-15-2008, 03:03 PM	#62 (permalink)
jiro123 >:{ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,878	ah-ha... it's called partial-birth abortion. I can't find specific article relating to what I talked about because it was a long time ago but you can google "partial-birth abortion" and you'll see plenty of stories told by ex-abortionists. Seems like half of reasons are - They just couldn't care for it financially and other half of reasons are due to baby's mental retardation.

05-15-2008, 04:04 PM	#66 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,154	You guys are making it sound as if a woman can decide at any point in her preganancy that she just doesn't want to be pregnant anymore and can go out and get an abortion as a convenience. You are totally ignoring the laws and the restrictions that are in place to insure that doesn't happen.

05-15-2008, 04:08 PM	#70 (permalink)
jiro123 >:{ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,878	I'm so lost..... all I can say is - I support women's choice to have abortion but should not be performed in late trimester unless the baby has health condition that he will die shortly after birth or if the pregnancy will cause the mother's death. that's all I'll say for now.