The Death Penalty - Page 7

Wokamuka · 04-20-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

That is a recent revision, and it has failed miserably.

The fact that prison is to be a rehabilitative experience is quickly condemned leads me to understand you a bit better. Let's be honest with ourselves and stop calling them "prisons" and call them for what they are: "human warehouses" or "human landfills."

Let's quickly fill them up with obvious intent of keeping them in there . . . out of sight; out of mind. Sweeping dust under the carpet doesn't get rid of the dust.

The act of punishment is given in the hopes of rehabilitation. Punishing a child is done in the expectation that the child does not do it again (those living in reality call that rehabilitation). If you are punishing, knowing that no good will come out of it, then you are forcing society (not just the victims) to bear burden (i.e., your faint of heart) and suffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Comparing a traffic violation to execution is fallicous.

It wasn't a comparison. It was an application of the same logic.

The only argument that is moot would be the allowance of double standards. "Feel good" justice only works when you focus on personal standards with complete disregard for the greater good.

I find it curious that you, clearly, believe that there are those who cannot be rehabilitated. Would you believe that society should subsidize evil?

Reba · 04-20-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Whether he was on death row or not is irrelevent. This is proof of the errors made in our jsutice system. If our system is subject to errors that wrongly convict innocent individuals, then to risk making that error in the case of a death penalty is too great a risk to take.

The topic of this thread is "The Death Penalty". The appeals process and sentencing requirements are not the same for death penalty and non-death penalty cases.

Reba · 04-20-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Execution does not do anything to remedy the suffering. It simply satisfies a need for revenge.

Not true.

There are many victim families who do not seek revenge, and yet are relieved when the criminal is executed. It definitely relieves them of the agony of repeated appeal and parole hearings, and the fear of reprisal. They no longer have to read in the papers the words, or see on TV the face the killer while he's being interviewed by a sympathetic reporter.

I don't know where some of you get this image of revenge-thirsty victims. It is entirely possible and probable for victim families to want justice without wanting revenge.

It's terrible when people are wrongly convicted. But it's even more terrible that victims are not getting the support and justice that they deserve.

Banjo · 04-20-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

It's terrible when people are wrongly convicted. But it's even more terrible that victims are not getting the support and justice that they deserve.

How is it more terrible for victims not to be served justice than it is to execute an innocent man? In both cases, they died and both of them are just as innocent. I'm sorry, but I just don't think either one is more terrible than the other.

A life shouldn't be valued more than the other.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The topic of this thread is "The Death Penalty". The appeals process and sentencing requirements are not the same for death penalty and non-death penalty cases.

And I have stated in this thread that my main objection to the death penalty is the fact that we risk executing an innocent individual because of error. I am supporting that by showing that error does occur. If it occurs in the instance of a non-death penalty case, then we risk it occurrance with a death penalty case. The appeals process is lengthier for death penalty cases, to be sure, but the appeals process is no guarantee that evidence will come to light prior to execution. The case I just cited, the man spent 26 years in prison on a charge that another confessed to. He exhausted his appeals, and still lost 26 years of his life paying for a crime he did not commit. Given that this charge involved a murder, he could have just as easily paid with his life, rather than only loosing 26 years of it.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not true.

There are many victim families who do not seek revenge, and yet are relieved when the criminal is executed. It definitely relieves them of the agony of repeated appeal and parole hearings, and the fear of reprisal. They no longer have to read in the papers the words, or see on TV the face the killer while he's being interviewed by a sympathetic reporter.

I don't know where some of you get this image of revenge-thirsty victims. It is entirely possible and probable for victim families to want justice without wanting revenge.

It's terrible when people are wrongly convicted. But it's even more terrible that victims are not getting the support and justice that they deserve.

Ah, but the question is, what kind of justice do they seek?

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wokamuka

The fact that prison is to be a rehabilitative experience is quickly condemned leads me to understand you a bit better. Let's be honest with ourselves and stop calling them "prisons" and call them for what they are: "human warehouses" or "human landfills."

Let's quickly fill them up with obvious intent of keeping them in there . . . out of sight; out of mind. Sweeping dust under the carpet doesn't get rid of the dust.

The act of punishment is given in the hopes of rehabilitation. Punishing a child is done in the expectation that the child does not do it again (those living in reality call that rehabilitation). If you are punishing, knowing that no good will come out of it, then you are forcing society (not just the victims) to bear burden (i.e., your faint of heart) and suffer.

Punsihment is not intended to rehabilitate. It is intended to punish. Hence the term, punishment. In order for punishment to have any effect on recidivism at all, there must be a rehabilitative component. Punishment alone has been shown to have less effect on repeated behavior than any other form of operant conditioning.
It wasn't a comparison. It was an application of the same logic.

It is still a fallicious argument. You are comparing apples to oranges. Now, if we were cutting off the foot of a speeder, then you have an argument. The paying of a fine is more closely related to negative reinforcement than to punishment. They are two different constructs.
The only argument that is moot would be the allowance of double standards. "Feel good" justice only works when you focus on personal standards with complete disregard for the greater good.

How exactly does execution serve the "greater good"?

I find it curious that you, clearly, believe that there are those who cannot be rehabilitated. Would you believe that society should subsidize evil?

You are assuming quite a lot. Where exactly did I say that there are those that cannot be rehabilitated? Our current penal system does nothing to rehabilitate.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

How is it more terrible for victims not to be served justice than it is to execute an innocent man? In both cases, they died and both of them are just as innocent. I'm sorry, but I just don't think either one is more terrible than the other.

A life shouldn't be valued more than the other.

Byrdie714 · 04-20-2008, 08:17 PM

Just an observation....

I noticed that the anti-captial punishment supporters are pro-choicers on the abortion issue and that the pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment supporters which is in line with biblical teaching.....

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Just an observation....

I noticed that the anti-captial punishment supporters are pro-choicers on the abortion issue and that the pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment supporters which is in line with biblical teaching.....

Pro-choice is not inconsistent with pro-life. However, death penalty advocacy is inconsisten with pro-life. And, separation of church and state, please.

KarissaMann05 · 04-20-2008, 09:09 PM

Not true. I'm pro-life and don't support death pentaly. But thats not means it makes me less prolife anyway. Some prolifers are not support that idea (death penalty)

Besides, why some ADers bring it up with prochoice/prolife topic? It dont belong to here. Just sayin'.

Byrdie714 · 04-20-2008, 09:42 PM

Here is the thread, "Death Penalty" started back in 2004!

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates...h-penalty.html

KarissaMann05 · 04-20-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Here is the thread, "Death Penalty" started back in 2004!

http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates...h-penalty.html

Thanks for this. I'm now visit this. It look a bit different than present.

PuyoPiyo · 04-20-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Just an observation....

I noticed that the anti-captial punishment supporters are pro-choicers on the abortion issue and that the pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment supporters which is in line with biblical teaching.....

I am sorry, but this is not true. I am not Christian, but are pro-life.

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio
Take for instance, a woman who has spent years in an abusive relationship. Tired of being beaten and degraded, she shoots her husband because she beleives that is the only way to protect herself from continued abuse. She is guilty of murder, but is she likely to repeat that behavior? No. Most murders fall into this category.

Is that one movie "Cries Unheard: The Donna Yaklich Story (1994)", you refer to?

Cries Unheard: The Donna Yaklich Story Review - TV Show Reviews - Analysis Of Cries Unheard: The Donna Yaklich Story The TV Series

Very sad and true movie. I saw it on TV few years ago...

Donna met Police Officer Dennis and fall in love each other. They married and produced together a child. (Dennis already had a daughter from his previous marriage). After marriage, Dennis depend on heavyweight and took steriod drugs, etc. - it turn him into aggressive person and abuse his wife a lot. She cries for help but nobody listen her... he threaten her and destory her self-esteem... She can't take it anymore and desire to kill him but she can't so she paid a young farmer or hunter to shot him for her. Many witnesses described him as good person and police officer to against other witnesses (on her side)... etc. etc. The juries voted guilty and label her as a murder. They sent her to 40 years to life sentence. Her son visited to her time to time... He is a lawyer but none of lawyer can help to get her out of jail... She said she wish to do something different instead of got someone to shot him for her... She thought court would see the reason and give her free but it's not what she thought... I can image what if they sentence her to death if there're law in her state... which is a scary...

Yes I agree with you about repeat that behavior... Nobody repeat that behavior like this... Some people lost their mind and then next day, they doesn't intend to kill them but that's just happened...

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio
...Take for instance, a woman who has spent years in an abusive relationship. Tired of being beaten and degraded, she shoots her husband because she beleives that is the only way to protect herself from continued abuse. She is guilty of murder, but is she likely to repeat that behavior? No. Most murders fall into this category.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Does a woman in that scenario usually get the death penalty? I don't think so.

Quote:

Another big death penalty new item was the death last week of Betty Lou Beets.
Some thought George W. Bush might give her a last minute break to avoid any bad feeling it might cast on his candidacy, but he didn't.
Betty Lou Beets was a 62 year old great grandmother accused of killing her husband for the insurance money.
Her defenders say she was a battered wife who killed a horrible man in self defense and that she didn't even know she had money coming to her until years later.
Last week her appeals ran out and the state of Texas put her to death.
Is it silly to execute a 62 year old woman?
Was she given enough chances to make her case?

Further read in this link.

COURT TV ONLINE - CHAT

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 07:54 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wokamuka

I notice that those who are against the death penalty throw around the word "revenge" a lot. (Even though one of my postings explained that it was not.)

You consider death penalty as a punishment and I consider death penalty as a vengeance.

You should read what victim's families feel about death penalty...

Murder Victim's Family Opposes Death Penalty - TalkLeft: The Politics Of Crime

«I know that love does not seek revenge. We do not want a life for a life. Love seeks healing, peace and wholeness. Hatred can never overcome hatred. Only love can overcome hatred and violence. Love is that light. It is that candle that cannot be extinguished by all the darkness and hatred in the world. Judge Goger, that is the reason we are not asking for the death penalty.» -- Hector Black, whose daughter Patricia was murdered in Atlanta, Georgia in 2000, Victim Impact Statement delivered before the Fulton County (Georgia) Superior court, January 2002.

«When my husband was killed a piece of me died with him, but in time I discovered the only way to heal was to let go of the pain and anger. I chose to honor his memory through compassion and forgiveness, not by creating more victims.»
-- Carol Byars, whose husband, James Hapney, was shot in 1977 by his mother’s next-door neighborhood during an altercation and who died 8 months later.

I have found that the death penalty did not solve any of that, however I also have found that it does create more victims.» -- Ronald W. Carlson, whose sister Deborah was murdered by Karla Faye Tucker in 1983.

«I'm opposed to the death penalty because I don't agree with murder. Murder is still murder. It's violence against a human being.»

«Anger is just a horrible thing to do to your body. Not to mention what it does to your soul and spirit. Forgiveness is not saying what he did was right - it's taking back your power.»

«It's time to stop teaching people to hate and start teaching people to love. The whole execution as closure idea is not realistic.»
-- Aba Gayle, whose youngest daughter was murdered, (1) Toledo Blade, 10/1/2003; (2) & (3) Silverton Appeal Tribune, 3/12/2003.

«I have observed other murder victims' family members who are filled with vengeance. They, including some members of my own family, say that when the person who did this to their loved one is killed, they will feel better and will find closure. To say, however, that vengeance and closure can exist together is a contradiction in terms because the other side of the coin of vengeance is anger and, as long as we are holding onto our anger, our grieving isn't over. It's over only when we come to the stage of acceptance and understanding which may, in turn, lead to forgiveness. It is only then that we can find the peace which we are seeking. For when we have forgiven, we truly have no need to kill.»
-- Maria Hines, whose brother Jerry, a Virginia state trooper, was shot and killed in the line of duty.

«I know my son. And, I know that he felt the same way about forgiveness and mercy that he did about love: you simply give it, and hope the person earns it. I hope that with time, this man will earn what Jim freely offers.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, we ask you to spare Daniel Sanchez, because we know with absolute certainty that Jim would ask the same if he could. We ask it because we have loved - and love still - someone who had a greater understanding of love, forgiveness, and mercy than we do.»

«I can understand why survivors support the DP. But I say it’s wrong of the state to kill. It only creates more victims. The murderer has family, too.»
-- Lynne Marien, whose son Jim was murdered in 1996 during a botched robbery attempt, (1) Victim's impact statement at trial, (2) Daily Press.

«The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with healing. [It] just continues that cycle of violence and creates more murder victim family members. We become what we hate. We become killers.»

«A lot of people want revenge, but that is never, ever the answer. The answer is love and compassion for all of humanity.»
-- Bill Pelke, whose 78-year-old grandmother Ruth was murdered by 15-year-old Paula Cooper.

«My wife and I asked the prosecutor not to request the death penalty, and she complied, because we did not want to be the killer of our daughter's killer, and our daughter would not have wanted that either.»
-- Lorry Post, member of Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation and New Jerseyans for a Death Penalty Moratorium (NJDPM).

«The death penalty is about revenge and hate, and revenge and hate is why my daughter and those 167 other people are dead today.» -- Bud Welch, who lost his 23-year-old daughter Julie in the Oklahoma bombing in 1995, (1) in a letter to the gubernatorial candidates, 1998; (2) after the McVeigh verdict was announced; (3) KOTV, 5/30/2004; (4) CBC News, 10/6/2004; (5) www.murdervictimsfamilies.org.

«My mother was murdered when I was five years old. I went through many emotions and feelings, but anger was one feeling that I didn't feel for long. Through MVFR [Murder Victims For Reconciliation], my objective is to teach young people that forgiveness and acceptance is the key to healing. I want to help others heal so that they can live and love their lives once again.»
-- Ami White

Death Penalty Quotes - Victims' Families

Quote:

I notice that "justice" is not used with the same passion.

To my eyes, kill human is inhumane...

The death penalty is inhumane, but what other choice do we have?

Quote:

Following the logic of those who continue to say that capital punishment is all about revenge, one would have to believe that if someone was caught doing anything wrong, we should not seek to put them in jail because that would only be "revenge."

Quote:

Are judges "revenge artists"? Are the lawmakers/legislators architects of "revenge"? Do our lawyers/barristers seek to have the proper "revenge" given?

This is an illogical comparison over revenge between jail and death penalty because they both are not the same thing.

My both sons asked me about death penalty issues at few years ago... either it's really punishment? For US justice system yes, but I see different and explain them why I see death penatly is a vengeance, not punishment. They see sense and said that revenage is not a right punishment but inhumane... EXACTLY!!!! It teachs them to know that kill is not okay.

Quote:

The purpose of the prison system is for rehabilitation (or, in some parts, "re-education"). What does it say when you're trying to rehabilitate someone - for life? It would seem that people (namely, anti-Capital Punishment folks) are treating the prison systems not as a tool to create productive citizens - but as dungeons. "Out of sight; out of mind."

Quote:

It is a delusion to believe that you can condemn someone to a life sentence of rehabilitation - knowing full well that s/he will not be rehabilitated.

No, I do not beleive rehablitation is for life sentence prisoners because they will never go out of prison forever.

Life sentence is not a luxury because they will never see real life outside of prison forever. They would feel strange after 30 to 40 years sentence in prison because outside of prison is total different as in the prison. I know what it's because my step-dad was in jail for long 10 years for Bank Robbery and got out of prison and learn a lot of change at outside than in the prison. I can image what if he stay more than 20 years ... wow... it teach him lesson and have to live with his mistakes.

I am for rehabiltation/re-education for few years prisoners only. It helps them to positive their life before they go out of prison, not life sentence for serial killers, etc. If without rehabilation/re-education for few years prisoners, then they would not know what and how they doing when they are out of prison after years prison. Positive their life is better and accept to live their mistakes rest of their lives... It about lesson, they learn... ...In prison is not a luxury... they have to work hard...

Quote:

I agree that the taking of a human life is an absurd thing to do.

Yes

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not true.

There are many victim families who do not seek revenge, and yet are relieved when the criminal is executed. It definitely relieves them of the agony of repeated appeal and parole hearings, and the fear of reprisal. They no longer have to read in the papers the words, or see on TV the face the killer while he's being interviewed by a sympathetic reporter.

I don't know where some of you get this image of revenge-thirsty victims. It is entirely possible and probable for victim families to want justice without wanting revenge.

It's terrible when people are wrongly convicted. But it's even more terrible that victims are not getting the support and justice that they deserve.

Can you prove us some links to support your claim because I didn't find it...?

All what I found a lot from google that many victim families see different what you claim here and oppose death penalty for many reasons.

Question: Would Justice system respect or fulfill victim's families's wish for not want to sentence criminal to death but life sentence or follow justice system to ignore victim's families's wishes?

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

How is it more terrible for victims not to be served justice than it is to execute an innocent man? In both cases, they died and both of them are just as innocent. I'm sorry, but I just don't think either one is more terrible than the other.

A life shouldn't be valued more than the other.

Foxrac · 04-21-2008, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byrdie714

Just an observation....

I noticed that the anti-captial punishment supporters are pro-choicers on the abortion issue and that the pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment supporters which is in line with biblical teaching.....

Not true, I know that mixed numbers of pro-choice are support death penalty and everyone has different side of support, despite on pro-choice or pro-life.

Liebling:-))) · 04-21-2008, 10:20 AM

The U.S. vs. the world in the death penalty debate

Quote:

The U.S. is one of very, very few western nations that still engage in state-sponsored killing. The rest of the western world sees the death penalty as barbaric, which it is.

It is also illogical: Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

And it is unethical. Amnesty International calls the death penalty "the ultimate cruel, inhuman, and degrading punishment." And most major religious denominations in the United States are opposed to the death penalty.

Some people believe that the death penalty serves as a deterrent to crime, but that theory doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny.

And then there's the risk of executing an innocent person. Since the first DNA exoneration took place in the U.S. in 1989, 208 people have been freed via DNA evidence after being wrongfully convicted of crimes they did not commit. Many more have been exonerated via other kinds of late-coming evidence.

Some of those innocent people were freed from death row. These folks are the "lucky" ones, because they had a chance to prove their innocence before they were put to death. How many others have not been so lucky? We cannot know. But do we really want to risk that kind of mistake?

Furthermore, the American Bar Association recently described the legal process leading to executions as "deeply flawed". Studies in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and elsewhere have shown that the death penalty is applied in a discriminatory, arbitrary, and uneven manner, and is used disproportionately against racial minorities and the poor. For example, a 1998 study of death sentences in Philadelphia found that African-American defendants were almost four times more likely to receive the death penalty than were people of other ethnic origins who committed similar crimes. That's not what I would call justice.

And these are just a few of the many good reasons to go instead with a sentence of life in prison without parole. Like the rest of the civilized world.

So, on November 15, a human rights committee of the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for a global "moratorium on executions with a view toward abolishing the death penalty."

The vote was 99 in favor and 53 against, with 33 abstentions.

Want to guess who voted against the resolution? Yep, the good ol' United States of America, along with Afghanistan, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, and a handful of other countries known for their systematic violations of human rights.

What do they say about the company you keep?

The U.S. vs. the world in the death penalty debate | The Smirking Chimp

Byrdie714 · 04-21-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not true.

There are many victim families who do not seek revenge, and yet are relieved when the criminal is executed. It definitely relieves them of the agony of repeated appeal and parole hearings, and the fear of reprisal. They no longer have to read in the papers the words, or see on TV the face the killer while he's being interviewed by a sympathetic reporter.

I don't know where some of you get this image of revenge-thirsty victims. It is entirely possible and probable for victim families to want justice without wanting revenge.

It's terrible when people are wrongly convicted. But it's even more terrible that victims are not getting the support and justice that they deserve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Can you prove us some links to support your claim because I didn't find it...?

All what I found a lot from google that many victim families see different what you claim here and oppose death penalty for many reasons.

Question: Would Justice system respect or fulfill victim's families's wish for not want to sentence criminal to death but life sentence or follow justice system to ignore victim's families's wishes?

You can ask me.

I used to be a supporter of anti-capital punishment until my daughter was murdered and now, I'm pro-death penalty due to the reasons that Reba stated in her post.

I have to live with the fact tha

04-20-2008, 09:09 PM	#191 (permalink)
KarissaMann05 Jessie's Character Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,848 Blog Entries: 7	Not true. I'm pro-life and don't support death pentaly. But thats not means it makes me less prolife anyway. Some prolifers are not support that idea (death penalty) Besides, why some ADers bring it up with prochoice/prolife topic? It dont belong to here. Just sayin'. __________________ Credit by KarissaMann05

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04-20-2008, 08:17 PM	#189 (permalink)
Byrdie714 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pacific County, Washington Posts: 5,163	Just an observation.... I noticed that the anti-captial punishment supporters are pro-choicers on the abortion issue and that the pro-lifers are pro-capital punishment supporters which is in line with biblical teaching.....

04-20-2008, 09:42 PM	#192 (permalink)
Byrdie714 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pacific County, Washington Posts: 5,163	Here is the thread, "Death Penalty" started back in 2004! http://www.alldeaf.com/topic-debates...h-penalty.html