The Death Penalty - Page 6

Liebling:-))) · 04-18-2008, 09:33 AM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

People (I use the term loosely) who kill for thrill and pleasure don't regret their killings. They relive them in their minds for pleasure. They love to describe the killing over, and over again. They impress their fellow inmates. They enjoy their life sentences. That's not punishment. A life sentence teaches nothing.

This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers.

Yes, a life sentence teaches lesson.

You did not quote to answer my question.

Quote:

Liebling's post
Is it right to teach someone that killing is wrong by killing them? Can you explain how can we teach that killing is wrong by showing that kill as a punishment is right?

Quote:

Regret and sorrow for victims is for normal feeling people. Murderers are not normal. They don't have normal feelings of pity and remorse.

If you mean ALL murderers then is your opinion.

Quote:

Ask a victim's family. I have read many, many families say that the execution was a relief to them. Not a pleasure, not revenge but relief.

Yes I've read, too. They said this but it's really truth is never, never, never solve to satisfy them because they lost their loved one forever.

Quote:

The prisoners themselves say that. The criminal psychologists say that. When I get home later today I'll look up the sources. I'm surprised that you never read that before.

I am surprised either that you think "All" murderers which it is not all like this.

Quote:

So how does it punish the killer? It doesn't. They are thrilled to get all that attention. Why should the killer get pleasure? It's not fair to the victims.

They don't feel guilty. They enjoy killing.

Are you saying that all murderers?

Quote:

You've got to be kidding!

I'm surprise that you didn't know that.

Quote:

So the victims can become prisoners of fear while the killer runs around freely?

First you said "escaped" then change again and said "runs around freely"?

1. If the killer escaped out of prison then all victims and witnesses get protection as long as the killer get catch.

2. If the killer are out of prison after long years... Do you really think the victims and witnesses stay the same place where and how the killer kill their loved one? No, they would move out to other state for their safety.

Quote:

In your opinion. Ask the victims for their opinion.

You didn't quote to answer my question.

Repeat...

Quote:

Liebling"s post.
That's just we disagree that it's okay for government to kill human when they know killing is wrong but why is okay to kill as a punishment? I do not consider death penalty as a punishment but vengeance.

What would you consider if government kill innoncent... ? Murder? Would government also get death penalty as a "punishment" for kill wrong person to be fair?

If you think kill is okay then don't teach anyone that kill is not okay.

shel90 · 04-18-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

People (I use the term loosely) who kill for thrill and pleasure don't regret their killings. They relive them in their minds for pleasure. They love to describe the killing over, and over again. They impress their fellow inmates. They enjoy their life sentences. That's not punishment. A life sentence teaches nothing.

Regret and sorrow for victims is for normal feeling people. Murderers are not normal. They don't have normal feelings of pity and remorse.

Ask a victim's family. I have read many, many families say that the execution was a relief to them. Not a pleasure, not revenge but relief.

The prisoners themselves say that. The criminal psychologists say that. When I get home later today I'll look up the sources. I'm surprised that you never read that before.

So how does it punish the killer? It doesn't. They are thrilled to get all that attention. Why should the killer get pleasure? It's not fair to the victims.

They don't feel guilty. They enjoy killing.

You've got to be kidding!

So the victims can become prisoners of fear while the killer runs around freely?

In your opinion. Ask the victims for their opinion.

Yea, that's how I see it too. Most murderers/rapists especially seriel killers usually repeat their offenses when let out of jail. If I had to choose, I would rather see them put them to death instead of getting paroled. Look what happened to Polly Klass ('93).

shel90 · 04-18-2008, 09:49 AM

[quote=Liebling:-)));958736]

Quote:

This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers.

Yes, a life sentence teaches lesson.

You did not quote to answer my question.

If you mean ALL murderers then is your opinion.

Yes I've read, too. They said this but it's really truth is never, never, never solve to satisfy them because they lost their loved one forever.

I am surprised either that you think "All" murderers which it is not all like this.

Are you saying that all murderers?

I'm surprise that you didn't know that.

First you said "escaped" then change again and said "runs around freely"?

1. If the killer escaped out of prison then all victims and witnesses get protection as long as the killer get catch.

2. If the killer are out of prison after long years... Do you really think the victims and witnesses stay the same place where and how the killer kill their loved one? No, they would move out to other state for their safety.

You didn't quote to answer my question.

Repeat...

I disagree..I dont think I want to live my life in paralyzing fear knowing that the killer has been released. Also, in my area last year, a child murderer was paroled and the neighbors lived in complete fear even though they werent direct victims of this murderer. It makes everyone become a victim when they have to change their lifestyles and live with that constant terror especially if they are parents of young children. The murderer committed suicide so everyone was able to breathe a bit easier. It was before we bought the house. Our neighbors informed us. Wow..

jillio · 04-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yea, that's how I see it too. Most murderers/rapists especially seriel killers usually repeat their offenses when let out of jail. If I had to choose, I would rather see them put them to death instead of getting paroled. Look what happened to Polly Klass ('93).

The percentage of serial killers compared to single victim murders comitted dependent upon situation are very, very small. That is why we hear so much about them. They are unusual and different. Actually, people convicted of single victim murder have the lowest recidivism rate of all criminals.

Take for instance, a woman who has spent years in an abusive relationship. Tired of being beaten and degraded, she shoots her husband because she beleives that is the only way to protect herself from continued abuse. She is guilty of murder, but is she likely to repeat that behavior? No. Most murders fall into this category.

And, if justice is to be fair, we cannot ask for a puishment that exceeds the crime committed. To sentence a rapist to death simply because we fear that he/she may commit the crime again is to sentence them to punishment that exceeds the crime. Life in prison with no chance of parole is justifiable is some cases, particularly with a serial rapists who commits crimes against children, to be sure. But to sentence to death for a crime that did not result in death is nothing more than revenge.

jillio · 04-19-2008, 03:19 PM

Man's guilt doubted after 26 years in prison - CNN.com
CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A man locked away 26 years for murder was granted a new trial and freed on bond Friday with the help of two attorneys who came forward with a client's confession after the client died in prison.

Alton Logan, right, walks out of jail Friday with family members Eugene Logan and Barbara Cannon.

Alton Logan's family took up a collection in the lobby of the Cook County Criminal Courthouse and quickly came up with the $1,000 they needed to post bond.

A dozen friends and family broke into applause as Logan, 54, exited the building. He tearfully said it felt "great" to be free before he was whisked away in a black SUV.

Logan's younger brother, Eugene Logan, was adamant that he would be freed after his retrial.

"Nobody deserves to be locked away for 26 years for something they didn't do," said Eugene Logan, 48, of Portland, Oregon. "It's a blessing today that my brother's been released. He's not been exonerated yet, but we're going back to court, and it will happen."

Two attorneys recently revealed that their former client, Andrew Wilson, admitted committing the crime that sent Logan to prison, but attorney-client privilege had kept them from coming forward.

Wilson's death last year allowed the attorneys to unseal an affidavit stating that Logan was not responsible for the fatal shooting of security guard Lloyd Wickliffe at a McDonald's restaurant in January 1982.

Dale Coventry, one of the attorneys who signed the affidavit, said Friday night that he hopes prosecutors will acknowledge they went in the wrong direction with the case.

"Poor Mr. Logan was locked up all these years for something he didn't do, and that's unfortunate that it worked out the way it did," Coventry said. "I wish (the release) had happened a lot sooner, but unfortunately there was no way to do anything."

It would be up to Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office to prosecute the case because of a conflict of interest for the Cook County State's Attorney's office. Madigan's spokeswoman, Robyn Ziegler, said no decision had been made about a retrial.

"We will carefully review all the evidence in the case and then decide the appropriate next step," she said.

Logan's uncle, Arthur Gordon, 70, of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, waited outside the jail, saying he knew his nephew was innocent.

"I knew he didn't do that because I had been talking to him over the years," Gordon said. "He kept his spirit. He said, 'Uncle, I have to stay up. I can't go down. I can't go down."'

Logan's family planned to take him for a steak and lobster dinner on his first night of freedom.

"I'm going to turn him on to life," Eugene Logan said. "That's what we're going to do. We're going to live it together."

Here is a very good reason NOT to support the death penalty.

Oceanbreeze · 04-19-2008, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Man's guilt doubted after 26 years in prison - CNN.com
CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A man locked away 26 years for murder was granted a new trial and freed on bond Friday with the help of two attorneys who came forward with a client's confession after the client died in prison.

Alton Logan, right, walks out of jail Friday with family members Eugene Logan and Barbara Cannon.

Alton Logan's family took up a collection in the lobby of the Cook County Criminal Courthouse and quickly came up with the $1,000 they needed to post bond.

A dozen friends and family broke into applause as Logan, 54, exited the building. He tearfully said it felt "great" to be free before he was whisked away in a black SUV.

Logan's younger brother, Eugene Logan, was adamant that he would be freed after his retrial.

"Nobody deserves to be locked away for 26 years for something they didn't do," said Eugene Logan, 48, of Portland, Oregon. "It's a blessing today that my brother's been released. He's not been exonerated yet, but we're going back to court, and it will happen."

Two attorneys recently revealed that their former client, Andrew Wilson, admitted committing the crime that sent Logan to prison, but attorney-client privilege had kept them from coming forward.

Wilson's death last year allowed the attorneys to unseal an affidavit stating that Logan was not responsible for the fatal shooting of security guard Lloyd Wickliffe at a McDonald's restaurant in January 1982.

Dale Coventry, one of the attorneys who signed the affidavit, said Friday night that he hopes prosecutors will acknowledge they went in the wrong direction with the case.

"Poor Mr. Logan was locked up all these years for something he didn't do, and that's unfortunate that it worked out the way it did," Coventry said. "I wish (the release) had happened a lot sooner, but unfortunately there was no way to do anything."

It would be up to Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office to prosecute the case because of a conflict of interest for the Cook County State's Attorney's office. Madigan's spokeswoman, Robyn Ziegler, said no decision had been made about a retrial.

"We will carefully review all the evidence in the case and then decide the appropriate next step," she said.

Logan's uncle, Arthur Gordon, 70, of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, waited outside the jail, saying he knew his nephew was innocent.

"I knew he didn't do that because I had been talking to him over the years," Gordon said. "He kept his spirit. He said, 'Uncle, I have to stay up. I can't go down. I can't go down."'

Logan's family planned to take him for a steak and lobster dinner on his first night of freedom.

"I'm going to turn him on to life," Eugene Logan said. "That's what we're going to do. We're going to live it together."

Here is a very good reason NOT to support the death penalty.

I read about this, Jillio. That's just awful. It makes one think, thats for darn sure!

jillio · 04-19-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

I read about this, Jillio. That's just awful. It makes one think, thats for darn sure!

Yes, this is a crime that would have made this man eligble for the death penalty. What if we had executed him, and then found out that he is innocent?

Oceanbreeze · 04-20-2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes, this is a crime that would have made this man eligble for the death penalty. What if we had executed him, and then found out that he is innocent?

I honestly don't know. The only thing that comes to mind is a question... If that had happened, could his family have sued the state?

I also read that the judge ordered a new trial for this man. To me, THAT is wrong, too. The person that is said to have committed the crime, died in prison. If they KNOW who committed the crime, why go through the expense of retrying THIS man? It makes NO SENSE!

Reba · 04-20-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Man's guilt doubted after 26 years in prison - CNN.com

...Here is a very good reason NOT to support the death penalty.

Was he on death row?

Reba · 04-20-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

I disagree..I dont think I want to live my life in paralyzing fear knowing that the killer has been released. Also, in my area last year, a child murderer was paroled and the neighbors lived in complete fear even though they werent direct victims of this murderer. It makes everyone become a victim when they have to change their lifestyles and live with that constant terror especially if they are parents of young children. The murderer committed suicide so everyone was able to breathe a bit easier. It was before we bought the house. Our neighbors informed us. Wow..

Exactly. Why should the victims and their families have to suffer over, and over again?

Reba · 04-20-2008, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

...Take for instance, a woman who has spent years in an abusive relationship. Tired of being beaten and degraded, she shoots her husband because she beleives that is the only way to protect herself from continued abuse. She is guilty of murder, but is she likely to repeat that behavior? No. Most murders fall into this category.

Does a woman in that scenario usually get the death penalty? I don't think so.

Quote:

And, if justice is to be fair, we cannot ask for a puishment that exceeds the crime committed. To sentence a rapist to death simply because we fear that he/she may commit the crime again is to sentence them to punishment that exceeds the crime. Life in prison with no chance of parole is justifiable is some cases, particularly with a serial rapists who commits crimes against children, to be sure. But to sentence to death for a crime that did not result in death is nothing more than revenge.

Do serial rapists and child rapists get life without parole? Not always. Not even often.

Some criminal experiences are worse than death, the victims will tell you. Do you want to tell the victims that their suffering wasn't enough to justify a severe sentence for the perpetrator?

PuyoPiyo · 04-20-2008, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Man's guilt doubted after 26 years in prison - CNN.com
CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A man locked away 26 years for murder was granted a new trial and freed on bond Friday with the help of two attorneys who came forward with a client's confession after the client died in prison.

Alton Logan, right, walks out of jail Friday with family members Eugene Logan and Barbara Cannon.

Alton Logan's family took up a collection in the lobby of the Cook County Criminal Courthouse and quickly came up with the $1,000 they needed to post bond.

A dozen friends and family broke into applause as Logan, 54, exited the building. He tearfully said it felt "great" to be free before he was whisked away in a black SUV.

Logan's younger brother, Eugene Logan, was adamant that he would be freed after his retrial.

"Nobody deserves to be locked away for 26 years for something they didn't do," said Eugene Logan, 48, of Portland, Oregon. "It's a blessing today that my brother's been released. He's not been exonerated yet, but we're going back to court, and it will happen."

Two attorneys recently revealed that their former client, Andrew Wilson, admitted committing the crime that sent Logan to prison, but attorney-client privilege had kept them from coming forward.

Wilson's death last year allowed the attorneys to unseal an affidavit stating that Logan was not responsible for the fatal shooting of security guard Lloyd Wickliffe at a McDonald's restaurant in January 1982.

Dale Coventry, one of the attorneys who signed the affidavit, said Friday night that he hopes prosecutors will acknowledge they went in the wrong direction with the case.

"Poor Mr. Logan was locked up all these years for something he didn't do, and that's unfortunate that it worked out the way it did," Coventry said. "I wish (the release) had happened a lot sooner, but unfortunately there was no way to do anything."

It would be up to Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office to prosecute the case because of a conflict of interest for the Cook County State's Attorney's office. Madigan's spokeswoman, Robyn Ziegler, said no decision had been made about a retrial.

"We will carefully review all the evidence in the case and then decide the appropriate next step," she said.

Logan's uncle, Arthur Gordon, 70, of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, waited outside the jail, saying he knew his nephew was innocent.

"I knew he didn't do that because I had been talking to him over the years," Gordon said. "He kept his spirit. He said, 'Uncle, I have to stay up. I can't go down. I can't go down."'

Logan's family planned to take him for a steak and lobster dinner on his first night of freedom.

"I'm going to turn him on to life," Eugene Logan said. "That's what we're going to do. We're going to live it together."

Here is a very good reason NOT to support the death penalty.

Yike! That's so sad! Shame on them...

Reba · 04-20-2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers.

Yes, a life sentence teaches lesson.

Yeah. It teaches that the life of a victim is cheap, and that the murderer's life is more valuable.

Quote:

You did not quote to answer my question.
Liebling's post
Is it right to teach someone that killing is wrong by killing them? Can you explain how can we teach that killing is wrong by showing that kill as a punishment is right?

Yes, ma'am, I'll hop right to it!

I only had a few minutes available on the computer but I should drop everything and answer you. I don't have the luxury of using my employer's time and computer to respond to AD posts.

Yes, it is right to teach people that if they murder someone they will have to pay for the crime with their own lives.

We teach that murder is wrong by providing a strong punishment for it. We have to show that we mean business when we tell people that murder is wrong.

Quote:

If you mean ALL murderers then is your opinion.

To which I'm entitled.

Quote:

Yes I've read, too. They said this but it's really truth is never, never, never solve to satisfy them because they lost their loved one forever.

It doesn't bring back their loved one but it lets them sleep in peace without having to look over their shoulders or get dragged back into the presence of the murderer each time a parole hearing comes up.

Quote:

Are you saying that all murderers?

The murderers, rapists, and pedophiles who are on death row, yes.

Unless they truly repent their sins and turn to God, they will get pleasure from reliving their crimes.

Quote:

I'm surprise that you didn't know that.

It's a total fantasy to believe that the police can fully protect citizens 24/7. Even if they could, why should the victims have to live like prisoners in fear? That's totally screwed up.

Quote:

First you said "escaped" then change again and said "runs around freely"?

Why are you confused? If they escape they are running around freely. They are out of prison.

Quote:

1. If the killer escaped out of prison then all victims and witnesses get protection as long as the killer get catch.

That's not real life; that's TV.

Quote:

2. If the killer are out of prison after long years... Do you really think the victims and witnesses stay the same place where and how the killer kill their loved one? No, they would move out to other state for their safety.[/color]

That's is so wrong. Why should the victims and witnesses have to move and hid. That's ridiculous. They didn't do anything wrong.

Besides, guess what? The killer can travel to another state and pursue them. There are no border checks at each state. Give me a break.

Quote:

You didn't quote to answer my question.

Repeat...Liebling"s post.
That's just we disagree that it's okay for government to kill human when they know killing is wrong but why is okay to kill as a punishment?

Yes, ma'am!

The US "government" executes guilty criminals after a long, multi-staged process. That is not the same thing as a blood-thirsty pervert who rapes, tortures, and then kills little girls.

Quote:

I do not consider death penalty as a punishment but vengeance.

You can consider it whatever you want. That doesn't change the facts.

Quote:

What would you consider if government kill innoncent... ?

What do you mean by innocent? Do you mean someone who is judged innocent, or do you mean people who have been wrongly convicted?

Quote:

Would government also get death penalty as a "punishment" for kill wrong person to be fair?

If you mean someone who was wrongly convicted, and it was proven, how could "the government" get a death penalty punishment? The government is not a person. That doesn't make sense.

Quote:

If you think kill is okay then don't teach anyone that kill is not okay.

Murder is not OK.

Reba · 04-20-2008, 01:29 AM

[quote=Liebling:-)));958736]This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers....
If you read this page, and the following chapters, you will see some of what I mean:

Serial Killer Art, therapy with a profit motive - The Crime library

They are not repentant.

Cheri · 04-20-2008, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Take for instance, a woman who has spent years in an abusive relationship. Tired of being beaten and degraded, she shoots her husband because she beleives that is the only way to protect herself from continued abuse. She is guilty of murder, but is she likely to repeat that behavior? No. Most murders fall into this category.

I wouldn't call her "murder", It looks like a clear case of self-defense, but, the prosecutors wouldn't think so, because you can't put justice in your own hands to stop the abuse.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:37 AM

[quote=Reba;959518]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers....
If you read this page, and the following chapters, you will see some of what I mean:

Serial Killer Art, therapy with a profit motive - The Crime library

They are not repentant.

That is a facet of the mental illness that leads to serial killing. An inability to experience remorse. However, they are still in the minority when it comes to individuals convicted of murder.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I wouldn't call her "murder", It looks like a clear case of self-defense, but, the prosecutors wouldn't think so, because you can't put justice in your own hands to stop the abuse.

Unless she was being attacked at the time she killed him, it can't be called "self defense" under the law. But they can take mitigating circumstances under consideration that attest to the mental state of someone who has been abused repeatedly over time.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Was he on death row?

Whether he was on death row or not is irrelevent. This is proof of the errors made in our jsutice system. If our system is subject to errors that wrongly convict innocent individuals, then to risk making that error in the case of a death penalty is too great a risk to take.

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

I honestly don't know. The only thing that comes to mind is a question... If that had happened, could his family have sued the state?

I also read that the judge ordered a new trial for this man. To me, THAT is wrong, too. The person that is said to have committed the crime, died in prison. If they KNOW who committed the crime, why go through the expense of retrying THIS man? It makes NO SENSE!

Yes, the family could have sued the state had he been executed. But how does one decide the monetary value of a life taken in revenge?

jillio · 04-20-2008, 08:45 AM

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04-19-2008, 03:19 PM	#155 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,332	Man's guilt doubted after 26 years in prison - CNN.com CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A man locked away 26 years for murder was granted a new trial and freed on bond Friday with the help of two attorneys who came forward with a client's confession after the client died in prison. Alton Logan, right, walks out of jail Friday with family members Eugene Logan and Barbara Cannon. Alton Logan's family took up a collection in the lobby of the Cook County Criminal Courthouse and quickly came up with the $1,000 they needed to post bond. A dozen friends and family broke into applause as Logan, 54, exited the building. He tearfully said it felt "great" to be free before he was whisked away in a black SUV. Logan's younger brother, Eugene Logan, was adamant that he would be freed after his retrial. "Nobody deserves to be locked away for 26 years for something they didn't do," said Eugene Logan, 48, of Portland, Oregon. "It's a blessing today that my brother's been released. He's not been exonerated yet, but we're going back to court, and it will happen." Two attorneys recently revealed that their former client, Andrew Wilson, admitted committing the crime that sent Logan to prison, but attorney-client privilege had kept them from coming forward. Wilson's death last year allowed the attorneys to unseal an affidavit stating that Logan was not responsible for the fatal shooting of security guard Lloyd Wickliffe at a McDonald's restaurant in January 1982. Dale Coventry, one of the attorneys who signed the affidavit, said Friday night that he hopes prosecutors will acknowledge they went in the wrong direction with the case. "Poor Mr. Logan was locked up all these years for something he didn't do, and that's unfortunate that it worked out the way it did," Coventry said. "I wish (the release) had happened a lot sooner, but unfortunately there was no way to do anything." It would be up to Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan's office to prosecute the case because of a conflict of interest for the Cook County State's Attorney's office. Madigan's spokeswoman, Robyn Ziegler, said no decision had been made about a retrial. "We will carefully review all the evidence in the case and then decide the appropriate next step," she said. Logan's uncle, Arthur Gordon, 70, of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, waited outside the jail, saying he knew his nephew was innocent. "I knew he didn't do that because I had been talking to him over the years," Gordon said. "He kept his spirit. He said, 'Uncle, I have to stay up. I can't go down. I can't go down."' Logan's family planned to take him for a steak and lobster dinner on his first night of freedom. "I'm going to turn him on to life," Eugene Logan said. "That's what we're going to do. We're going to live it together." Here is a very good reason NOT to support the death penalty.

04-20-2008, 01:29 AM	#164 (permalink)
Reba Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 15,676	[quote=Liebling:-)));958736]This is your opinion if you mean ALL murderers.... If you read this page, and the following chapters, you will see some of what I mean: Serial Killer Art, therapy with a profit motive - The Crime library They are not repentant.

04-20-2008, 08:45 AM	#170 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,332	Qu