The Death Penalty - Page 17

jillio · 05-09-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

oh of course... but Jillio chose to view the statement in some other way that suits her. So it is not "twisted" to one's view but New Testament was rewritten to the point where it's ambiguous - it's open to one's interpretation. Jesus Christ supported death penalty BUT...... he also said to forgive and not to judge. So... nobody's right. It's pretty much up to you to judge somebody's fate.

If he murdered your child, you can either kill him or forgive him. It's up to you! Neither of these choices makes one any less of a man. Neither is sinful. The only sin is that man murdering your child.

Nope, I viewed it in the very language in which it was delivered. I made the statement, "as a group". You brought the issue of individual perspective into it.

And, once again, we are discussing civil law, not religious law. Stick to the topic.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowpuppy

She said....."as a group". Meaning 'generally speaking'. You chose to view the statement in some other way that suits you. To view it in a way to twist it for your need.

You are absolutely correct, cowpuppy. Thank goodness someone involved in this discussion possesses critical thinking skills, lol.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 01:04 PM

The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. Read Catholic teaching, personal stories ahttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.aspnd a prayer to end the death penalty.

The Death Penalty and the Catholic Church

The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.

It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof.

Clearer Position on the Death Penalty

Like I said, "Catholics as a group".

KarissaMann05 · 05-09-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. Read Catholic teaching, personal stories ahttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.aspnd a prayer to end the death penalty.

The Death Penalty and the Catholic Church

The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty.

It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof.

Clearer Position on the Death Penalty

Like I said, "Catholics as a group".

Finally, I glad you mention that not all believers support that idea.

I don't. Support. That. Idea.

Oceanbreeze · 05-09-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

it can be:
1. 1 innocent wrongfully executed per year consecutively
2. if proven or shown beyond reasonable doubt by statistics and extensive studies that it causes crimes (only crimes that are punishable by death penalty) to increase
3. uuuummmm..... can't think of anything else

but I think you know what I'm saying. For now - I've seen statistics, arguments, and studies that death penalty does decrease murder rates and it is proven effective as bargaining chip when negotiating with criminals. More importantly, the error rate of executing innocent is IMPROBABLE.

If you can prove to me otherwise with substantial statistics/studies/etc. and convincing arguments (beside some religious belief and so-called ethics), then I'm on your side without question, without hesitation, without pause. That's the deal

Cheri · 05-09-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

In this case, because it was twisted.

I don't see it was twisted. A group means a handful of people, there are handful of Christians and Catholics who support the death penalty and there are group of handful Catholics and Christians who strongly value life, no ifs, no buts.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Finally, I glad you mention that not all believers support that idea.

I don't. Support. That. Idea.

YW!

jillio · 05-09-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I don't see it was twisted. A group means a handful of people, there are handful of Christians and Catholics who support the death penalty and there are group of handful Catholics and Christians who strongly value life, no ifs, no buts.

No, a group means the individuals making up a specific population, and the values represented by that group collectively. A handful would be those few individuals that hold beliefs different from the group as a whole. The Catholic Church is the defining entity that consitutes the belief of the group as a whole. That is what defines the belief as a group. The few that disagree do not influence the values and norms of the group as a whole. They are simply differing views within the group.

So, in effect, it was twisted. You cannot use one dissenting opinion to establish the position of a group as a whole. I referred to group. Jiro referred to individual, and attempted to apply an individual belief to a group. That is definately twisting. In other words, simply because Shapiro supports the death penalty as a Catholic does not mean that Catholics as a group support the death penalty. Please refer to my post regarding the Catholic stance on the death penalty.

Chase · 05-09-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

Quite a handful of Catholics and Christians support death penalty. ... there are many branches of Christians/Catholics who interpret it to their own way to be against or for death penalty.

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

Cheri · 05-09-2008, 02:20 PM

Not everyone thinks like you Jillio. If he stated "All" Catholics that would mean every individuals in that group supports the death penalty as a whole, which he did not stated that. And not every Catholics follows the Pope John Paul II's opinion either. Everyone has their own freedom of thoughts.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Not everyone thinks like you Jillio. If he stated "All" Catholics that would mean every individuals in that group supports the death penalty as a whole, which he did not stated that. And not every Catholics follows the Pope John Paul II's opinion either. Everyone has their own freedom of thoughts.

No, Cheri, it is simply that you do not uderstand the concept of group as a sociological reference. Her referred to Judge Scalia's affiliation with the Catholic Church, would indicate his membership in a group known as "Catholics". He then cited Judge Scalia's support for the death penalty as an individual, which implies, by his reference to the judge's membership in the group, that it has an impact on the judge's personal belief system. An individual can claim membership in many different groups. For instance, Judge Saclia is not just a Catholic, he is also a member of a group divided by gender (men), another group known as "parent", and most importantly, a group decided by profession "lawyer". One group can have more of an impact on an idividual's personal stance depending upon the topic. Quite obviously, them important influence in the case of Judge Scalia is not his membership in a group known as "Catholic", but in the group defined as "lawyer". The group influence of lawyer created more of an impact on his development of his personal value system in regard to the death penalty than did his membership in the group known as "Catholic." That is exactly why his individual opinion regarding the death penalty does not reflect the group value adopted by Catholics as a whole.

And that is why it was irrelevent when Jiro brought it up, and why I pointed out the irrelevence based on Catholic group values as opposed to individual group member values.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

Exactly.

Cheri · 05-09-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase

One of the implied twists I don't understand is the separation of "Catholics" from "Christians." I see it from writers with a bias and from those who play fast and loose with history.

In the history I studied and taught, Catholics were the original Christians until the Reformation of the 1500s. They continue as several denominations of the Christian faith to this day.

Then tell me why do they have a Catholic Church and a Christian Church separate? We only share the common ground of faith in Jesus. Catholics have masses, The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot, some worship of the crucifix, they don't eat meats on Fridays, at the Christians church we don't do none of that. So please explain...

jillio · 05-09-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Then tell me why do they have a Catholic Church and a Christian Church separate? We only share the common ground of faith in Jesus. Catholics have masses, The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot, some worship of the crucifix, they don't eat meats on Fridays, at the Christians church we don't do none of that. So please explain...

Actually, the only time that Catholics don't eat meat on Friday is during Lent.

Why do we have a Baptist Church and a Prebyterian Church? Different doctrines. What makes one a Christian is a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Christ=Christian. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a Christian. Christian is the larger defining group, denomination defines the sub-group.

And, at your particular Christian church you don't do any of that. It doesn't mean that no Christians do that just because your church doesn't.

Cheri · 05-09-2008, 03:11 PM

Jillio, I'm asking Chase since he brought it up. I rather to hear directly from him.

Reba · 05-09-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Actually, the only time that Catholics don't eat meat on Friday is during Lent.

That's now but it wasn't that way in the past.

I remember Fish Stick Fridays in the public school lunchroom.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

That's now but it wasn't that way in the past.

I remember Fish Stick Fridays in the public school lunchroom.

Oh, yeah! I was raised Catholic, and had a Jewish mother. I was the only kid in my Catholic School that had Lox and Bagels for lunch on Friday! LOL.

Chase · 05-09-2008, 03:45 PM

Cheri, I don't know how to explain it better than Jillio did. Maybe Webster's Dictionary can:

Christian churches include: Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, Latter-day Saint, Congregational, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Christianity, Coptic, Pentecostal, Evangelical Reformed, Church of England, Unitarian, Melkite, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, United Brethren, Society of Friends, Quakers.

And that's not a complete list. On another note, every religion has different practices, and they all can be made to seem strange, unholy, unhealthy, and downright screwy to others. Let's not go there.

However, it remains that implying Catholics are not Christians is a misconception, a twisting of facts.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Jillio, I'm asking Chase since he brought it up. I rather to hear directly from him.

Okay. You got your answer.

BTW, that would be "kissing the Pope's ring" not his foot. LOL.

jillio · 05-09-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

What´s an abbrevation word for YW? I am trying to figure out... Do you mean "You Welcome"... Right?

Yes!

jiro123 · 05-09-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

So, we have to kill several innocent people and compile those statistics before you support abolition of the death penalty. I wonder if the people who would be wrongly put to death would agree that it is necessary to sacrifice their life in order to convince you?

When computer/machines were born, 10000000000000 people lost their jobs which means probably some people died from it due to being unable to make living to feed their families or whatsoever. As the time goes on - the benefits outweighs the risk. so far... no several innocent people have been wrongfully-executed or to put it liberally (with ACLU) - 39 has been wrongfully executed out of 1099. In fact - we haven't heard any wrongful execution for a long time. so that's fine by me until that result changes. 1 wrongful execution.... or 5 dead innocents brutally murdered by escapee or probationer. The benefit of death penalty outweighs the risk. Like I said previous - if there was 1 wrongful-execution per year consecutively... or 2 in a year... I will join your Million (Wo)Men March to D.C. to demand a reform or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof.

tell me something I don't know. I believe I commented on this many many times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

It is not a matter of whether it increases crime or not. It is a matter of whether it serves as a deterrent. You have a distorted view of the intent of punishment.

Oh I'm not gona worry about the effect of death penalty has on deterring or increasing the crimes. My biggest concern goes to the safety of community and the victims' families... and their lives as well. Seems like you value murderer's life more.

Recall Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee pardoning a serial rapist Wayne DuMond? He was released 25 years before his sentence would have ended. After he was released, he raped and murdered a woman in Missouri. Not sure why didn't he get death penalty this time. Oh by the way - Hucakbee is a Southern Baptist minister and he supports death penalty.

Q. Do you think the death penalty is carried out justly in the US? And do you want to see it continued?
A. "I probably dislike the death penalty more than anybody on this stage, but for a very different reason. I've actually had to carry it out, more than any governor in my state's history. I had to carry out the death penalty because that was my job. I did it because I believed, after reading every page of every transcript and everything in that file, it was the only conclusion we could come to. But I didn't enjoy it. And God help the American who somehow has this cavalier attitude about the death penalty and says they support it and they can do it. Let me tell you something from the person whose name had to be put on the document that started the process: It's a necessary part of our criminal justice system for those crimes for which there is no other alternative. But God help the person who ever does it without a conscience and feels the pain of it."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And once again, improbable does not equate to non-existent. Perhaps your refusal to consider ethical considerations is your biggest problem.

Right... I didn't say non-existent, didn't I? I said it's improbable because there has been no case of wrongful execution since 1900s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No, a group means the individuals making up a specific population, and the values represented by that group collectively. A handful would be those few individuals that hold beliefs different from the group as a whole. The Catholic Church is the defining entity that consitutes the belief of the group as a whole. That is what defines the belief as a group. The few that disagree do not influence the values and norms of the group as a whole. They are simply differing views within the group.

I'm sorry but those groups are held by an individual's view, if not handful, and they gained a large amount of support which is how you have something called "Catholics, as a group, does not support death penalty." Just cuz Pope strongly believes in anti-death penalty does not mean it's what Bible accurately said. Refer to what Cheri said. I have no disrespect for Pope but he's just a mortal man with his own opinion and he can interpret the Bible to whatever he wants.

Perhaps you should rethink carefully.

"Think about back in 1900s where white people STRONGLY believed black people were TRULY inferior - scientifically and genetically. and they strongly believed blacks were Devil's creatures out to rape their women and eat them. Think about back in 1500s where Europeans strongly believed it was God's duty to colonize the world and to enslave the inferior natives. Heck! in old time, they believed women should be a GOOD WIFE and stay in kitchen and bed which you would be doing if Women's Rights weren't recognized! Boy! were they so wrong!!!"

Do you need me to remind you what were Catholics' and Pope's views back in old time? even now? Pope Benedict XVI "strongly reasserted the church's opposition to abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage." (NY Times)

So you're against abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage? just cuz he said so?

They are not the law of life nor the authority of life. Their views change quite a lot in the history. The Bible never changed. The message is same - The Bible, or namely Jesus Christ, just wants you to think with wisdom before you judge somebody. Refer to what Cheri said again - "A group means a handful of people, there are handful of Christians and Catholics who support the death penalty and there are group of handful Catholics and Christians who strongly value life, no ifs, no buts."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

So, in effect, it was twisted. You cannot use one dissenting opinion to establish the position of a group as a whole. I referred to group. Jiro referred to individual, and attempted to apply an individual belief to a group. That is definately twisting. In other words, simply because Shapiro supports the death penalty as a Catholic does not mean that Catholics as a group support the death penalty. Please refer to my post regarding the Catholic stance on the death penalty.

Really? one dissenting opinion? I believed I showed you a handful of people who supported death penalty - Judge Scalia, Mike Huckabee, my devout Christian friend, and yes Jesus Christ. Pope is merely a mortal man with scepter and a big fat Mafia ring on his finger. His view is not the representation of God's view. It's just his opinion. He simply wants people to be forgiving and merciful. I used Jesus Christ's teachings to clarify your misunderstanding because well.... he's a friggin' Jesus Christ! He's always right.

And no I will not refer to our post regarding the Catholic stance on the death penalty. I'm sorry but Jesus Christ's teaching overrides Pope's and Catholics' views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

More educated and well informed people than you than you have attempted to interpret Biblical writings. I think I'll rely on their expertise.

That's why I consulted with my friend who is a devout Christian and also a son of minister... or pastor - I forget.

By the way - he supported death penalty. Jesus Christ supported it but urged you to refrain yourself from using violence. At no point, however, does Jesus deny that the State has authority to exact capital punishment. No passage in the New Testament disapproves of the death penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And, once again, we are discussing civil law, not religious law. Stick to the topic.

Funny... Didn't I tell you that all you have given me are your high belief and ethic.... not one iota of statistic/studies/polls? I thought I should try to go your way by attacking, analying, correcting your view (belief/ethic) that not all Catholics - "as a group" want to abolish death penalty and that death penalty is not a sin nor a greatest crime to humanity. I still have not been able to understand why do you wish to value murderer's life more and ignore the the victims' and communities' well-being and agony.

In real life, I'm not going to judge you for that. I ultimately respect your stance on death penalty issue. The whole point of forum is to "pretend" we're debating at Congress or Supreme Court on why should or should not keep death penalty. You selectively choose a Catholics group of your similar view and agenda. Because of that, your belief and ethic are unsubstantial and unfounded - which is how you lose the debate. I choose Jesus Christ's teaching and statistics and logics to justify my position. Religion said it's not wrong to do death penalty. Statistics/Graphs/Studies said it helped lower the violent crimes and error rate is improbable. Logic helps saves community's and victims' lives from murderers repeating crimes again.

jiro123 · 05-09-2008, 07:37 PM

just something interesting to read...

** The combined aggregate results from the nine surveys conducted from 2001 through 2004 show some interesting, albeit subtle, differences in death penalty support by religious affiliation.

Gallup Poll: Who Supports the Death Penalty?

**Results are based on telephone interviews with 6,498 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted Feb. 19-21, 2001; May 10-14, 2001; Oct. 11-14, 2001; May 6-9, 2002; Oct. 14-17, 2002; May 5-7, 2003; Oct 6-9, 2003; May 2-4, 2004; and Oct. 11-14, 2004. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ± 2 percentage points.

05-09-2008, 02:20 PM	#490 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: All I wanted was a white knight with a good heart, soft touch, fast horse, ride me off into the sunset Posts: 20,160	Not everyone thinks like you Jillio. If he stated "All" Catholics that would mean every individuals in that group supports the death penalty as a whole, which he did not stated that. And not every Catholics follows the Pope John Paul II's opinion either. Everyone has their own freedom of thoughts. __________________

05-09-2008, 03:11 PM	#495 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: All I wanted was a white knight with a good heart, soft touch, fast horse, ride me off into the sunset Posts: 20,160	Jillio, I'm asking Chase since he brought it up. I rather to hear directly from him. __________________

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05-09-2008, 01:04 PM	#483 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,154	The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment. Read Catholic teaching, personal stories ahttp://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.aspnd a prayer to end the death penalty. The Death Penalty and the Catholic Church The Catholic bishops of the United States have provided careful guidance about this difficult issue, applying the teaching of the universal Church to our American culture. Along with the leadership assemblies of many Churches (for example. American Baptists, Disciples of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians), the U.S. bishops have expressed their opposition to the death penalty. First articulated in 1974, the bishops' position is explained in a 1980 statement, Capital Punishment. Individual bishops and state conferences of bishops have repeated in numerous teachings their opposition to the death penalty. It is not easy, however, to convince some that the death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crimes, especially homicide. Recent FBI crime reports show that murder rates in states where the death penalty is in effect has increased over 2%, while the murder rate where the death penalty is not used decreased 5%. The death penalty, unfortunately, is not a deterrent to violent crimes, while at the same time the danger of wrongful convictions is very great where poorly defended accused are more likely to receive the death penalty than those with proper defense. Also since new DNA evidence has been used to overturn murder convictions and free innocent prisoners, there is a stark reminder that our criminal justice system is not fool proof. Clearer Position on the Death Penalty Like I said, "Catholics as a group".

05-09-2008, 03:45 PM	#498 (permalink)
Chase Retired on ex-mod pension Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Albany, Oregon Posts: 2,066	Cheri, I don't know how to explain it better than Jillio did. Maybe Webster's Dictionary can: Christian churches include: Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, Latter-day Saint, Congregational, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Christianity, Coptic, Pentecostal, Evangelical Reformed, Church of England, Unitarian, Melkite, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, United Brethren, Society of Friends, Quakers. And that's not a complete list. On another note, every religion has different practices, and they all can be made to seem strange, unholy, unhealthy, and downright screwy to others. Let's not go there. However, it remains that implying Catholics are not Christians is a misconception, a twisting of facts.

05-09-2008, 07:37 PM	#502 (permalink)
jiro123 >:{ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: NJ Posts: 1,878	just something interesting to read... The combined aggregate results from the nine surveys conducted from 2001 through 2004 show some interesting, albeit subtle, differences in death penalty support by religious affiliation. Gallup Poll: Who Supports the Death Penalty? Results are based on telephone interviews with 6,498 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted Feb. 19-21, 2001; May 10-14, 2001; Oct. 11-14, 2001; May 6-9, 2002; Oct. 14-17, 2002; May 5-7, 2003; Oct 6-9, 2003; May 2-4, 2004; and Oct. 11-14, 2004. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ± 2 percentage points.

05-09-2008, 08:06 PM	#503 (permalink)
Chase Retired on ex-mod pension Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Albany, Oregon