The Death Penalty - Page 14

GarnetTigerMom · 05-07-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

Yes exactly! The kids do not live with parents forever. They move out at age of 18 (or whatever) and it's out of parents' control on their life. Things could happen to kids on their own so it's not parents' faults for making them a killer. Could be peer influence by wrong crowd, environmental factor, etc.

If the parents divorce, the child would feel he did something wrong to make them hate each other. That is absurd in most cases, right??? unless.... he is actually worse than Dennis the Menace who drove them apart

Actually I have known some adults still live with their parents. But not all of them turns out badly just because they live with their folks.

shel90 · 05-07-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

What she said is that she raises their kids in a proper care and a full of love and goodness until one of her children turns in a serial killer. Liebling will very confuse and wonder what she have so wrong, she only want to understand why her child do it so wrong way?

Clearly, she did not mean she will raise their kids as bad/evil children. Of course, she would not do that. I know she is not that kind of person to do so.

I am somewhat, personally, disagree with Liebling because it may not her fault if she do raise their kids very well. It must be some situations effect on one of her children. But, on the other hand, Liebling may be right. I meant, it may be her fault if she don't realize she teach her kids in a slight wrong way. Really, that depend.

Anyway --
I saw many posts, here, this make me go and headache. Still, it's very interesting to read those.

Same here..Just finally had the time to check this thread again..whoa!!!!

Cheri · 05-07-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Yes I saw his/her post and was like *sigh

*. I can see that she/he have lack of knowledge and feeling.

I'm sorry, I must say that I disagree with you, because from reading jiro123's posts, he/she made a lot of good points.

People do have secrets, they're not an open book, the only way you'll know is to get inside their minds.

Take Scott Peterson for an example, his parents thought he was all-loving son, generous, hard-working man, but he had his secrets, that his parents never knew, a son that is be a cold-blood murder. Some people still think he is innocent, but I don't think he is, he wouldn't lie so much, where nobody would want to believe him anymore.

shel90 · 05-07-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarnetTigerMom

Actually I have known some adults still live with their parents. But not all of them turns out badly just because they live with their folks.

I agree...we just never know with anyone, really.

Cheri · 05-07-2008, 10:10 PM

Read this story about Tyler Edmonds who took the blame to save his sister. It's a very sad story.

Free Tyler Edmonds

jillio · 05-07-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Read this story about Tyler Edmonds who took the blame to save his sister. It's a very sad story.

Free Tyler Edmonds

Thank God the Supreme Court overturned this child's conviction!

jiro123 · 05-07-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Here you go. Copied and pasted from your post: It will give peace of mind to public if they were executed. Do you want Henry Lee Lucas alive in prison? (he confessed to 3,000 murders)... Andrew Cunanan (murdered 5 people including Gianni Versace)... Gerard john Schaefer (cop who killed 34 women/girls... so on Go back to your post and you will find that the names link directly back to Wiki.

Ah.... it's just reference to their names so that audience knows who are they. If you would like me to give you government file on them instead of wiki, I can do that. We both know that is not necessary because it'll say something. Again you haven't showed me that I used wiki for my sources (other than murderers' background).

Quote:

Actually, yes. There are parenting classes. However, I was not referrring to Leibling's parenting. I was referrring to your inability to asess that for which you have niether the education nor the experience. Not to mention the liscense. You cannot make an asssessment regarding the parenting skills nor the motivations of a parent psychologicallyt with an intro course under your belt. Not to mention one that you have not even completed.

If you read carefully what I wrote to Leibling, you will see that I did not claim to be an expert. I merely said "it seems like...." Police Officer does not need medical license or graduate-level courses to determine if you pose a danger to public or not if you were pulled over for drunk driving.

Quote:

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you gain a little more information on the field of clinical psychology. And yes, I have interviewed criminals. My experience is not limited to research, papers, and shadowing. I have field experience. And, as I told you, I also have a minor in sociology and anthropology. Many of those course are directly related to the criminal population. In fact, my supervisor for my soc methods class is a criminologist. Two of my soc classes were taught by the Asst Warden for one of the largest prisons in my state. I did field work under both of them. And I find it ironic that you would question my experience and expertise when you obviously have none of what you are questioning, yet you expect us to accept your posts as knowledgeable.

and I find it ironic that you still have not been able to prove to me with solid data/statistic that death penalty is ineffective and harmful. We ALL are still waiting for it. deathpenalty.org is not a great site to convince us.

and why don't you elaborate more on your nature of studies with criminals so we can get some better idea of your expertise in this nature of issue. what were your research about? what kind of criminals are they? what are the demographic statistic on them?

Quote:

I said FBI agents do not have the power to diagnose. And by your posting, you have admitted that they have one clinical forensic psychologist on staff. "A" means "one." And the person whom you quoted is not the one. Therefore, his quote is useless to your point as he does not have the expertise to diagnose.

He was not diagnosing the criminals. He was given reports by . President Bush speaks at the podium to discuss about the danger that Iran poses to us. He does not have expertise to diagnose either. The intelligence analyst is certainly not going to speak at the podium! President Bush was given details and such before he speaks. Same thing for FBI Special Agent John P. Skillestead. He's merely reading from reports and conclusions compiled by professional with advanced degrees.

Quote:

I know exactly what criminologists are. How many sociological theories can you apply to criminology? I can apply several, and have done so in numerous papers. Criminologists are scholars in sociological and psychological theory as applied to the cause of deviant behavior. Shall we discuss the theoretical foundations of deviant behavior?

Sure please share with us! I've mentioned previously that if you can convince me with overwhelming and sufficient arguments accompanied by empirical data, then I will fall to your side to abolish death penalty. Until then, I'm on my beach chair with pro-death penalty group.

Quote:

And I explained to you that your judgemental tendencies places you decidedly on the right.

Sure why not? They have sufficiently argued their position. Therefore I agreed with them. I'm not on their side when it comes to gay rights and pro-corporation rights.

Quote:

Firstly, I never said that captial punsihment increases crime rates. Evidently, you are misreading things. Perhaps that accounts for your errors. What I said was, it does not decrease the rate of murder or violent crime. Given the fact that you seem to believe that you are so informed on sociological, criminology, and psychology, those reasons should already be obvious to you. You are looking at the situation from a very superficial perspective, but that is typical of one that has completed only an intro level course.

To say that capital punishment does not decrease the rate of crimes... hmmmm that's interesting. Could you support your claim with reports? I believe I've counter-argued that claim. As said by Wesley Lowe - "Dismissing capital punishment on that basis requires us to eliminate all prisons as well because they do not seem to be any more effective in the deterrence of crime."

The most striking protection of innocent life has been seen in Texas, which executes more murderers than any other state. According to JFA (Justice for All), the Texas murder rate in 1991 was 15.3 per 100,000. By 1999, it had fallen to 6.1 - a drop of 60%. Within Texas, the most aggressive death penalty prosecutions are in Harris County (the Houston area). Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 - a 72% decrease.

[click for PDF]
Series of academic studies within the last six years show that the death penalty does indeed act as a deterrent to murder. These analysts count that between 3 and 18 lives would be saved by the execution of each convicted murderer. Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver, co-authored a 2003 study and re-examined a 2006 study that found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. In an interview, he states: "Science does really draw a conclusion...There is no question about it. The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect. The results are robust. They don't really go away. I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) - what am I going to do, hide them?"

another proof -

do you require anything more?

Quote:

If you will go back and read this thread in its entirety, you will find that I did that before you even got started.

I went back and I still haven't found any. All I got is you expressing concerned about executing wrong person. Guess what? Justice Antonin Scalia of Supreme Court said "... in the recent American history, there has not been a single case - not one - in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit."

I rest my case

jiro123 · 05-07-2008, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Thank God the Supreme Court overturned this child's conviction!

yea thanks god he wasn't wrongfully-executed! After all, abolitionists have nothing to worry about! Justice System prevails!! So far, 0 has been wrongfully-executed!

jillio · 05-07-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

Ah.... it's just reference to their names so that audience knows who are they. If you would like me to give you government file on them instead of wiki, I can do that. We both know that is not necessary because it'll say something. Again you haven't showed me that I used wiki for my sources (other than murderers' background).

If you read carefully what I wrote to Leibling, you will see that I did not claim to be an expert. I merely said "it seems like...." Police Officer does not need medical license or graduate-level courses to determine if you pose a danger to public or not if you were pulled over for drunk driving.

and I find it ironic that you still have not been able to prove to me with solid data/statistic that death penalty is ineffective and harmful. We ALL are still waiting for it. deathpenalty.org is not a great site to convince us.

and why don't you elaborate more on your nature of studies with criminals so we can get some better idea of your expertise in this nature of issue. what were your research about? what kind of criminals are they? what are the demographic statistic on them?

He was not diagnosing the criminals. He was given reports by . President Bush speaks at the podium to discuss about the danger that Iran poses to us. He does not have expertise to diagnose either. The intelligence analyst is certainly not going to speak at the podium! President Bush was given details and such before he speaks. Same thing for FBI Special Agent John P. Skillestead. He's merely reading from reports and conclusions compiled by professional with advanced degrees.

Sure please share with us! I've mentioned previously that if you can convince me with overwhelming and sufficient arguments accompanied by empirical data, then I will fall to your side to abolish death penalty. Until then, I'm on my beach chair with pro-death penalty group.

Sure why not? They have sufficiently argued their position. Therefore I agreed with them. I'm not on their side when it comes to gay rights and pro-corporation rights.

To say that capital punishment does not decrease the rate of crimes... hmmmm that's interesting. Could you support your claim with reports? I believe I've counter-argued that claim. As said by Wesley Lowe - "Dismissing capital punishment on that basis requires us to eliminate all prisons as well because they do not seem to be any more effective in the deterrence of crime."

The most striking protection of innocent life has been seen in Texas, which executes more murderers than any other state. According to JFA (Justice for All), the Texas murder rate in 1991 was 15.3 per 100,000. By 1999, it had fallen to 6.1 - a drop of 60%. Within Texas, the most aggressive death penalty prosecutions are in Harris County (the Houston area). Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 - a 72% decrease.

[click for PDF]
Series of academic studies within the last six years show that the death penalty does indeed act as a deterrent to murder. These analysts count that between 3 and 18 lives would be saved by the execution of each convicted murderer. Naci Mocan, an economics professor at the University of Colorado at Denver, co-authored a 2003 study and re-examined a 2006 study that found that each execution results in five fewer homicides, and commuting a death sentence means five more homicides. In an interview, he states: "Science does really draw a conclusion...There is no question about it. The conclusion is there is a deterrent effect. The results are robust. They don't really go away. I oppose the death penalty. But my results show that the death penalty (deters) - what am I going to do, hide them?"

another proof -

do you require anything more?

I went back and I still haven't found any. All I got is you expressing concerned about executing wrong person. Guess what? Justice Antonin Scalia of Supreme Court said "... in the recent American history, there has not been a single case - not one - in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit."

I rest my case

Yeah, you go ahead and rest your case. Perhaps one day, you will be as educated and well informed as you actually believe yourself to be.

If you can't see the problems inherent in Scalia's statement, then you really are incapable of critical thinking. No wonder you continue to refer to "statistics" as "data" despite several explanations regarding the difference.

Oh, and when you use specific cases to illustrate your point, and then the links are parsed straight back to the site from which you pulled them, you have most definately used them as a reference. Do you actually think about the stuff you read, or do you just randomly copy it?

jillio · 05-07-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

yea thanks god he wasn't wrongfully-executed! After all, abolitionists have nothing to worry about! Justice System prevails!! So far, 0 has been wrongfully-executed!

And how could you possibly know that for sure?

jiro123 · 05-07-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yeah, you go ahead and rest your case. Perhaps one day, you will be as educated and well informed as you actually believe yourself to be.

If you can't see the problems inherent in Scalia's statement, then you really are incapable of critical thinking. No wonder you continue to refer to "statistics" as "data" despite several explanations regarding the difference.

Oh, and when you use specific cases to illustrate your point, and then the links are parsed straight back to the site from which you pulled them, you have most definately used them as a reference. Do you actually think about the stuff you read, or do you just randomly copy it?

what's funny is.... it makes me wonder if you are actually clinical Ph.d candidate. All your obfuscation and fast talking makes me think you're actually a political science student. You still have yet to counter-argument with any documentations. I have repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly asked you for it and still NO SHOW!

jiro123 · 05-07-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

And how could you possibly know that for sure?

Justice Antonin Scalia of Supreme Court said "... in the recent American history, there has not been a single case - not one - in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit."

Why don't you show it to me that we have wrongfully-executed person?

jillio · 05-07-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

what's funny is.... it makes me wonder if you are actually clinical Ph.d candidate. All your obfuscation and fast talking makes me think you're actually a political science student. You still have yet to counter-argument with any documentations. I have repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly asked you for it and still NO SHOW!

Just as you have failed to substantiate anything. And, quite frankly, I don't care what you believe. When you are able to provide documentation, I will be happy to provide you with citations for numerous reputable and valid research articles from academic sources.

jillio · 05-07-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

Justice Antonin Scalia of Supreme Court said "... in the recent American history, there has not been a single case - not one - in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit."

Why don't you show it to me that we have wrongfully-executed person?

Like I said, how can you be certain? Answer the question. You are not answering the question. What is it that you don't undertand?

jiro123 · 05-07-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Just as you have failed to substantiate anything. And, quite frankly, I don't care what you believe. When you are able to provide documentation, I will be happy to provide you with citations for numerous reputable and valid research articles from academic sources.

You can start with that first. Some people in this postings have agreed with me that I raised good points by showing you graphs, data, etc. You have not at all. Not once. Remember - if you can SUFFICIENTLY, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, with overwhelming arguments by experts and reliable data that capital punishment DOES cause crime rates to increase. Then I will support abolishment of capital punishment and join your cause.

btw - you'd make a good politician

Cowpuppy · 05-07-2008, 11:20 PM

jiro...you put your foot in your mouth.....
scalia states 'IT IS NOT CLEAR' but you tried to pass it off as clear proof....he says it is not clear anyone has been executed wrongly.....you call that proof that none has been executed wrongly...0 you claim....he says 'it is not clear'....read it again....
you tell others to not quote something and try to pass it off as fact....exactly what you have done here
I REST MY CASE

KarissaMann05 · 05-07-2008, 11:22 PM

Jillio vs. Jiro123

Interesting, indeed, interesting.

Cowpuppy · 05-07-2008, 11:23 PM

CAITAL PUNISHMENT DOES CAUSE CRIME TO INCREASE?????? whoever made that claim....the argument is 'deter'....not to increase....you have made up some kind of new rules to some game in your head.....no one ever claimed it would increase crime....that works for your argument I suppose though....tsk tsk

Cowpuppy · 05-07-2008, 11:25 PM

then you want to claim it as fact......quote some funky bunk you made up in your head something that could not be prooven cuz noone ever claimed that anyway....then claim it as fact.....moving the goalpost to win.....silly stuff

jillio · 05-07-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiro123

You can start with that first. Some people in this postings have agreed with me that I raised good points by showing you graphs, data, etc. You have not at all. Not once. Remember - if you can SUFFICIENTLY, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, with overwhelming arguments by experts and reliable data that capital punishment DOES cause crime rates to increase. Then I will support abolishment of capital punishment and join your cause.

btw - you'd make a good politician

Once again, it is not "data", it is "statisitics". And Ihave never claimed that capital punishment causes crime rates to increase, so why should I support a claim I never made? Please show me where I said that capital punshment causes crime rates to increase.

jillio · 05-07-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowpuppy

CAITAL PUNISHMENT DOES CAUSE CRIME TO INCREASE?????? whoever made that claim....the argument is 'deter'....not to increase....you have made up some kind of new rules to some game in your head.....no one ever claimed it would increase crime....that works for your argument I suppose though....tsk tsk

No one made that claim. He is just grasping at straws at this point.

Cowpuppy · 05-07-2008, 11:31 PM

sometimes criminals go off the deep end suicidal.....figure will be caught and executed or life sentence...in this way.it could increase it in a few cases but not overall....and noone needs to prove it to you either. it's apples and oranges. two different ideas.
not everything in life is black and white....gray areas

Cowpuppy · 05-07-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

Jillio vs. Jiro123

Interesting, indeed, interesting.

ha ha scoot over and share some corn Karissa

05-07-2008, 10:10 PM	#395 (permalink)
Cheri Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: All I wanted was a white knight with a good heart, soft touch, fast horse, ride me off into the sunset Posts: 20,225	Read this story about Tyler Edmonds who took the blame to save his sister. It's a very sad story. Free Tyler Edmonds __________________

05-07-2008, 11:22 PM	#407 (permalink)
KarissaMann05 Jessie's Character Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,868 Blog Entries: 9	Jillio vs. Jiro123 Interesting, indeed, interesting. __________________ Credit by KarissaMann05

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05-07-2008, 11:20 PM	#406 (permalink)
Cowpuppy Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: On The Road Again Posts: 375	jiro...you put your foot in your mouth..... scalia states 'IT IS NOT CLEAR' but you tried to pass it off as clear proof....he says it is not clear anyone has been executed wrongly.....you call that proof that none has been executed wrongly...0 you claim....he says 'it is not clear'....read it again.... you tell others to not quote something and try to pass it off as fact....exactly what you have done here I REST MY CASE

05-07-2008, 11:23 PM	#408 (permalink)
Cowpuppy Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: On The Road Again Posts: 375	CAITAL PUNISHMENT DOES CAUSE CRIME TO INCREASE?????? whoever made that claim....the argument is 'deter'....not to increase....you have made up some kind of new rules to some game in your head.....no one ever claimed it would increase crime....that works for your argument I suppose though....tsk tsk

05-07-2008, 11:25 PM	#409 (permalink)
Cowpuppy Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: On The Road Again Posts: 375	then you want to claim it as fact......quote some funky bunk you made up in your head something that could not be prooven cuz noone ever claimed that anyway....then claim it as fact.....moving the goalpost to win.....silly stuff

05-07-2008, 11:31 PM	#412 (permalink)
Cowpuppy Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: On The Road Again Posts: 375	sometimes criminals go off the deep end suicidal.....figure will be caught and executed or life sentence...in this way.it could increase it in a few cases but not overall....and noone needs to prove it to you either. it's apples and oranges. two different ideas. not everything in life is black and white....gray areas

05-07-2008, 11:37 PM	#414 (permalink)
Cowpuppy Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: On The Road Again Posts: 375