"Judge not, that ye be not judge" - Page 6

deafdyke · 09-28-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

As you state, many want to change but they are not supported enough by family, friends, society, or church to make the change. It is a real shame that they cannot get the healing that they seek.

That's a very typical conservative Christian remark. "It's just b/c of a lack of support" WRONG! Reba.....open your mind and read the experiances of Christians who discovered they were gay. MANY of them wore out the knees on their pants praying for God to cure them. If it was a matter of support from the family or church, then people like Phillis Schafly, Cheney, and that Concerned Women for America person, would never have produced GLB offspring. If it was a matter of going into church based programs which claim to produce ex-gays......(and those things are intensive)...then we wouldn't have ex-ex gay movements.
You have NO IDEA whatsoever, what we GLBers have gone through!
Many of them feel like they've failed God b/c they happened to fall in love with a person who just happens to have an innie or an outie!
God doesn't judge on skin color....He doesn't get all het up about interracial marriage (except according to Chrisitan Idenity or some ultra ultra conservative churches) Why would He condemn my feelings for Maureen, or Gale or any of the other girls I've had feelings for?
I have a LOT more to say but, I'm gonna be late for class.
I know b/c my first girlfriend went through that......She loved me very much, but was just so damn confused about

**Cheri** · 09-28-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkflare83

for one thing i agree we have no right to judge for its not our place to do so we are just servant of god just like those who are judged i find absolutely no reason to judge others even if i did then i m wrong for human shouldnt judge other human i never seen animals judge other animals why cant we be same? arent the judging s the reason most war start out?

You got a good point there,

I do agree that it is wrong to judge anyone, based on their sins because we don't know their situation to know what's in their heart or mind. Jesus taught us all to love each other, and forgive those who sins, even ourselves. "But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins" (Matthew 6:15). If you forgive others, all hatred and bitterness will disappear. If you want to follow Satan ways, persuading us not to forgive anyone, You are going to still have all hatred and bitterness in your heart. So, Don't judge then you wouldn't be judge, and forgive others.

Like CookieMonster had mention,

Quote:

"We're sinners one way or another, regardless of what we've done. It doesn't matter whether you're GLBT, racist, homophobic, rapists or even murderers. We all face the same person that judges us when we pass on."

That's is so true.

deafdyke · 09-28-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

do agree that it is wrong to judge anyone, based on their sins because we don't know their situation to know what's in their heart or mind.

Yes, and we don't know God's real view on this!!!! The very fact that there is debate on this is PROOF, that we don't know God's true mind on this issue! Nobody is trying to make evil things good things...they are just trying to argue that NOBODY but God knows whether or not its a sin.
I mean the proscription on homosexuality isn't universal among all the religions of the world! Even Christian churches debate about it!
Forty years ago they were probaly doing the same thing WE'RE doing, except in THAT case they were debating about Bibilcal interpretations of the impact on civil rights. There are STILL some old school folks who believe the old teachings, and not just folks who almost surely belong in the nuthouse (like the Christian Identiy folks)I was reading stormfront, (not gonna link to it since I don't want scary trolls over here) and there was an old skool Baptist type ranting and raving about how "libreal" the Baptist church has become!
Cheri, good point....A Christian would probaly condemn someone for having an abortion...b/c abortion "always" equals killing a baby....Not nessarily.....An abortion is the premature ENDING of a pregnancy....Therefore, abortions can be done on babies who have died inutereo...

**Cheri** · 10-09-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Cheri, good point....A Christian would probaly condemn someone for having an abortion...b/c abortion "always" equals killing a baby....Not nessarily.....An abortion is the premature ENDING of a pregnancy....Therefore, abortions can be done on babies who have died inutereo...

Yes, so true beside it's way impossible to banned Abortion too, Anyone will find ways to get it done. It would kill more people. And what's more is if you heard of Abortion bombing, and killing of Abortion doctors? Christians complain that Abortion is killing a living life, What about them killing a doctor is that a living life? They call themselves Pro-lifers, but they are killing abortion doctors, and nurses at the abortion clinics and bombing buildings with people inside.

Another thing I was discussing this to my hearing sister last night I was asking her why some Christians are so judgment? She says they always are and she doesn't like it either. In facts my whole family are Christians and they don't even talk that way, They don't judge others for their sins. My family says they believe that Christians should be loving all, giving and caring not judging.

(And that makes them good Christians)

Just my two cents.

Crazymanw00t · 10-17-2005, 02:19 PM

First of all, stop abusing with this quote, "You are judging us!" That is wrong for you to use against me. I am not here to judge you and I don't have any power to judge you. I am here to preach you from the Bible, therefore the Bible says something that is forbid then I have to preach you to not do whatever Bible forbids. But you are saying that I am judging you and you need to remember that and where I got the information from and it came from the Bible. The Bible is written by Holy Spirit and that means it came from Lord. Lord already judged you before you were born therefore you cannot say I am judging you. You can say, "Lord stop judging me!" not "You are judging me!" Thank you very much.

**Cheri** · 10-17-2005, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazymanw00t

First of all, stop abusing with this quote, "You are judging us!" That is wrong for you to use against me. I am not here to judge you and I don't have any power to judge you. I am here to preach you from the Bible, therefore the Bible says something that is forbid then I have to preach you to not do whatever Bible forbids. But you are saying that I am judging you and you need to remember that and where I got the information from and it came from the Bible. The Bible is written by Holy Spirit and that means it came from Lord. Lord already judged you before you were born therefore you cannot say I am judging you. You can say, "Lord stop judging me!" not "You are judging me!" Thank you very much.

That's interesting, I didn't know the Lord said "They are just f**king others for their own self-ish sexual pleasure" Didn't you or not said that? therefore you claim that everything you said was from the bible? Didn't you just lied?

Crazymanw00t · 10-17-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

That's interesting, I didn't know the Lord said "They are just f**king others for their own self-ish sexual pleasure" Didn't you or not said that? therefore you claim that everything you said was from the bible? Didn't you just lied?

Hey why are you using Jesus Christ's name in vain? I never said Lord or God said that quote. The point is that God forbids homosexual life or their marriage or their pleasure life with the same sex. Therefore I explains why the homosexual is out there with the quote. It is fact and clearly.

**Cheri** · 10-17-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazymanw00t

Hey why are you using Jesus Christ's name in vain? I never said Lord or God said that quote. The point is that God forbids homosexual life or their marriage or their pleasure life with the same sex. Therefore I explains why the homosexual is out there with the quote. It is fact and clearly.

I am using Jesus's name in vain? Re-read your post again Crazyman, even better let me point it out to you, so you don't get so confused, which you already are.

Quote:

I am here to preach you from the Bible, therefore the Bible says something that is forbid then I have to preach you to not do whatever Bible forbids. But you are saying that I am judging you and you need to remember that and where I got the information from and it came from the Bible.

Now, after reading your post, I add a statement that you used before in another thread, to point out what you said about getting information from the bible, as far as I know Jesus would never say those words as such you would, so really you did not get that information from the bible. That's my point.

deafdyke · 10-17-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Anyone will find ways to get it done. It would kill more people. And what's more is if you heard of Abortion bombing, and killing of Abortion doctors? Christians complain that Abortion is killing a living life

Yeah, it's just a nessary evil. Against abortion? Good......Don't have one, and fight for better birth control and better social justice issues.

deafdyke · 10-17-2005, 05:54 PM

Crazyman.....You ARE judging us! Can't you read? The VERY FACT that there is debate on whether or not homosexuality is a sin, is PROOF that it's not as clear cut as you believe God has it.
YOUR God may condemn me as a sinner.....BUT MY GOD doesn't! My God/Creator/Everpresent Being DOES NOT judge me. Hey, according to some people......b/c I'm a woman I'm not allowed to speak out in church. That would be a SIN according to THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Yet, most mainline Christians don't believe it's a sin.
Did you know that the term homosexuality wasn't even coined until recently?
Many Biblcal scholars think that the sex condemned in the Bible was akin to sex club stuff....you know random hedonistic stuff, or about sexual abuse in Ancient Greece......
Stop judging us....stop preaching to us.....Most of us have heard it all before. We live in a country that is majority Christian after all.....and there are tons of people roaming around and performing street missionary services!
What makes YOUR version of the Bible correct? Nobody but God knows. Man cannot truely know the power that is God. Man is imperfect! (the Bible even says so!)

Crazymanw00t · 10-17-2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Now, after reading your post, I add a statement that you used before in another thread, to point out what you said about getting information from the bible, as far as I know Jesus would never say those words as such you would, so really you did not get that information from the bible. That's my point.

The Bible made clear no gay. I am using the example from my life experience with gay and to crack ur hard-head. Therefore where the no gay came from then it came from the Bible. Stop playing around.

**Cheri** · 10-17-2005, 07:57 PM

You don't get it Crazyman, Man this is so hilarious, It's like this, talking to a wall with him.

deafdyke · 10-17-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

The Bible made clear no gay.

Yes, but JESUS never said anythign about homosexuality didn't He? The founder of YOUR religion never said ANYTHING.....Don't you think that if it had been that important He would have said something? He didn't!

Crazymanw00t · 10-17-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

Yes, but JESUS never said anythign about homosexuality didn't He? The founder of YOUR religion never said ANYTHING.....Don't you think that if it had been that important He would have said something? He didn't!

Ok you didn't use your own head. Do you know the trinity. LORD (GOD), Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit are one God. Therefore all statments before Jesus Christ appearance are Jesus Christ's statements because of trinity.

Crazymanw00t · 10-17-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

You don't get it Crazyman, Man this is so hilarious, It's like this, talking to a wall with him.

and your point is? IT is obviously that you are stuck with my rebuttal on you. Nice Nice....

10-17-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazymanw00t

First of all, stop abusing with this quote, "You are judging us!" That is wrong for you to use against me. I am not here to judge you and I don't have any power to judge you. I am here to preach you from the Bible, therefore the Bible says something that is forbid then I have to preach you to not do whatever Bible forbids. But you are saying that I am judging you and you need to remember that and where I got the information from and it came from the Bible. The Bible is written by Holy Spirit and that means it came from Lord. Lord already judged you before you were born therefore you cannot say I am judging you. You can say, "Lord stop judging me!" not "You are judging me!" Thank you very much.

Oh, you're not judging by condemning one's lifestyle as sinful? Look up the definition of the word judge:

Quote:

1 : to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
2 : to sit in judgment on : TRY
3 : to determine or pronounce after inquiry and deliberation
4 : GOVERN, RULE -- used of a Hebrew tribal leader
5 : to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about <shouldn't judge him because of his accent>
6 : to hold as an opinion : GUESS, THINK <I judge she knew what she was doing>

The Bible says no gays? Good! The Bible also says no trimming your beard! I'm willing to bet you don't have a full length beard.

You're a homophobe. Plain and simple.

**Maria** · 10-17-2005, 10:04 PM

Hey, hey everybody... calm down.
Don't throw a dart at Jesus, please. You are grievin' Him.

OhioRelayGuy · 10-17-2005, 10:16 PM

People who judge others like that obviously have issues within themselves that they need fixing, and t hey lash out toward people who seem like easy targets for them. Its quite sad really. People need to be more open minded about ALOT of things.

10-17-2005, 10:18 PM

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Originally Posted by OhioRelayGuy

People who judge others like that obviously have issues within themselves that they need fixing, and t hey lash out toward people who seem like easy targets for them. Its quite sad really. People need to be more open minded about ALOT of things.

Well said!! If people were more open minded about things, life would be a lot more easier rather than complicated.

**Reba** · 10-17-2005, 10:37 PM

I found this interesting analysis:

http://www.equip.org/free/DH055-2.htm

THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUALITY

The Authority of Scripture

It is extremely revealing to note that almost every pro-gay group within the church shares one thing in common: they reject the Bible as being fully the Word of God. Of the above mentioned denominations which have accepted homosexuality or are sympathetic to it, none of them believe that we have God's inerrant Word in the Old and New Testaments. Likewise, the many pro-homosexual books that have come out almost all reject — or even ridicule — the church's historic stance on the inspiration and authority of Scripture.

Three different lines of attack on Scripture are found in the various pro-homosexual literature. The first is simply to ignore the biblical writers on the grounds that they were men who oftentimes made mistakes, and thus to reject what Scripture says as being morally authoritative. Thus John Barton states that "the Bible is not a code at all; it is a big baggy compendium of a book, full of variety and inconsistency, sometimes mistaken on matters of fact and theology alike."17 And elsewhere, in John Boswell's widely cited work, we find: "In considering the supposed influence of certain biblical passages...one must first relinquish the concept of a single book containing a uniform corpus of writings accepted as morally authoritative."18

A second attack relates to the first — that is, the biblical writers were ignorant about homosexuality. They did not know all that we do today, it is argued, and so we must judge and interpret the Bible with our modern understanding of biology, psychology, sociology, and so forth. "With the quantum leaps that have been achieved in biology, psychology, and sociology, minds in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries must subject traditional religious arguments about nature to more thorough and critical analyses."19

It is not within the purview of this article to give a detailed defense of the inspiration and reliability of the Bible.20 However, the simple response to these attacks is that both Judaism and Christianity have always held to the full authority of Scripture, as did Jesus Himself. In speaking of the Old Testament, for example, our Lord succinctly declared: "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). Parts of Scripture cannot be accepted while other parts are rejected. And in speaking of the guidance His apostles would receive, including guidance on their future writings (i.e., the New Testament), Jesus told them: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26; cf. 2 Tim. 3:16).

It is ludicrous to believe that the Creator of the universe, in guiding the biblical authors, was ignorant concerning the things we now know about homosexuality through modern biology, psychology, sociology, and so forth. To deny scriptural statements about homosexuality on these grounds is to completely deny God's superintendence in the authorship of Scripture.

A third type of attack is to state that it really does not matter what heterosexuals think the Bible says about homosexuality, because homosexuals must interpret Scripture in view of their own experiences. Hence, in the book Building Bridges we find the statement that "the scriptures contain some insights that can be made known to the Christian community only through the testimony of lesbian and gay people." Thus homosexuals must "interpret the scriptures in the light of their own experiences."21

The problem with this is that a person could justify any type of behavior by saying that Scriptures pertaining to a particular behavior can only be understood by those who engage in such behavior (e.g., incest, adultery, fornication, and even bestiality). Those who believe this should remember the words of our Lord: "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:35).

(cont.)

**Reba** · 10-17-2005, 10:41 PM

(cont.)

Human Sexuality

Genesis 1-2

For those who believe that statements of the Bible are normative for our daily lives, the most important question to consider regarding homosexuality is: What was God's purpose in creating human sexuality? The answer to this question is more important than any other area of discussion.

From the very beginning of His revelation to humankind, God has revealed His order of creation, especially as it relates to sexuality. In Genesis 1 we are told that one purpose in creating the two sexes was procreative — through the sexual union of male and female we could reproduce the race: "Male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen. 1:27b-28).

More detail is provided in Genesis 2, however, where we are told that in addition to procreation, there is a unitive function of sexuality that has to do with fulfilling our need for companionship: "And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him'" (Gen. 2:18). Then, after God created Eve and presented her to Adam, Adam rejoiced in his God-given companion. The chapter concludes: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24-25).

In this second chapter several items emerge. First, man has need for companionship: "It is not good that man should be alone" (Gen. 2:18); second, God makes provision to meet this need: the creation of woman (2:19-23). Concerning this, Samuel Dresner, Visiting Professor at Jewish Theological Seminary, states: "Woman is formed and becomes his partner. In her, man finds completion."22 And third, God ordains the institution of marriage. We are told that the man would (1) "leave his father and mother," (2) "cleave to his wife," and (3) "they shall become one flesh." Thus we find that heterosexuality is proclaimed to be God's natural order of creation.

In the New Testament, whenever the subject of sexuality comes up, the heterosexual norm of marriage is always upheld. For example, Jesus, in answer to a question, quoted Genesis 1 and 2: "Have you not read, that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matt. 19:4-6).

In addition, the apostle Paul reaffirms the norm of heterosexuality in several of his letters, also quoting the Genesis passages (e.g., Eph. 5:25-33; cf. 1 Cor. 7:2-3, 10-16; 1 Tim. 3:2, 12). And while some protest that we cannot take Genesis 1 and 2 as modern scientific treatises,23 these chapters nonetheless teach us spiritual truths concerning God's intended order for His creation.

It is only in the heterosexual union of marriage that we find the fulfillment of God's intended order, both procreative and unitive. However, pro-homosexual writers argue that while homosexual activity in and of itself cannot be procreative it can still fulfill the unitive role of Genesis 2. In response to this Harvey writes:

Consider the three common forms of sexual activity between homosexual persons. Mutual masturbation in no way constitutes a physical union.... Among female homosexuals some form of genital massage is used to bring the partner to orgasm, but this is not a physical union. In anal or oral intercourse between males the intromission of the penis in an opening of the body not meant to be used for the genital expression of sexuality cannot be called a true physical union....By way of contrast, the heterosexual union aptly symbolizes the psychological and spiritual union that ought to exist between a man and a woman.24

One does not need a Ph.D. to realize that homosexuality is anatomically aberrant; that is, there is a created biological order intended in our sexuality. As an editorialist at Harvard's Peninsula journal writes: "How can (homosexual) people be happy when they're persistently deceiving themselves, believing that it is just as natural for sperm to swim into feces as it is to swim into eggs?"25

"The true religious goal of human sexuality can be seen, not as satisfaction, but as completeness."26 This fulfillment is unattainable in homosexuality.

Now that we have considered God's positive purpose in creating human sexuality, we are ready to look at biblical texts which explicitly address homosexuality. Space precludes a detailed response to pro-homosexual interpretations of these passages. The interested reader can check the resources listed in the endnotes for further reading.

Leviticus 18 and 20

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Lev. 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. (Lev. 20:13)

Although these prohibitions explicitly condemn homosexuality as an abomination before God, we are told that they are not relevant today. Why? First, the pro-homosexual interpretation is that since these condemnations are contained in the "Holiness Code" of Israel, they were only applicable to ancient Israelites, to keep them separate from the pagan practices of their neighboring tribes.27

Second, parts of this code are not kept today. Letha Scanzoni and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott assert that "consistency and fairness would seem to dictate that if the Israelite Holiness Code is to be invoked against twentieth-century homosexuals, it should likewise be invoked against such common practices as eating rare steak, wearing mixed fabrics, and having marital intercourse during the menstrual period."28

Much effort need not be expended answering these objections. First, God did not condemn certain behavior for the Israelites only because Israel was to be kept separate from Canaanite practice. Otherwise, if the Canaanites did not practice child sacrifice and bestiality, would these then have been all right for the Israelites? Of course not! Having sexual relations with an animal and killing one's child are inherently wrong and evil, even when they are not related to pagan worship; they are abominations before God. And yet, these specific prohibitions also are listed in this passage, both immediately before and after the condemnation of homosexuality (Lev. 18:21-23).

Other prohibitions listed in Leviticus include incest and adultery (Lev. 18:6ff; 20:10). Were these too only condemned because of the Canaanites? To argue in this fashion is dishonest and denies that there are eternal moral absolutes.

What of the fact that other parts of the Holiness Code in Leviticus are not kept today? Again, the answer is simple. The Holiness Code contained different types of commands. Some were related to dietary regulations or to ceremonial cleanliness, and these have been done away with in the New Testament (Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:1-3). Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless. Thus incest, child sacrifice, homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, and the like, are still abominations before God.

(cont.)

**Reba** · 10-17-2005, 10:42 PM

(cont.)

Romans 1:18-27

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. (Rom. 1:26-27)

If there were no other passage than this which condemns homosexuality, those engaged in this lifestyle would still be, in Paul's own words, "without excuse" (Rom. 1:20). Paul's intent in Romans 1 - 3 is to show that all have sinned, Jew and Gentile alike, and turned from God. It is not an accident that the apostle begins his argument with a reference to the Creator and His creation (1:16-20). His Jewish/Christian audience would immediately have connected this with Genesis 1 - 2, which, as we have seen, tells us not only about God's created order, but also about the complementary design of male and female within that order.

In his catalogue of sins (Rom. 1:18-32) Paul lists homosexuality and lesbianism first after idolatry not because they are the most serious sins, but because they are warning signs that a violation of reason and nature has occurred. Men have inverted God's order by worshipping the creature rather than the Creator, and as a signal of this error, like the blinking red light on the dashboard of a car which is functioning improperly, God has given them up to "dishonorable desires" in the inversion of their sexual roles.29

Two main arguments are raised against the historic understanding of this passage. The first is that Paul was not referring to true homosexuality here because he stated that they exchanged "the natural function for that which is unnatural." It is argued that for those with a true homosexual orientation, that is their "natural" sexual expression. Hence he could only mean heterosexuals who were leaving their heterosexual relations for what was against their natures.30

This argument involves an amazing anachronism. That is, those saying this are attempting to place a very recent twentieth century understanding of homosexuality back into the first century mindset of Paul. People in the first century did not think in terms of "sexual orientation." It is inconceivable for Paul to have even attempted to make a psychological differentiation such as this. Concerning this, Richard Hays writes: "The idea that some individuals have an inherent disposition towards same-sex erotic attraction and are therefore constitutionally 'gay' is a modern idea of which there is no trace either in the NT or in any other Jewish or Christian writings in the ancient world."31

The second attempt to refute Paul's clear condemnation of homosexuality argues that his words "unnatural" or "against nature" do not refer to a certain created order, but rather use "nature" in the sense of "current convention" or "current custom."32 While "nature" is sometimes used in this fashion (e.g., 1 Cor. 11:14), the context of Paul's argument in Romans 1 clearly is that of creation and the natural order established by the Creator Himself (Rom. 1:20, 25). Thus Paul is asserting that homosexuality is a gross violation of God's natural design for His creation. In addition, it should be noted that the phrase "against nature" was used in connection with homosexual intercourse by both Philo and Josephus, contemporaries of Paul.33

1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... (1 Cor. 6:9, NIV)

In both 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 the apostle Paul states that those guilty of sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God. At the time Paul wrote his letters there was no word in classical, biblical, or patristic Greek which corresponded with our English term "homosexual." Instead, homosexual behavior was described (e.g., Rom. 1:26-27). The words Paul uses here — malakoi ("male prostitute") and arsenokoitai ("homosexual offenders") — have been translated in different ways. Because of this those condoning homosexuality have tried to lessen the impact of these verses, saying that all Paul was condemning was either homosexual prostitution or pederasty (i.e., men having sexual relations with boys).34

Virtually every Greek lexicon, however, including all of the standard English ones, has understood these words (especially arsenokoitai) to be referring to homosexuality.35 Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon says malakoi refers to persons who are "soft, effeminate, especially of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually."36 Likewise, arsenokoites means "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite."37

We also find these terms in classical Greek literature (e.g., Lucian and Aristotle) "sometimes applied to obviously gay persons."38 As well, if Paul were only condemning certain types of homosexuality he would certainly have specified this. Instead, he used a term directly based on the Greek Septuagint translation of the prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus:

meta arsenos ou koimethese koiten
gynaikos (Lev. 18:22)
koimethe meta arsenos koiten
gynaikos (Lev. 20:13)39

Paul, a rabbi thoroughly trained in the Torah, was certainly mindful of these Levitical condemnations and the Septuagint translation of them when he chose his wording in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy.

(cont.)

**Reba** · 10-17-2005, 10:43 PM

(cont.)

Law and Gospel

Is homosexuality natural and healthy, as the gay rights movement wants us to believe? The answer from Scripture is no, and as Christians we must not be involved in homosexuality nor be among those who, as Paul warns, "approve of those" who are engaged in it (Rom. 1:32). The Roman Catholic church is correct in stating that homosexuality is "an intrinsic moral evil."40

At the same time, though, we must reach out to all people with the love of Jesus Christ and His gospel, which alone has the power to change lives. And we must speak out against hatred and violence directed toward any group, remembering that we are all sinners, worthy only of God's judgment. We all have sin in our lives, and we are all tempted in different ways (whether it be toward homosexuality, adultery, incest, greed, violence, pridefulness, or whatever else).

Paul used the Law to show us, his readers, our sin and the fearful judgment awaiting us. But then, to those who truly desired to follow after God, he announced the good news of the Gospel: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

For all who accept this gift, including homosexuals, there is reconciliation to God, regeneration as His children, and "grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16).

Joseph P. Gudel is a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod pastor and a long-time JOURNAL contributor.

10-17-2005, 10:51 PM

Thank you Reba for providing the posts however I disagree with one quote supplied in one of the post.

Quote:

It is extremely revealing to note that almost every pro-gay group within the church shares one thing in common: they reject the Bible as being fully the Word of God. Of the above mentioned denominations which have accepted homosexuality or are sympathetic to it, none of them believe that we have God's inerrant Word in the Old and New Testaments. Likewise, the many pro-homosexual books that have come out almost all reject — or even ridicule — the church's historic stance on the inspiration and authority of Scripture.

When I see my two closest gay friends which are partners, you may call them lovers, I call them significant others, partners for life. They hold hands, sit together, drink coffee/tea on the couch with their legs interwined like a heterosexual couple would. They discuss finances, what to make for dinner and they talk about how their day went. What do I see? I see love. I do not see two gay men butt-bumping each other in lust.

I am sorry that other people do not share my views however I will respect their views. It is just so sad that people feel the need to be religious zealots and enforce biblical quotes onto the GLBT community simply because of their perspectives towards the GLBT community.

deafdyke · 10-17-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

What do I see? I see love. I do not see two gay men butt-bumping each other in lust.

EXACTLY!!!!! I can and do see why people would have issues with hedonistic lustful sexuality......but you know there are just as many hetro folks who are into sexuality, not as a celebration of love but as something totally hedonistic and lustful.
And Reba......the pro-gay groups agree with virtually everything in the Bible....They aren't saying " Jesus wasn't our savoir" or other topsy-turvey theologies ....they're just questioning ONE little aspect of the Bible....the debate on this is akin to the debate on the sin of Onaism or the role women should play in the church!

OhioRelayGuy · 10-17-2005, 11:05 PM

Very True,
two of the greatest guys i have ever met, two of my good friends are gay, one moved to NY and the other moved to Columbus, but the point is that they are such wonderful people, their sexual orientation has nothing to do with it, i dont hate or discriminate anybody for any reasons that have to do with looks, gender, sexual orientation, or anything of the like, not religion either. I think its a great thing that people are not all the same, It makes life a better thing in my opinion.

**Reba** · 10-18-2005, 12:18 AM

It doesn't matter what you or I "see"; it only matters what God ordains. God doesn't take an opinion poll before He makes His decisions.
Opinions don't change God's Word.

Some people are honest and admit that they don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, wholly from God and without error. If they don't believe what God says in the Bible, then it really doesn't matter what the Bible says; they won't accept it.
Unbelief doesn't change God's Word.

Some people believe God's Word is true but chose to ignore or disobey.
Disobedience doesn't change God's Word.

Nothing can change God's Word.

**Maria** · 10-18-2005, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

It doesn't matter what you or I "see"; it only matters what God ordains. God doesn't take an opinion poll before He makes His decisions.
Opinions don't change God's Word.

Some people are honest and admit that they don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, wholly from God and without error. If they don't believe what God says in the Bible, then it really doesn't matter what the Bible says; they won't accept it.
Unbelief doesn't change God's Word.

Some people believe God's Word is true but chose to ignore or disobey.
Disobedience doesn't change God's Word.

Nothing can change God's Word.

Amen!
We are livin' INSIDE God's Word everywhere. And, no man can change God's Word when we live IN His Word. God's Word is "The Breathin' of Life" that He gave us. I don't think some people will ever understand what "The Word" means when "The Word" became flesh unless, they EXPERIENCE God first and, then they will start to agree AFTER God open their eyes to SEE His Lights.

Crazymanw00t · 10-18-2005, 06:31 AM

Finally I was waitting for you to post some article about gay. Praise Lord.

That was a very champ article for gay people and Christian.

-------

Well, you said you saw differently with the article and your life experience with gay people but you can not see their real inside their heart. They may have high lust with bumping in bed with same sex inside their heart so that they won't show everyone because if they do and they will be rejected from society.

**Maria** · 10-18-2005, 07:35 AM

PURE:

Prov 30:5 EVERY WORD of God is PURE:

Psa 12:6 The WORDS of the LORD are PURE WORDS: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psa 119:140 Thy WORD is VERY PURE: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God.

SURE:

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast MAGNIFIED thy WORD *above* all thy name.

God's word is magnified even above His name!

Now, who is goin' to argue with God ?

10-17-2005, 07:57 PM	#162 (permalink)
Cheri Prayers for my dad. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 22,819	You don't get it Crazyman, Man this is so hilarious, It's like this, talking to a wall with him. __________________ Avoid being a victim of a stroke, a stroke can happen to anyone at anytime. You will never know how devastating this could be until you had live through it. It affects everybody. So Support Stroke Awareness to find a cure and hope.

10-17-2005, 10:16 PM	#168 (permalink)
OhioRelayGuy Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 74	Wow People who judge others like that obviously have issues within themselves that they need fixing, and t hey lash out toward people who seem like easy targets for them. Its quite sad really. People need to be more open minded about ALOT of things.

10-17-2005, 11:05 PM	#176 (permalink)
OhioRelayGuy Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Dayton Ohio Posts: 74	very true Very True, two of the greatest guys i have ever met, two of my good friends are gay, one moved to NY and the other moved to Columbus, but the point is that they are such wonderful people, their sexual orientation has nothing to do with it, i dont hate or discriminate anybody for any reasons that have to do with looks, gender, sexual orientation, or anything of the like, not religion either. I think its a great thing that people are not all the same, It makes life a better thing in my opinion.

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10-17-2005, 02:19 PM	#155 (permalink)
Crazymanw00t Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 818	First of all, stop abusing with this quote, "You are judging us!" That is wrong for you to use against me. I am not here to judge you and I don't have any power to judge you. I am here to preach you from the Bible, therefore the Bible says something that is forbid then I have to preach you to not do whatever Bible forbids. But you are saying that I am judging you and you need to remember that and where I got the information from and it came from the Bible. The Bible is written by Holy Spirit and that means it came from Lord. Lord already judged you before you were born therefore you cannot say I am judging you. You can say, "Lord stop judging me!" not "You are judging me!" Thank you very much.

10-17-2005, 05:54 PM	#160 (permalink)
deafdyke Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Trebekistan Posts: 13,082	Crazyman.....You ARE judging us! Can't you read? The VERY FACT that there is debate on whether or not homosexuality is a sin, is PROOF that it's not as clear cut as you believe God has it. YOUR God may condemn me as a sinner.....BUT MY GOD doesn't! My God/Creator/Everpresent Being DOES NOT judge me. Hey, according to some people......b/c I'm a woman I'm not allowed to speak out in church. That would be a SIN according to THEIR interpretation of the Bible. Yet, most mainline Christians don't believe it's a sin. Did you know that the term homosexuality wasn't even coined until recently? Many Biblcal scholars think that the sex condemned in the Bible was akin to sex club stuff....you know random hedonistic stuff, or about sexual abuse in Ancient Greece...... Stop judging us....stop preaching to us.....Most of us have heard it all before. We live in a country that is majority Christian after all.....and there are tons of people roaming around and performing street missionary services! What makes YOUR version of the Bible correct? Nobody but God knows. Man cannot truely know the power that is God. Man is imperfect! (the Bible even says so!)

10-17-2005, 10:04 PM	#167 (permalink)
Maria Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: WISCONSIN Posts: 10,309	Hey, hey everybody... calm down. Don't throw a dart at Jesus, please. You are grievin' Him.

10-17-2005, 10:37 PM	#170 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,130	I found this interesting analysis: http://www.equip.org/free/DH055-2.htm THE BIBLE AND HOMOSEXUALITY The Authority of Scripture It is extremely revealing to note that almost every pro-gay group within the church shares one thing in common: they reject the Bible as being fully the Word of God. Of the above mentioned denominations which have accepted homosexuality or are sympathetic to it, none of them believe that we have God's inerrant Word in the Old and New Testaments. Likewise, the many pro-homosexual books that have come out almost all reject — or even ridicule — the church's historic stance on the inspiration and authority of Scripture. Three different lines of attack on Scripture are found in the various pro-homosexual literature. The first is simply to ignore the biblical writers on the grounds that they were men who oftentimes made mistakes, and thus to reject what Scripture says as being morally authoritative. Thus John Barton states that "the Bible is not a code at all; it is a big baggy compendium of a book, full of variety and inconsistency, sometimes mistaken on matters of fact and theology alike."17 And elsewhere, in John Boswell's widely cited work, we find: "In considering the supposed influence of certain biblical passages...one must first relinquish the concept of a single book containing a uniform corpus of writings accepted as morally authoritative."18 A second attack relates to the first — that is, the biblical writers were ignorant about homosexuality. They did not know all that we do today, it is argued, and so we must judge and interpret the Bible with our modern understanding of biology, psychology, sociology, and so forth. "With the quantum leaps that have been achieved in biology, psychology, and sociology, minds in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries must subject traditional religious arguments about nature to more thorough and critical analyses."19 It is not within the purview of this article to give a detailed defense of the inspiration and reliability of the Bible.20 However, the simple response to these attacks is that both Judaism and Christianity have always held to the full authority of Scripture, as did Jesus Himself. In speaking of the Old Testament, for example, our Lord succinctly declared: "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). Parts of Scripture cannot be accepted while other parts are rejected. And in speaking of the guidance His apostles would receive, including guidance on their future writings (i.e., the New Testament), Jesus told them: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you" (John 14:26; cf. 2 Tim. 3:16). It is ludicrous to believe that the Creator of the universe, in guiding the biblical authors, was ignorant concerning the things we now know about homosexuality through modern biology, psychology, sociology, and so forth. To deny scriptural statements about homosexuality on these grounds is to completely deny God's superintendence in the authorship of Scripture. A third type of attack is to state that it really does not matter what heterosexuals think the Bible says about homosexuality, because homosexuals must interpret Scripture in view of their own experiences. Hence, in the book Building Bridges we find the statement that "the scriptures contain some insights that can be made known to the Christian community only through the testimony of lesbian and gay people." Thus homosexuals must "interpret the scriptures in the light of their own experiences."21 The problem with this is that a person could justify any type of behavior by saying that Scriptures pertaining to a particular behavior can only be understood by those who engage in such behavior (e.g., incest, adultery, fornication, and even bestiality). Those who believe this should remember the words of our Lord: "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:35). (cont.)

10-17-2005, 10:41 PM	#171 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,130	(cont.) Human Sexuality Genesis 1-2 For those who believe that statements of the Bible are normative for our daily lives, the most important question to consider regarding homosexuality is: What was God's purpose in creating human sexuality? The answer to this question is more important than any other area of discussion. From the very beginning of His revelation to humankind, God has revealed His order of creation, especially as it relates to sexuality. In Genesis 1 we are told that one purpose in creating the two sexes was procreative — through the sexual union of male and female we could reproduce the race: "Male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it" (Gen. 1:27b-28). More detail is provided in Genesis 2, however, where we are told that in addition to procreation, there is a unitive function of sexuality that has to do with fulfilling our need for companionship: "And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him'" (Gen. 2:18). Then, after God created Eve and presented her to Adam, Adam rejoiced in his God-given companion. The chapter concludes: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24-25). In this second chapter several items emerge. First, man has need for companionship: "It is not good that man should be alone" (Gen. 2:18); second, God makes provision to meet this need: the creation of woman (2:19-23). Concerning this, Samuel Dresner, Visiting Professor at Jewish Theological Seminary, states: "Woman is formed and becomes his partner. In her, man finds completion."22 And third, God ordains the institution of marriage. We are told that the man would (1) "leave his father and mother," (2) "cleave to his wife," and (3) "they shall become one flesh." Thus we find that heterosexuality is proclaimed to be God's natural order of creation. In the New Testament, whenever the subject of sexuality comes up, the heterosexual norm of marriage is always upheld. For example, Jesus, in answer to a question, quoted Genesis 1 and 2: "Have you not read, that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate" (Matt. 19:4-6). In addition, the apostle Paul reaffirms the norm of heterosexuality in several of his letters, also quoting the Genesis passages (e.g., Eph. 5:25-33; cf. 1 Cor. 7:2-3, 10-16; 1 Tim. 3:2, 12). And while some protest that we cannot take Genesis 1 and 2 as modern scientific treatises,23 these chapters nonetheless teach us spiritual truths concerning God's intended order for His creation. It is only in the heterosexual union of marriage that we find the fulfillment of God's intended order, both procreative and unitive. However, pro-homosexual writers argue that while homosexual activity in and of itself cannot be procreative it can still fulfill the unitive role of Genesis 2. In response to this Harvey writes: Consider the three common forms of sexual activity between homosexual persons. Mutual masturbation in no way constitutes a physical union.... Among female homosexuals some form of genital massage is used to bring the partner to orgasm, but this is not a physical union. In anal or oral intercourse between males the intromission of the penis in an opening of the body not meant to be used for the genital expression of sexuality cannot be called a true physical union....By way of contrast, the heterosexual union aptly symbolizes the psychological and spiritual union that ought to exist between a man and a woman.24 One does not need a Ph.D. to realize that homosexuality is anatomically aberrant; that is, there is a created biological order intended in our sexuality. As an editorialist at Harvard's Peninsula journal writes: "How can (homosexual) people be happy when they're persistently deceiving themselves, believing that it is just as natural for sperm to swim into feces as it is to swim into eggs?"25 "The true religious goal of human sexuality can be seen, not as satisfaction, but as completeness."26 This fulfillment is unattainable in homosexuality. Now that we have considered God's positive purpose in creating human sexuality, we are ready to look at biblical texts which explicitly address homosexuality. Space precludes a detailed response to pro-homosexual interpretations of these passages. The interested reader can check the resources listed in the endnotes for further reading. Leviticus 18 and 20 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Lev. 18:22) If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. (Lev. 20:13) Although these prohibitions explicitly condemn homosexuality as an abomination before God, we are told that they are not relevant today. Why? First, the pro-homosexual interpretation is that since these condemnations are contained in the "Holiness Code" of Israel, they were only applicable to ancient Israelites, to keep them separate from the pagan practices of their neighboring tribes.27 Second, parts of this code are not kept today. Letha Scanzoni and Virginia Ramey Mollenkott assert that "consistency and fairness would seem to dictate that if the Israelite Holiness Code is to be invoked against twentieth-century homosexuals, it should likewise be invoked against such common practices as eating rare steak, wearing mixed fabrics, and having marital intercourse during the menstrual period."28 Much effort need not be expended answering these objections. First, God did not condemn certain behavior for the Israelites only because Israel was to be kept separate from Canaanite practice. Otherwise, if the Canaanites did not practice child sacrifice and bestiality, would these then have been all right for the Israelites? Of course not! Having sexual relations with an animal and killing one's child are inherently wrong and evil, even when they are not related to pagan worship; they are abominations before God. And yet, these specific prohibitions also are listed in this passage, both immediately before and after the condemnation of homosexuality (Lev. 18:21-23). Other prohibitions listed in Leviticus include incest and adultery (Lev. 18:6ff; 20:10). Were these too only condemned because of the Canaanites? To argue in this fashion is dishonest and denies that there are eternal moral absolutes. What of the fact that other parts of the Holiness Code in Leviticus are not kept today? Again, the answer is simple. The Holiness Code contained different types of commands. Some were related to dietary regulations or to ceremonial cleanliness, and these have been done away with in the New Testament (Col. 2:16-17; Rom. 14:1-3). Others, though, were moral codes, and as such are timeless. Thus incest, child sacrifice, homosexuality, bestiality, adultery, and the like, are still abominations before God. (cont.)

10-17-2005, 10:42 PM	#172 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,130	(cont.) Romans 1:18-27 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. (Rom. 1:26-27) If there were no other passage than this which condemns homosexuality, those engaged in this lifestyle would still be, in Paul's own words, "without excuse" (Rom. 1:20). Paul's intent in Romans 1 - 3 is to show that all have sinned, Jew and Gentile alike, and turned from God. It is not an accident that the apostle begins his argument with a reference to the Creator and His creation (1:16-20). His Jewish/Christian audience would immediately have connected this with Genesis 1 - 2, which, as we have seen, tells us not only about God's created order, but also about the complementary design of male and female within that order. In his catalogue of sins (Rom. 1:18-32) Paul lists homosexuality and lesbianism first after idolatry not because they are the most serious sins, but because they are warning signs that a violation of reason and nature has occurred. Men have inverted God's order by worshipping the creature rather than the Creator, and as a signal of this error, like the blinking red light on the dashboard of a car which is functioning improperly, God has given them up to "dishonorable desires" in the inversion of their sexual roles.29 Two main arguments are raised against the historic understanding of this passage. The first is that Paul was not referring to true homosexuality here because he stated that they exchanged "the natural function for that which is unnatural." It is argued that for those with a true homosexual orientation, that is their "natural" sexual expression. Hence he could only mean heterosexuals who were leaving their heterosexual relations for what was against their natures.30 This argument involves an amazing anachronism. That is, those saying this are attempting to place a very recent twentieth century understanding of homosexuality back into the first century mindset of Paul. People in the first century did not think in terms of "sexual orientation." It is inconceivable for Paul to have even attempted to make a psychological differentiation such as this. Concerning this, Richard Hays writes: "The idea that some individuals have an inherent disposition towards same-sex erotic attraction and are therefore constitutionally 'gay' is a modern idea of which there is no trace either in the NT or in any other Jewish or Christian writings in the ancient world."31 The second attempt to refute Paul's clear condemnation of homosexuality argues that his words "unnatural" or "against nature" do not refer to a certain created order, but rather use "nature" in the sense of "current convention" or "current custom."32 While "nature" is sometimes used in this fashion (e.g., 1 Cor. 11:14), the context of Paul's argument in Romans 1 clearly is that of creation and the natural order established by the Creator Himself (Rom. 1:20, 25). Thus Paul is asserting that homosexuality is a gross violation of God's natural design for His creation. In addition, it should be noted that the phrase "against nature" was used in connection with homosexual intercourse by both Philo and Josephus, contemporaries of Paul.33 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... (1 Cor. 6:9, NIV) In both 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 the apostle Paul states that those guilty of sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God. At the time Paul wrote his letters there was no word in classical, biblical, or patristic Greek which corresponded with our English term "homosexual." Instead, homosexual behavior was described (e.g., Rom. 1:26-27). The words Paul uses here — malakoi ("male prostitute") and arsenokoitai ("homosexual offenders") — have been translated in different ways. Because of this those condoning homosexuality have tried to lessen the impact of these verses, saying that all Paul was condemning was either homosexual prostitution or pederasty (i.e., men having sexual relations with boys).34 Virtually every Greek lexicon, however, including all of the standard English ones, has understood these words (especially arsenokoitai) to be referring to homosexuality.35 Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon says malakoi refers to persons who are "soft, effeminate, especially of catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually."36 Likewise, arsenokoites means "a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite."37 We also find these terms in classical Greek literature (e.g., Lucian and Aristotle) "sometimes applied to obviously gay persons."38 As well, if Paul were only condemning certain types of homosexuality he would certainly have specified this. Instead, he used a term directly based on the Greek Septuagint translation of the prohibitions against homosexuality in Leviticus: meta arsenos ou koimethese koiten gynaikos (Lev. 18:22) koimethe meta arsenos koiten gynaikos (Lev. 20:13)39 Paul, a rabbi thoroughly trained in the Torah, was certainly mindful of these Levitical condemnations and the Septuagint translation of them when he chose his wording in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy. (cont.)

10-17-2005, 10:43 PM	#173 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,130	(cont.) Law and Gospel Is homosexuality natural and healthy, as the gay rights movement wants us to believe? The answer from Scripture is no, and as Christians we must not be involved in homosexuality nor be among those who, as Paul warns, "approve of those" who are engaged in it (Rom. 1:32). The Roman Catholic church is correct in stating that homosexuality is "an intrinsic moral evil."40 At the same time, though, we must reach out to all people with the love of Jesus Christ and His gospel, which alone has the power to change lives. And we must speak out against hatred and violence directed toward any group, remembering that we are all sinners, worthy only of God's judgment. We all have sin in our lives, and we are all tempted in different ways (whether it be toward homosexuality, adultery, incest, greed, violence, pridefulness, or whatever else). Paul used the Law to show us, his readers, our sin and the fearful judgment awaiting us. But then, to those who truly desired to follow after God, he announced the good news of the Gospel: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). For all who accept this gift, including homosexuals, there is reconciliation to God, regeneration as His children, and "grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16). Joseph P. Gudel is a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod pastor and a long-time JOURNAL contributor.

10-18-2005, 12:18 AM	#177 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,130	It doesn't matter what you or I "see"; it only matters what God ordains. God doesn't take an opinion poll before He makes His decisions. Opinions don't change God's Word. Some people are honest and admit that they don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, wholly from God and without error. If they don't believe what God says in the Bible, then it really doesn't matter what the Bible says; they won't accept it. Unbelief doesn't change God's Word. Some people believe God's Word is true but chose to ignore or disobey. Disobedience doesn't change God's Word. Nothing can change God's Word.

10-18-2005, 06:31 AM	#179 (permalink)
Crazymanw00t Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 818	Finally I was waitting for you to post some article about gay. Praise Lord. That was a very champ article for gay people and Christian. ------- Well, you said you saw differently with the article and your life experience with gay people but you can not see their real inside their heart. They may have high lust with bumping in bed with same sex inside their heart so that they won't show everyone because if they do and they will be rejected from society.

10-18-2005, 07:35 AM	#180 (permalink)
Maria Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: WISCONSIN Posts: 10,309	PURE: Prov 30:5 EVERY WORD of God is PURE: Psa 12:6 The WORDS of the LORD are PURE WORDS: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psa 119:140 Thy WORD is VERY PURE: therefore thy servant loveth it. Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God. SURE: Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast MAGNIFIED thy WORD above all thy name. God's word is magnified even above His name! Now, who is goin' to argue with God ?