Reba

Yes, America is the great "melting pot". For over 300 years, that melting pot blended people of all backgrounds, nationalities, religions, colors, languages, and cultures, into AMERICANS. The problem now is, immigrants into America no longer want to become AMERICANS. They want America to adjust to their languages and cultures.

When my great, great grandfather arrived from Portugal, he learned to speak English. He married an American woman from Nova Scotia. When their son was born, he gave him an "American" first name. My gggrandfather was not ashamed of his Portuguese heritage. In fact, he wrote a book about Portugal, became a translator of Portuguese for other immigrants, and eventually became a consul to Portugal, and a vice consul to Brazil (Portuguese-speaking nation).

I grew up in a neighborhood of first and second generation Italians and Greeks. They learned English, worked hard, and became AMERICANS. They didn't expect other people to learn their language and customs.

In high school, my best friend's parents were from Holland. They spoke English.

When I was in the Navy, many of my shipmates and their wives were from the Phillipines. They spoke English at work and in public.

If I were to move to another country, I would expect to learn the language and culture of that country. That is natural. Why can't we expect that of people who move to the United States?

What has happened? Has the fire of love for America gone out under the melting pot?

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Taylor

Good post Reba. I did some traveling over the past 20 hours or so and just got back. I stopped into a regular fast food restaurant to grab breakfast on the road. One thing that caught my attention was everything posted on the wall of the restaurant was in Spanish....The menu was in english, but everything on the walls..from the bulletin board to the prizes that come with certain meals to advertisements were all in Spanish. Sometimes its easy to forget we live in America. It seems to me that America is losing its culture. While I'm open to other cultures joining ours, I'm realizing that the culture I grew up with in this region is no longer my culture

Vance

I don't mind about melting pot (will explain briefly about that one below) but you are right about learning the languages.. I have a issue about it myself. If these people want to move in our country, fine but they MUST learn our language or else. I am lucky enough that Swedish people can speak/write english (I would say approx 90% of them can).. but if they couldn't, I would take some courses or something to learn how to write swedish language to communicate with them. Actually other countries have the same problem with Americans' attitude toward their languages when they visit their countries... These people included Americans have zero respect for each other's cultures & languages.

Ok about melting pot... I still don't understand why people complain about melting pot. Look, who lives in 'America' first? Native Americans. Not us. Honestly, whoever complain about 'melting pot' made me sick and angry. Native Americans LIVES in this country first before pilgrims invaded, massacred and raped Native Americans. Don't anyone dare to complain about 'melting pot' issue. If anyone want to complain about 'melting pot' then fine, move back to Europe where these people belong to in first place. It is miracle enough that God didn't punish these people for that crap talks or is he plan to? Sorry but I sure as hell hope it will be latter one.

Now I am curious about language... why not we respect this country's original language a.k.a. Native American language? Why are we speaking english right now while complain about mexicans or whoever move in and demand to have fair access when americans massacred Native Americans and destroyed their cultures & language? That's where I fail to understand why people kept contradicting themselves 24/7 about that one.

Like it or not, Native Americans are the first people who live in America. If we, americans want to talk about respect, show the respect for Native Americans first before anyone can babbling nonsense about langauges & cultures. I will say again, it is miracle that God didn't punish us for that... or it is highly probable that he plan to.

ravensteve, as usual, you babbled nonsense about homosexuality, liberals, etc etc.. There are higher AIDS rate in heterosexuals than homosexuals, I already posted the hard datas and articles... where is yours? You always babbled 24/7 without any evidences or facts to back your statements up. Good try but no cigar for you, bub.

I soon will post the new thought-provoking topic in On-topic Debates or this General Chat forum which will 'nuke' this nonsense topic to oblivion. Naturally, I will post the hard datas or articles to back me up. I will do that on Sunday when I go to the church for first time since... my parents' divorce? I couldn't remember. There is a well-known but obscure priest (named Reverend Goodhand, I believe..) who will come to give the sermon and preach at the church 50 or so miles away from my place. I heard lot about him so I want to go and see for myself. If I think what he plan to say, it definitely will aid my new thought-provoking topic (that's why I plan to post on Sunday right after his preach. He have been preach at different churches for 60 years (he's 80's) and very good friend with Mother Theresa.

I am even more sad that America's first language, Native Americans are destorying and forgetting. I don't really care about 'our' culture until we restore the country back to Native Americans then I can talk and discuss concerning about our culture but not this time. Also our culture is still alive and well in Europe anyway.

Regards,
Magatsu

Reba

Yes, Native American tribes lived in North America first. However, they lived as independent tribal groups, not as one organized political nation. Each tribe had its own language and culture. They were not united with a common language and goal. Some of them were at war with each other.


The Pilgrims that landed in Massachusetts did not invade, massacre, or rape Native Americans. The Spaniards did that, and some later French and English settlers in other areas did that as they moved westward.


There is no such thing as "Native American" language. There are Mohicans, Apache, Pequots, Navajo, Kiawah, etc. Tribes of the Plains had nothing in common with tribes of the Everglades or the Northeast.

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Banjo

The fact is... nothing stay the same forever. That applies to the languages too.

There are many, many dead languages, but they were once as common as English is. We have to adapt to the changes. Lately, I have noticed that more and more people are complaining of the Spanish language taking over several places in the south of the USA due to the immigrants from Mexico. Even Taylor mentioned going into a resturant where everything was in Spanish except for the menu. Also, Spanish is now the second most common language in the USA.

According to the 2000 Census, 28,101,052 people in America speaks Spanish at home representing 10.7% of the population in the USA. 10.7% is not a small figure.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...me=D&-_lang=en

I wouldn't dare to make language laws if I were any of you. It's not needed because it is a natural trait in many civilizations to change languages over the years.

Vance

No matter. It does not give these pilgrims the right to invade.

Native American history stated otherwise. I have the real thick history, whenever I can, I will copy or scan off to backup my statement. I also took the courses in Native American history.

I am sure that you know what I mean. I was speaking of 'general' tribal languages. My statement is still stand. Their tribal languages are the first in this country, we should've speak/write their language instead of English. As long as we didn't, we definitely have to allow these non-white people to have same access to their languages in this country as much as we do. Once we finally restore the country back to Native Americans then we can talk and discuss about our english language.

Banjo

The problem with the history textbooks is that they are filtered. I've noticed this in many textbooks, and there are many different versions of them.

Especially on the Civil War history. The truth on the Civil War is very, very distorted causing people to become confused on what the truth is.

Even in the U.K., they've "adjusted" their history books on the American Revolution in 1772, or made the textbooks hard to find because they have too much pride in themselves.

tekkmortal

I have noticed that there are few associates in my Wal-Mart store don't speak English. I think they speak Vietnamese. There are more Americans don't speak English at all now than before. I have noticed in some states like Florida and Texas are putting up bilingual signs in English and Spanish.

Reba

Why don't the immigrants have to adapt to the established language of our country? Why should we adapt to their languages?


Hmmm....which Spanish? Mexican Spanish? Spanglish? Tex-Mex? Puerto Rican Spanish? Castilian Spanish? Cuban Spanish? Peruvian Spanish? Costa Rican Spanish? See, it is not so simple.


So the other 89.3% of the population should adapt their language for the 10.7%? I don't think so.


But it is not "natural" development when the government requires Spanish forms, documents, interpreters, captions, bilingual classrooms, etc.

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Reba

They didn't invade.


Which language would that be? Navajo? Cheyenne? Pequot?
As far as writing goes, I don't believe there was a common written language at all. So what would you use for reading and writing?

Which "non-white" people are you referring to? I know that many Spanish-speaking people consider themselves "white". And what about immigrants that don't speak English or Spanish? Some are white, some are non-white. Should we include their languages too?


What exactly do you mean by "restore" the country back to Native Americans? Does that include Canada?

Should the Australians "restore" Australia back to the Aborigines?

Should the Spanish-speaking Mexicans "restore" Mexico back to Native Americans?

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Banjo

It's already happening and nobody has done anything about it. So, it's too late right now to change that. 30 million Spanish-speaking people in the USA... that is not a small number at all. But nobody is forcing you to learn Spanish. You can brush them off your shoulders if you want to.

Which English? Canadian English? British English? Scottish English? American English? Japanese English? French English? Quebecois English?

Your point is irrelevant. English is not the same in all of the English-speaking countries. Heck, even Canadian ASL and American ASL are different in many ways. But they are still able to understand each other, aren't they?

It's too late, the damage is already done. It's still spreading and it's more likely that it is more than 10.7% now. Nobody is forcing you to adapt to the language. Heck, you adapted to the ASL language and you seem to be doing just fine.

It is a natural trait that is seen in many CIVILIZATIONS, not the government. Once a civilization is tremedously influenced by a language, that's when the government changes.

If it isn't natural, then why is the Latin language dead? Because people were influenced by a new language and changed everything.

Banjo

By the way, none of you should be worried about having to adapt. As long the majority speaks English, you're safe. A language change is a very, very long process and take several generations. So, nobody will be suddenly speaking Spanish overnight.

Also, we may not be even speaking English or Spanish in 250 years, we may be instead speaking a combination of different languages into one language.

If you don't quite understand what I'm getting at, go check out the history of the Caribbean Islands. It's quite an interesting history on how the slaves from all over Africa and other places came to the islands and they couldn't understand each other. So they started to develop their own language by combining everybody's languages and turn it into a mixed-up language.

Vance

Oops, I mean non-Pilgrims (I forget to add 'non-) as such Englishmen and people like our old generations, etc etc.. Yes they did. Look at where we are right now. Where are the native americans now? End of the story. (Edit: Suggest you to read the history about 'Trail of Tears'. It will explain how our 'lovely' old generation treat Native Americans. It is literally 'invasion').

Let them work it out. Who are we decide for them? Come on. It is time for them to make the decisions for themselves. Americans really need to stop making the decisions for the 'world'. No wonder why more and more countries start to hate us (not people but Bush, his admin and certain party).

ok... Let me list by then...

Chinese
Japanese
Mexican
African
Burmese
India
Native America (First culture and first people of this country)
More...

Why are you talking about Canada? I want us to discuss about America. What do I mean.. give this country back to Native America and let them run the country. I am more than sure that they will do it much better than our current admin and pResident. After all they don't believe in senseless wars. I wonder if do you know that America based off Iroquois tribe's idea of 'equality', 'balance of power and politics' and other things to create US Constitution? Of course USA altered the history to hide their embarrassment.

Why not?

Again, why not? After all, U.N. (which included America for vote to restore the lands back) gave the lands back to Jews in Irsael so why not for Native Americans and others as well? Hmm?

Reba

We were discussing the United States. We speak American English here.


My point is that we can't change our country's language to fit the language of every group that moves here. We can't say, change to "Spanish" because there is no one way of Spanish. But we can say, keep American English as our country's language.


But is Mexican sign language the same as ASL? No.


Yes, that is American Sign Language, not Spanish Sign Language.


Because the Roman Empire government that supported Latin language collapsed.

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Banjo

I don't see you complaining about the people who use Canadian English. Yet you had to resort to that silly different Spanish versions bit.

If you speak Spanish, you speak Spanish. Regardless of the differences in different nations, they still should be able to understand what you're saying. Just like Americans and Canadians don't confuse each other with the differences in their English.

If you are suggesting a law be made on the English language. That would be a bad move. I'm not saying that you have to change to Spanish, and it won't happen overnight. But it may happen and it is a very long process and take several generations like I said. The language of English wasn't developed overnight. What I'm suggesting is that people won't be speaking either English nor Spanish in the future, it'll be more of a combination meaning it'll be a new language.

ASL isn't English either. Yet you use it.

Still, ASL isn't English. So isn't Spanish. According to your thinking, you're going against the deaf people who use ASL you interpret for since they are not willing to use English in their classrooms, doctor appointments, workplaces and more. Really, think about it. You are contradicting yourself by insisting that Americans keep English as their languages, yet you don't criticize the deaf people for not using English all of the times.

Signing is not English, period. Unless it is in the form of SEE.

Diocletian and Constantine were responsible for running the Roman Empire government into the ground. I am not at all suggesting that a law be made or that people adapt to the language.

But... the language of English in America has changed so much in the last 50 years. Even the slangs are becoming part of the language since they've been entered into the English dictionaries. No need to be ignorant on the changes in languages. It's not something to be afraid of. People shouldn't be afraid of changes.

What you're saying is irrelevant because the American English is being changed 24 hours a day, period. If not, then we wouldn't be hearing words like wassup, sup, gotta go, whattcha doing, and many more. Yes, they are a part of American English. English isn't entirely original either to begin with.

Basically, you are insisting to keep a language that changes all of the time.

Reba

My point is, there is no such one group as "Native American". There are many diverse tribes, languages and cultures in North, Central, and South America. There is no such thing as Native American language. There never existed a common Native American "country", so how could it be "restored"?


OK, so which language should we use?


Why should only the United States have to do that? Didn't "invaders" take over Canada, Mexico, Central and South America from the Native Americans also? What makes them exempt from "restoration?"

What do you mean by "restore"? Do you mean all non-Native Americans would leave? Or what? Please describe.

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Reba

Because Candian English users live in Canada. They are not trying to change the language use in the United States.


Not at all the same. Have you ever discussed this with native users of various Spanish dialects? I have, and they are usually offended to be lumped into one language and culture of "Spanish". I have had Puerto Ricans tell me that they can hardly understand Mexicans. My very white neighbors from Spain are highly insulted when they are mixed up with Costa Ricans. The Cubans in Miami, the Mexicans in Texas, and the Puerto Ricans in New York have very little in common with each other. The Spanish that is taught in our high schools has nothing to do with their languages. That is why we have a "melting pot" in the United States. If each Spanish group learns English, then they will all have a common language instead of various Spanish dialects. A common language is a unifying force to a culture.


American Sign Language is the signed language of the United States. American spoken and written English is the verbal and printed language of the United States. No contradiction. When Deaf signers write a note, they write English, not Spanish. When they read lips, they read English, not Spanish. When they fingerspell, they spell in English, not Spanish. When they read a menu, they read English, not Spanish.


Yes, but it is still English, not a different foreign language.

I didn't say that the English language can't change, as long as it stays English. Yes, we hear new, non-standard English slang and sloppy pronounciations added to our language. But that doesn't mean we have to accept foreign languages on an equal level with our language within our borders.

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Banjo

You already contradicted yourself to begin with.

Fingerspelling isn't ASL. That is why ASL isn't a fully developed language yet and never will be because deaf people still has to fingerspell many, many words and most hearing people don't understand fingerspelling to begin with.

If American Sign Language is the signed language of the United States, then why is it listed as a foreign language in many schools? I can't agree with you on ASL being the signed language of the United States. Nobody has proclaimed that. Especially when the majority of deaf people don't even sign and ASL users represent a very small percentage of the deaf population.

Most interpreters tend to overlook that fact regarding the deaf population. The numbers of ASL users that people has claimed to live in the USA has been greatly exaggerated. I have no doubt on that myself.

I'm a deaf person, I would know that myself.

From what I believe, the population of signers (including ASLers) would be around 500,000 nationwide, it may top out at around a million if lucky. The amount of pure ASLers is far smaller in population. Less than 250,000 I would say. The rest are PSE, SEE, SEE2 signers and more.

Heck, most ASLers aren't really pure ASLers because they still have to fingerspell words everyday. ASL is definitely not the signed language of the USA due to the small number of vocabularies.

Again, again, again and again... you missed the point of what I'm trying to tell you. You CANNOT prevent American English from being overtaken by a different language. Not even the language laws can prevent it. It is very possible that people will be speaking a language that would be different from our language in 250 years.

Like I said, nothing stays the same forever. Like it or not, that is life.

Roadrunner

Mod Note:

New thread created and open for discussion...per member's request.

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Taylor

As Reba pointed out, there are different dialects and there is no 'fits all' Spanish. One of my partners at work is from Peru and English is her second language (you wouldn't know it by talking to her except when she is typing and you can notice slight changes in grammar). She doesn't even have a recognizable accent. Anyhow, she can sometimes struggle when talking to somebody from Mexico. The Spanish is very different from different countries...even in different areas of the same country. I compare it to those who speak Cajun in Louisiana. Related but very, very different.

Brian

I thought Indians in the old days were mute and didn't speak at all.

I've always assumed they danced, used stones/rocks, fire and sign languages to communicate with fellow Indians and enemies? Am I wrong?

I feel somewhat embarrassed for not knowing much about the Indians though I have some Cherokee blood in me.

Banjo

No, some tribal natives did speak a language of their own.

Brian

That is interesting. Are languages of such being used by Indians nowadays?

Banjo

Hmm, I doubt any of them continue to use it on a daily basis.

Reba

Interesting:

According to Prentice Robinson, in his Easy to Use Cherokee Dictionary;

"The Cherokee language is a branch of the Iroquoian language, as are several other languages. Included in these are the Mohawk, Oneida, Seneca, Cayuga and the one added later the Tuscaroar. To [his] knowledge, none of these tribes can converse with each other in their native tongue. There are related words that are similar in root base. "
http://public.csusm.edu/raven/cherokee.dir/cher1.html

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gnarlydorkette

And so are we. We are at war against others for religions, politics, and race.


And I am surprised nobody brings up a better term to describe America-- a salad. Everybody is mingling together with their own cultural identidy but they make the whole meal yummy. That is waht America is-- everybody is different, religion, race, language, culture, etc and they all stand together to serve themselves as America. Nobody is "melting"-- I don't know Jewish or Muslism's background so how could I be "melted" with them? But of course when people think a "melting pot" they usually mean NON-AMERICAN, NON-ENGLISH SPEAKERS to MELT INTO THE AMERICAN IDEAL. I disagree with this term. I think it is highly offensive. Nobody is melting into my background as a Finnish deaf girl. I am not melting into an American hearing machostic man. The term of "melting pot" is getting old. It is like saying "negro" for the African-American. It is outdated.

gnarlydorkette

I had a very good discussion with my fiance about this thread--
He asked "How does one applies the 'American' term to deaf culture?"
I said--
"I don't think most Deaf are Americans."

Lemme explain my stance:
WHAT DOES it MEAN TO BE AN AMERICAN?
For me-- it means you are living and breathing the American ideal-- you know the pop culture, you know the government, you know your rights, you know the common language and forth on.

How does it apply to the Deaf culture?
A high precentage of Deaf didn't vote. A good precentage of them don't have a good grasp on English. Millions of deaf don't know the pop culture-- which mean the singers, the frevor over boy bands and whatnot... we are lost out on that because of a language barrier.

To answer the question "How does one applies the 'American' term to deaf culture?"
I would presume based on your arguments that according to Reba: Deaf are not Americans because we don't know English well enough or prehaps NONE.

And based on my arguments and thoughts that haven't been posted or discussed-- Some Deaf are not Americans because they are not using their rights due to their lack of knowledge what they are ALLOWED to have-- (thus they are like immigrants-- e.g. Portuguese immigrant that have NO rights to vote, no knowledge how one should be attempted in courts and more), not know the American ideal *husband: breadwinner while wife: stays home and pops out three kids and kids are active in their school sports and clubs, ah the perfect nuclear family!*, not know the general idea of pop culture and what makes America American.

So maybe the melting pot is all about filtering out those "un-American" by having several criterias: one must accept and speak English, one must acquire some ideas of the pop culture (who is hot, who is not), one must know a general history of America, one must particpate in the American Government via voting, protesting, and whatnot...

I mean... I think the voting is the main one that makes people AMERICAN. Once an immigrant is naturalized to be an American, THEY CAN VOTE. The right to VOTE is the most outstanding trait that set America different from MANY other countries. It is OUR historical reputation that we are the "first" that provides VOTING for everybody ( well, EVENTUALLY... or at least since 1920)

So prehaps it is not the English language itself that melts everybody into one big pot...? But the privellege to VOTE.
If the former one is prevailed, then it is a sad sad sad day for Deaf "unAmericans".

[EDITED: I also discussed that there are some "degrees" of Americans... some may be first-generation Americans and have some of their nationality lingering but nonetheless they are dubbed "Americans"... some are not Americans because they refrain from speaking English, partake in the voting process, or not attempting to update self with who is the hot pop singer-- or whatnot *not because of language barrier but rather a political statement to keep one's true identity or many more reasons that an indiviual may decide to choose* So don't bash me for not saying that ALL DEAF ARE NOT AMERICANS but rather some *deaf or HEARING* are Americans by being qualified for the "Ideal American" while others have varying degrees of "American" attributions. Hope I have disclaimed myself on all grounds.]

kuifje75

Reba, remember that the people in Pennsylvania and other states do speak German as well. Of course, they know English too. I read once that they had votes on which to adopt as an official language for the US, and German came in second place. Can you imagine if German came in first place, then we all would be speaking in German here instead of English?

Anyway, as for the melting pot ideals, I think it is full of bullocks. Yes, that's a British term, but who cares. Are we trying to become like Japan, to become a homogenised society where everyone thinks the same, speaks the same, wear the same, etc...? America is a diverse country, and we should cherish that. It will not hurt you guys to learn a second language, like many European children do in their grade 3 to 12 classes. Heck, Switzerland has four official languages, and some Swiss know 2 or 3 languages fluently. It never threatened the harmony of their neutral country. Same goes for Belgium who speaks French and Flemish. In America, the majority speaks English, but it WILL change over the time. I dont think that they should give up their language, but I do think that they should learn our language and that it would not hurt others to learn their language as well.

Taylor

gnarlydorkette,
Great post about culture in America and it makes a lot of sense. Of course we would consider deaf Americans as Americans, but that is a great twist that was added...something to think about.

Brian,
Yes, they are. Most will speak english as the languages are dying (and quickly). My tribe uses the language a lot, and they also offer classes for the language (many classes can be taken on-line). There are currently about 10,000 members using it regularly and it is required in order to work for their goverment.

For the hearing folks, here is what the language sounds like:
Days Of The Week
Months Of The Year
Numbers

The Lords Prayer
I've copied the text of The Lords Prayer. I doubt anyone here has the font installed on their computer to read it so I've created it as an image:

XBGMER

[Banjo mentioned "Lately, I have noticed that more and more people are complaining of the Spanish language taking over several places in the south of the USA due to the immigrants from Mexico."]I am anti- spanish speaking language and anti-bilingual. I don't ever want that english tranform to Spanish in future events. I agree 100% with what Banjo said. I don't ever want my childern of next genernations learn the spanish or bilingual.

[tekkmortal spoke "I have noticed that there are few associates in my Wal-Mart store don't speak English. I think they speak Vietnamese. There are more Americans don't speak English at all now than before. I have noticed in some states like Florida and Texas are putting up bilingual signs in English and Spanish."] tekkmortal, you are damn right about wal mart hired foreigers who work for the company, they speaking in various language and cateoage of group on the table while breaktime..

[Reba said "I know that many Spanish-speaking people consider themselves "white".] Reba, in common, that I've heard it many times. You are right saying about most spanish-speaking people wanted to pass for the white ethic as asscoate with the europe of people. but ((yawn))... they are still these non-white people period.

[Edit]: Here in California, Texas, Ariz, Florida on and on list a lot of the light-skinned Mestizos can pass for white and many get treated as white. I know a lot of mestizo enemies who hate full blooded indian-looking Mexicans, but do you guys really know who is Mexican and who isn't??

That's the way genes work among many Mexicans who look white, but have a mother, father, sister or grandparent's who are original brown indian-spairds as like origin of india. And the funny thing as long as you LOOK white, you are very much accepted by white racists.

READ ME!!!

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