who pays the piper, picks the sign.

Discussion in 'Our World, Our Culture' started by hoichi, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    That old hearing saying rings true doesn't it?
    'who pays the piper, picks the sign"
    cough
    Or something like that.
    So here we are. si5s. ive been waiting at a distance for it to be fully worked out an dtweaked. i wish i hadnt. here i am now. A complete writing system for ASL designed by native signer. it has according to the web site been now incorporate into the ASL program at Gally. which is some very good huge news as well as other deaf schools. Holy smokes!!! Finally.
    I need to rub my eyes. Can this really be? pinch me baby! I'm excited about this i am. Nothing was such, and is such the grinding pain in chops as not being able to fully write and truly write ASL in ASL. sure we have vid but thats very recent and very fickle. we need something long term here not a cheap vid file to cyber oblivion. something we can use. an information storage device which is of course what writing is. it will give us far far far better control over our cultural memory, and cultures future.
    My thoughts as i have them in ASL written in ASL for others to read and sign in ASL. this negates the need for a transition to english then back to ASL. how about that!!!
    Eventually this, if it picks up and i'm gonna do my part. This is a a very serious answer to the hearing worlds dream of a world without us Deaf. As people and as a culture. If we truly accept this as a system for ASL the hearing world wont be able to have the hearing fantasy fulfilled as fully as it wishes.
    Who pays the piper picks the sign
    Deaf culture has been at the mercy of the hearing world for ever. Gov. policy, Deaf schools, main stream, ect ect. By having a true writing system for the language it frees the language from institutions. Institutions which are gov run or gov funded. Thus we have the paymester the gov picking which sign or no sign or how sign is used in schools ect ect. with this. A full writing system for ASL It ends that in my eyes long term. Literacy can be addressed now in ASL fully.
    The development of a true writing system for any sign language has been a great need. and has been done and attempted with various rates of success. signwriting is an example, which i found to be too bulky and hard to work with. (ill get into my thoughts on it if asked)
    this may be the alternative.

    si5s - Home

    I want to discuss seriously your thoughts and the very huge ramifications of this. Given what we face and its frankly looking grim. This at least gives us a shot in the long term survival of Deaf culture. Its a positive, I cannot find a negative thing so far about this. im curious why this sytem ha sbeen choosen as opposed to sign write to integrate at gally.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  2. SBirn

    SBirn New Member

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    Who did you really think would first respond?

    You know I love your writing and I told you before you stated it I knew you were Deaf or deaf. It shows in your writing. That's not a negative and you said you were (Deaf/deaf) controlled by the hearing world. Yup and the "hearing" American culture have taken over (what else is new).

    So, what's the plan for the writing system, Hochi? Is it going to be in the structure of ASL or will it be in the structure of English? Will it take ASL and restructure it? Unconfuse me, please. (My concern about it possibly turning ASL into English, Mr. Major, is it will further dissipate the Deaf.)

    So, as a deaf chick, I need more info and I know you have it.

    -- Sheri
     
  3. Bottesini

    Bottesini Old Deaf Ranter Premium Member

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  4. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Sheri. pls check out the websight for details. it is a full, complete, writing system for ASL. in the structure of ASL. it wont happen over night but long term this will end the social literacy plm Deaf face. learning to read and write in a second language (english) even though you think and communicate in a completely different language and further a completely different mode of communication. i remember arguing with hearing teachers in deaf school over the need for such a system. and i was mocked. ridiculed, u name it. "its impossible", "why would you want to write ASL", "english is better", even friendly teachers hearing of course mocked the entire idea. they couldn't get the reason why Deaf have such literacy issues is due to the language transition. why would anyone read and write in a second language they cannot hear, after transitioning to and from they're first language? because we were forced too. we didnt have a writing system for our language.
    literacy beside, while important the other issue and even more so for the survival of the Deaf Culture is complete control of the language. a writing system is more then just a decided upon means on relaying information. a writing system is an information storage device first and foremost, it is the premier technology of civilization. it can store thoughts (these words your reading now), and have someone else read them. across the horizon of the world. . heres the thing. the crux of it. txt is by its very nature disembodied. thats the magic of it. it fossilizes ideas from you and puts them into a form separate from you for others to experience and internalize. that is completely separate from the being who crated them. txt will by its very nature take on a life of its own. When we watch vid, a move or ASL, it isnt as txt. it does store and convey information with one very important difference. the hands, face and voice are still a part of you. we cannot truly have a process of profound internalization that we do with disembowelment txt. a poem from poet signed by s by him/her can be mesmerizing. but your watching arnet you? your a spectator. sure very wrapped in the story, the poem but your watching a person, and his/her poem. txt allows participation it actualizes creation in the person internalizing the txt. . when you sign the poem to yourself or read silently or aloud some long dead poets words you are changing the txt by reading it, by signing it, it becomes yours. your thoughts infuse the txt with something of you. how ever you sign, you are now changing the txt on a metaphysical level. on a deeply personal level of consciousness. this process of self reflection, and self realization creates by extension a cultural memory. a cultural history told through the cultures very language.
    this is a very serious step in the right direction. this may just be one step. im of the mind more then one writing system can and should be developed for different sign languages. this maybe the one for ASL. im going to learn the symbol set and start my writing in it. and see where it goes.
    i understand how difficult this has been. i spent some years working out my own system for me to use for my writing. and i understand the huge plms faced in its creation. i took a veyr different approach then this. granted.
    one other thing worth repeating is gally is now incorporating this system into its ASL program. in other signs. this isn't some fly by night symbol set.
    it has wings
    just think these words to you in ASL written in ASL over a forum? the possibilities are endless. thats what a txt does. thats what the magic of language and the human genius of writing is. anything that can thought or signed can now be written. as its signed or thought. its about time.
     
  5. SBirn

    SBirn New Member

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    Ah, I see wrote the blind woman :) . Where are the disadvantages of writing in ASL? I see none. But I do see a huge advantage for me. I might actually be able to learn ASL. If I read the structure in a consistent basis (not sentence by unrelated sentence), I may likely sign it. I have a remote friend who went deaf (sorta - his low frequencies were mild) the rest of his hearing was bad - he sent me his audiogram). He's 67 and a scientist of some sort. He went out and learned ASL to compensate for his loss.

    That is absolutely wonderful. The only downfall is that more people will likely learn it. Don't knock me for that. Signing anything is rather secretive, so can be used when I don't want people to understand what I'm saying. A written ASL will likely change that. Sign is already being taught in mainstream schools. Add written ASL to that. Love it.
     
  6. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    i see no disadvantage in writting ASL. the plm was in creating a system that was not bogged down in hideous complexity to capture signs. store them, and rely them to be comprehended and again signed by someone else. a few systems have been cooked up for different goals. just like hearing languages we have many different writing systems and a couple of different paradigms of it.
    not to get into a long winded discussion on the history and development of writing systems here (ask and it will be granted.) but writing words is easy. because words are themselves disembodied. once we realized as a species we can create symbols and attach meaning to them, to produce more symbols and meaning. it was kinda easy. because this letter T. has absolutely no relation what so ever to the sound it represents. and thus we can decide the T doesn't represent the T sound and instead represents another. so on. so different languages use the roman alphabet pronouncing the symbol set different. again its rather easy with disembodied words
    ASL by its very nature had different plms to be solved. sign writing was one attempt which in my opinion failed. sure it works. but its hideous and bulky. it was never user friendly. who wants to spend time drawing hieroglyphs of ASL. do that with a novel and come back to me.
    thus we have this. si5s. its still has a complex symbol set but it seems to be allot more user friendly. im gonna run with it. see how far i can take it. the more people who learn ASL the better. yes this will aid you in retention of asl. start learning it today. you will see your asl learning curve sky rocket
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
  7. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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  8. SBirn

    SBirn New Member

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    It's astounding and to a wee one such as myself, complex. I have to get my friend who can probably understand this better involved at this point.

    Lets see if this is a correct analogy. Sign language in general (including ASL to an extent you will know better than I) has the beginnings in English. Here are some examples (and what enabled me to learn the sign - not the "sentence structure").

    1. The sign for cap is using a hand or hands to visually create the front part of a cap that covers your eyes.
    2. The sign for toilet is a shaking t - one finger.
    3. The signs for female/male is taking the face and splitting it in half. Signs for males (like father, grandfather, boy, uncle, etc.) are in the upper half.
    3a. Signs for mother, sister (bonnet string + the sign for same), girl (bonnet string) occur just at and below the nose.

    So, the basis for the new sign originates in the ASL sign and it's using end points, motion points and representations of the signed word. When I look at it, (this isn't an insult, Hochi, so please understand I'm just trying to understand) it almost reminds me of really cool representative early writing. Almost a form of hieroglyphics. How do you make a written representation of a series of ASL signs as in ASLwrite and that's the goal to do this.

    I feel I sound like I'm being stupid. I'm not stupid :) in enough areas I'm just trying to understand. I enjoy understanding. I like problem solving (that's why I loved finding bugs when I did software testing). Except in this case, I am not doing problem solving, I'm watching it mature.

    -- Sheri
     
  9. Reba

    Reba Retired Terp Premium Member

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    No, the beginnings of ASL were not English.
     
  10. SBirn

    SBirn New Member

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    I have much to learn. I'll go look it up. By the "sentence" structure of ASL, what I said didn't make any sense. I'm tired, pretty bored, and not getting out enough and it's showing. It's also why it's so difficult for me to learn it (not my stuff - ASL not being based on English). Spanish was never a problem for me but their structure is similar enough to English. Thanks for the correction, Reba.

    -- Sheri

    A little bit later ...
    When I took some courses @2004-2006, I was warned about the validity of Wikipedia. So, I ignored that. Sometimes, it's okay like on relatives of mine because I know the sources. That was a previous discussion (know thy source and state it). So, I like about.com . Felicity (don't remember her last name) put out some interesting blogs and it was really an exchange that we had offline that sort of pushed me even more to explore getting a CI. The sources at the end of the article are, I believe, very credible. Thanks for my lessons for today. So, here's something from about.com:

    http://deafness.about.com/cs/featurearticles/a/signhistory.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
  11. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    indeed get your friend involved. the more we begin to write asl in asl the better our odds.

    No ASL doesn't have its beginnings in English. sign is the natural language to the deaf anyplace. To be clear, for the sake of the thread. Very brief. ASL has a number of influences on its development (all languages do) one of which was old French sign language, which itself was influenced by Roman catholic monastic sign language, mainly that of the cistercian Order rather then the Benedictine and or cluniac. (yes i know what i'm signing about. if you want sources and good reads to nibble ask-, or go spend a week in a Traditional catholic monastic order that still signs. its very awe inspiring. wink). We have a good many signs in ASL right from catholic cisterican monasteries, signs dating to the medieval period. That have remained mostly unchanged. the sign for "late" is a good example. and if you ever heard of a great man and priest named Thomas Merton, who is buried in our lady of gesthemeni in Kentucky. He wrote a very hard to find book on the history of cistercian sign language. (yes when i'm given the chance to bring Thomas Merton up i do). Another influence would be again from the Catholic orders, this time the mendicant Franciscans. Our manual alphabet is a direct descent of the manual alphabet used by Franciscan priests to offer last rights to those soon to die that could not speak. The above i point out for a variety of reasons. 1. it never really at all is pointed out or recognized. 2. i believe it should be. 3. those influences were prior to the others and as such need to be better studied. 4. is i dig it. and love monasteries. Monks are true badasses
    those influences coupled with old French home signs and the signs being used in paris where brought to the states and in time absorbed signs from other sign system used. like marthas vinyard sign language. which is another area that needs more study im my opinion. english is not anyplace on the list really.
    hope that helps.

    Yes it does. and it is. I view this system as an early writing system for ASL. It wont be the final version nor even the only writing system. its a long over due start in its infancy.

    don't watch darlin.............dance

    (lights cigarette, drags deep............exhales)
     
  12. SBirn

    SBirn New Member

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    To Hochi the man, of course. Dancing will come again when they start up again here in Asheville. I think I scared my partner a little by even suggesting it a couple weeks ago. We took a class earlier last year and my goal was to either stand by the instructor or nab her assistant (M and I both worked at IBM in NY, so she was easy :) ). I couldn't depend on hearing the music, I had to feel it and watch what others were doing. Knowing the song also helped me along and that worked out fine. But, with the CI, the CI has to be off or it will screw up my head. I will dance (humph, I lead :) ) again.

    What's really curious (correct me anytime as others do :) if I am wrong) is the monasteries and priests pushing signing along. I don't know how it works during their long silences but it seems like silence in signing (thought it is far from silent) would help push that along.

    I sent my friend the email as soon as I said I would - right out of logging off here whenever that was. He will jump in when his son goes back overseas. I wish I had his will and brain but I'll do what I can with what I got.

    Thanks for all your patience, drags on your cig (better be a bubblegum one), and just being so Hochi.

    -- Sheri
     
  13. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    wicked.

    Again to be here, brief for the sake of the thread.
    The way it worked simply put. Once a vow of silence was accepted as a monastic rule (the Golden Rule of st Benedict of Nursa is the premier example though it had antecedents no other Rule had such an everlasting influence as did st bennies) the stage was set for something wonderful to occur. and it took hundreds of years. men, even monks, even those heading the vocation to serve Christ above all things are in the end alas fallen men. as such we dig and love loop holes. the longer in time we get from st bennies hard ass rule (it isn't even the hardest or toughest Rule in Catholic monasticism but again its the most influential) the more lax some of its points were followed. this occurred in waves and in different times took different forms. including the vow of silence.what concerns us is this..
    we have men, living in monasteries, as the west collapsed and receded into the dark ages (meaning literacy for the most part was forgotten save but for our monks). You live in a vow of silence. but you still need to communicate sometimes for some important things, like confessing your sins, receiving the sacrament of Holy Holy communion, cooking in the kitchen, working in the garden, ect. You chanted the Hours in Latin, prayed in Latin, read the Scripture sin latin. In the confines of the monastery you would of used signs not your voice for what you needed to communicate. we have a number of sign lists dating the 7th century AD. and we have sign lists all the way up to the 19 century and even the 20th. (Thomas Mertons book i mentioned) ect. The early sign lists had few signs. The latter sign lists some run into the thousands. such as the cluniac sign system. and we all know the importance of Cluny. some of these signs were simple others complex. to give you an example in an early Benedictine sign list from Bavaria the the sign for priest would be roughly equivalent to the ASL sign for crazy. (yes i always laugh at this), to symbolize the tonsure. The sign for candle would be equivalent to blowing on your index finger after you fake shoot someone. none of what i'm rambling about has much to do with ASL strictly speaking. but tag on a thousand years to the above. the change of medieval society and thus the transformation of monasticism by the challenges of a new vision, mendicant orders, the renaissance, some hundreds years later the new priestly societies after the council of Trent and so on. You now have hundreds of monastic orders most with different monastic sign systems. some like the mendicants not even monks engaged right int he street with people, with lepers, with the deaf. (pause)
    (lights cigarette, breaths deep, exhales)

    While monasticism is founded on the idea and vocation that praying the Divinum officium (divine office) and chanting it no less is the best means to pls God and seek salvation, many monks were also priests and as priests they had a vocation to not only be in the monastery but also to be engaged in this world to administer the sacraments to Christians, of this world seeking a way into the next. To be at the side of the soon dead to offer Viaticum (food for the journey), it would of been a natural idea when some priests would of in their life and work see deaf amongst themselves signing what ever home signs they possessed, it would of been a natural leap of faith to understand they too could use signs from the monastery or order for the deaf. Maybe then we can preach the gospel and administer the sacraments to the deaf with sign? the signs these priests already not only new but where already fluent in using.
    Well...... we know allot, and we no very little.
    What we do know for certain. is of course the early teachers of the deaf where themselves either monks or priests. we know the manual alphabet was used by the Franciscans to be able to read through signs the last confession of those that could not speak. we know this alphabet came to ASL. we know de lepee was a priest, *granted not a Fransiscan) we know the deaf educators in Spain where once Benedictine monks, we know through comparison that some signs in ASL are exactly the same as the signs in cistercian monastic sign language. what we do not know is the exact transmission of signs. what held sign language back from becoming what it is now is simply put was

    audism.


    Frankly the above badass monks aside. The hearing world was not ready to even consider the idea of deaf people could be more then just sad brutes unable to learn, human by body only, but not true persons. thing is. The deaf mostly are born to hearing. Thus we always have someone that knows sign, home sign ect, the point here is "know"sign by which i mean know instinctively that sign is the superior form of language and the natural form of language of the Deaf.
    the above very brief meander on my part comes to a head of course in the lives of two men both born to deaf mothers and both who even now have a lasting influence on the Deaf and sign language
    gaulledet and Bell....and thus we are where we are.
    what the hell does that have to do with ASL?
    (drags cigarette looks away, then looks back exhales.......)
    if you look deep........everything..
    the only other detail i wish to drop is one very deep and important difference between the monastic sign systems and asl is this. ASL is used and designed to allow communication as much as possible. monastic sign systems by design and definition in regards ot the vow of silence where designed to impede communication. in other words the systems we have in the monasteries are sings that where used for one purpose and nothing else. alas men bieng men, monks even fallen men, loope holes where developed and thus we have sign systems with thousands of signs yet most only official signs had maybe 40 or so on the list the rest where monastic slang monks used amongst themselves that had no holy connections. be that a sit may. once we opened Pandora box sign wont go back in. and like any language will change and grow, so on and so forth
    a more detailed and very much more detailed paper of mine (close to theses length my God) detailing the above and exploring the ramifications will be available on my websight to read when its launched.

    Thank you sheri for your time in reading my rambles. your welcome to drag my smoke any time girl.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  14. slevinski

    slevinski New Member

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    I'd assume writing a novel by hand would use handwriting rather than calligraphy.

    Writing with a word processor requires a stable script and a robust encoding model.

    I believe ASL Write is the old way to write. Gallaudet is using the new way to write. The biggest change is in the hand shapes. New details were added to existing hand shapes. New hand shapes were added to support sign languages other than ASL. I don't know about the other changes. The recent update has caused some controversy. The changes are not universally accepted.
     
  15. slevinski

    slevinski New Member

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    Thanks for the history lesson. I've never heard the phrase "badass monk". Nice description and a great story thread.

    As we've learned from Martha's Vineyard, sign is a superior form of language and the natural form of language for all humans. "Everyone here spoke sign language" is a great book.

    As I've learned from personal experience, babies naturally use sign language. My first child used 40 different signs to communicate before talking.
     
  16. slevinski

    slevinski New Member

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    The first disadvantage is "book speak". Written communication is often more convoluted than simple and direct speech. If someone learns sign through reading, it is possible that they will sign in book speak. Although, I guess this may be an improvement to signing with English structure.

    The second disadvantage is that "A literate culture operates with the implicit assumption that knowledge is closed, that Italian tourism can fit into a book." An oral culture has an implicit assumption that knowledge is open and that there are many truths. An open-ended view of knowledge does not accept that all truth can be found in a book or will someday be put into a book. Writing causes a subtle shift in thinking about knowledge and truth.
     
  17. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    it was a sly remark not meant for serious discussion, but since we are here, writing a novel these days would be done ina word processor i reckon.





    yes i am aware that.
     
  18. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, i think monks are badass, dunno if im the one who "coined it" but i use it.

    it sure is and heres another one for you to nibble
    Original Signs
     
  19. hoichi

    hoichi Well-Known Member

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    It can be, but often does not translate to always or must be. "If" is just that an IF. if someone learns sign or english for that matter only through reading then it is indeed possible that individual will have only bookish learning or a bookish language. In the end its a small disadvantage. but it cuts both ways, if a person only learns slang or just conversational english or just conversational ASL then that person will only have conversational english or conversational ASL. in both cases the language is not mastered. The difference though is master of a language can be greatly aided through the use of an information storage technology known as a script a writing system. Literacy is a powerful tool, that shouldn't be overlooked due to a "maybe someone might just develop book speak". The advantage to learning to read and write in your first language as opposed to another language is of course the mastery on a very personal level of your first language. Which is one of the reasons why ASL needs such a script of its own. I wonder how well my english would now be, if instead of learning to write english when i could hear, i instead was forced to learn Chinese, yet only used english to communicate with others around me. reading and writing Chinese. How would my vocab be? or use of the language? That is of course what the Deaf face, actually we face something even more drastic. as we cant hear the language we are forced to learn to read and wright, rather then leaning to read and write our own language we can and do use. . and the literacy levels show the results of such a failed pedagogue. Its what i faced when i was sent to a Deaf gov residential school. Your first language with everyone is ASL, yet your reading and writing in an unrelated language English. Now i became deaf at 9 if i was born Deaf what do you think my odds for literacy would be?
    you need to weigh the advantages to the disadvantages both on a personal level what you did above, and then on a cultural level.

    No you are in error. literate culture operates on the implicit assumption that knowledge CAN be stored in a closed form. that a certain facet of Italian tourism CAN be found in A book and many other different facets of it can be found in MANY other different books." The map is not the terrain. The "book" is only a physical carrier to the knowledge stored and contained within the script. the magic isnt in the physical object of the codexes, its in the script, and the human mind that gives it and remembers its meaning to form other ways to have it put forth meaning to others who read it. further literate culture has existed prior to the invention of the codexes, hence the rules are the same, be it a scroll, papyrus, wall etching or later, codexes or later still a computer tablet. ect.

    We are discussing an information storage technology a script to be used to render ASL into a written form. We are not discussing "truth" or what ever "truth" is to who ever wants to hold to a certain"truth". Thats a very interesting discussion, but it only muddies the waters here. [/QUOTE]

    No one here claims all "truth" can be found in A ( is a singular) book. or will one day be put in A (is a singular) book. We are discussing a language ASL. and a script si5s which has been designed for it. You can put anything in any book with any script, lies, truth, porn, what ever, "truth" what ever the hell that may mean to you or I does not matter in the discussion. what does matter is this

    Oral cultures are, as has been demonstrated through the march of folly of history, at a very distinct disadvantage for their survival when they are facing literate cultures seeking their end. period.

    Im open to learning here, All you have to do is cite an oral culture that when faced with a n aggressive literate one came out the winner. further this entire thread, This discussion proves the validity of having a script that is by its nature disembodied form the users of it. See in person we could chat about this, but it would be a conversation, In conversational language. You or i wouldn't spend the time to be very precise and articulate with our use of words. We would chat about this, if forced debate it within some rules, in the end we wouldn't do this. look at words think of structure, mine our minds for words to fit what we want to convey, edit edit edit, try again edit, yes that works no that doesn't ok i'm being understood, re read, edit now ill press send. this reply to you has taken over 40 minutes of time and thought. you and i wouldn't sit staring at each other for 40 minutes waiting for the reply in person would we?
    thats what a script allows. it allows precision, and it allows deep personal introspection of, if needed deeply personal topics. just being oral and conversational does not do this. by its nature it cannot do what a script can. one other thing a script does it allows you and I to read these words, in this case my words to you, coming from another being me for you to read to yourself in your own inner thought "voice" to yourself to understand what i wish to convey to you. in your own inner "voice", whether you release it or not, thats a very very powerful thing your doing right now. Me speaking or signing the above to you, in person wont wont really do that. you will hear my voice (my voice) not yours, you see my hands (my hands) not yours, you see my face (not yours). a script puts these words right into the center of your being. and when you read them you do so with your voice or inner thought. not mine. that is what a script does.
    one other thing a script does is it stores cultural memory and history. Would i know that the Hittite palace of Hatusas used Deaf as security to lock its windows or used the deaf in certain religious and political rituals without the Hittites rendering and storing that information in script? no i would not. I would have no idea. But i know something of it albeit very little it. Because they told us in their script. Which we thousands of years after they were annihilated slowly are deciphering.
    Writing, the invention of it, has indeed had a profound impact on man. it is one of our greatest inventions. ASL needs it now more then ever considering the very real and present danger our culture faces. it would be the pinnacle of folly for us to do otherwise
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  20. slevinski

    slevinski New Member

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    Thanks for the great response about the importance of literacy in one's primary language. The 2 negatives I listed are the only coherent arguments against a sign script that I have read.

    Learning a language through reading and writing is a benefit!

    The change from an oral culture to a literate culture is significant and controversial. The biggest hurdles are the lack of a fully developed script, lack of teaching material, and lack of software support. Once literacy becomes established, it can quickly build upon itself and the controversy will disappear for most.

    It sounds like you are saying that Deaf as a literate culture have a greater chance of survival compared to an oral culture only supported by video.

    I believe the use of video or animation is a poor substitute for both a hand written script and a computer encoded script.
     

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