We need to change?

Cloggy said:
Ahh, bashing people is OK again.....
...... can I join?

Flip,
Anything I said in that quote you didn't understand? It's OK to be clueless at times. It happens to some people.... It's OK, nobody will think less of you... (If that would be possible at all..)

Instead of insulting me, you could have asked about the part you don't understand ! Or, if you cannot express yourself, you could have asked Jillio to help you!

As a wise man said...
Click to expand...

Flip doesn't need my help. He does quite well on his own.
 
Cloggy said:
You're correct. It is a generation that is deaf with CI.
But these will fall more in the category of deaf people than Deaf people, purely because of the fact that sign needs not to be the first language. I can see my daughter being fully integrated in a society where communication is done using sound. She knows sign but there is no use for it at the moment. She might want to use it again later.

In a sense, "hearing impaired" used to be split up in HOH and deaf. Now, they are split up in HOH, deaf and CI. And the latter will establish their own culture. In fact, it's allready happening...
And from what I have read, it is seldom that CI and Deaf culture are compatible, and that's a pitty.

And your argument that "because the need is still there for those who find their way late" is incorrect. Fewer deaf people will "find their way" because of the success of CI. Also, the hearing people that become deaf now have the possibility to hear again, and will therefore not need to find the way to Deaf culture.

The only way for Deaf culture to survive is to embrace CI technology.

Regarding "deaf culture is everywhere..".. Norway has 4 million people. The 4th town of the country has a whopping 100.000 people. That's enough to have a group of deaf people getting together, and having coffee, but it is not Deaf culture..
Click to expand...

The only language that the a deaf child can acquire naturally and without problems is the language of signs. That incudes all categories of deaf/Deaf/ HH. And Sweden has finally gottent he idea, as they make available to any hearing parent of a deaf child professional instruction in sign language as soon as the child has been diagnosed. They look at the hisroty of failure in the oral camps, and the sociological manaifestation of idviduation and creation of "disability", and say, "Hey, maybe we better back up and rethink this "oral at all costs" philosophy."
 
rick48 said:
Cloggy,

That's just his modus operandi, to engage in adhominem attacks. He adds nothing to the discussion. Best to just ignore him/her/it or whatever.
Rick
Click to expand...

As we noticed in this thread, Cloggy was caught lying about his situation in Norway. Revealing a lie cannot be counted as an "adhominem attack". Both of you are of course free to ignore me, and nothing wrong with that, except that the silence can be loud sometimes.

It's not a good sign that Cloggy lies to back up conclusions. Is it due to lack of empirical evidence and support from professonials in psychology, education and language?
 
flip,

Cloggy born and raised in Holland before move to live in Norway with his family. It doesn´t mean that he know everything 100% about Norway country. It takes him time to familiar his adopt country.
 
Liebling:-))) said:
flip,

Cloggy born and raised in Holland before move to live in Norway with his family. It doesn´t mean that he know everything 100% about Norway country. It takes him time to familiar his adopt country.
Click to expand...

Sure.. But I understand from earlier posts, that Cloggy seems to know what goes on in his area and is an informed man. I also noticed Cloggy started a thread where he states that "Misinformation and lying should not be allowed", while he misinform us in this thread. Either he made this up or lied, he is misinforming us in this thread, breaking his own rules.

This is not about Cloggy as a person, but his rethorics and opinions on CI.
 
flip said:
As we noticed in this thread, Cloggy was caught lying about his situation in Norway. Revealing a lie cannot be counted as an "adhominem attack". Both of you are of course free to ignore me, and nothing wrong with that, except that the silence can be loud sometimes.

It's not a good sign that Cloggy lies to back up conclusions. Is it due to lack of empirical evidence and support from professonials in psychology, education and language?
Click to expand...

"As we noticed in this thread......" (getting something ideas from elsewhere...???) well, that's just you, interpreting a difference in a point of view to a lie.
Guess anyone not agreeing with you is lying....

If a deaf church, school and soccorteam 1000 kilometers away from your home town would define access to "Deaf culture" then I lied in your eyes.
To me, that's not access Deaf culture.. And 50 deaf persons in a church is not deaf culture either..... in my opinion.
Tell me... is there Deaf culture in Alaska?

Anything else I "lied" about??
 
Having never lied in AllDeaf (and elsewhere) I was wondering where the accusation came from....
I said:
Cloggy said:
..................Regarding "deaf culture is everywhere..".. Norway has 4 million people. The 4th town of the country has a whopping 100.000 people. That's enough to have a group of deaf people getting together, and having coffee, but it is not Deaf culture..
Click to expand...

Show me where I lied....

Apart from that, like I said, When the 4th biggest town is 1000km away, how are you going to explain "deaf culture is everywhere.."??

Looking forward to an apology and some more explanation.
 
Cloggy said:
"As we noticed in this thread......" (getting something ideas from elsewhere...???) well, that's just you, interpreting a difference in a point of view to a lie.
Guess anyone not agreeing with you is lying....

If a deaf church, school and soccorteam 1000 kilometers away from your home town would define access to "Deaf culture" then I lied in your eyes.
To me, that's not access Deaf culture.. And 50 deaf persons in a church is not deaf culture either..... in my opinion.
Tell me... is there Deaf culture in Alaska?

Anything else I "lied" about??
Click to expand...

I apologize for using "we", thanks for correting me on that one.

I never said you lied about your access to a deaf culture 1000 km from a city in Norway?? And you have larger cities closer to you if you live 1000 km from Stavanger, by the way.

Again, let me ask you: are you honestly thinking there is no deaf culture in a city, that among things, have a deaf school, deaf club, deaf football club and deaf church?

As I belive you are not truly interested in wether it is deaf culture in alaska or not, I guess this is a rethoric question, where you belive there is no deaf culture in alaska?

In less than ten seconds, I found this on google.

"There is a Deaf community in Anchorage, and we encourage you to connect with it. The Alaska Association of the Deaf, for example, has headquarters in Anchorage, and there should be several social clubs and groups that welcome you. You can get up-to-date information at the Alaska State Library, too."

Pasted from Responses

It's also a State Deaf School in Anchorage.

This is another case where it looks to me that you are making up and spreading misinformation. The difference between making up, and lie can be small, that's why I don't think it's good manners to make up things, especially on serious matters that parents are strugling to understand.
 
Cloggy said:
Having never lied in AllDeaf (and elsewhere) I was wondering where the accusation came from....
I said:

Show me where I lied....

Apart from that, like I said, When the 4th biggest town is 1000km away, how are you going to explain "deaf culture is everywhere.."??

Looking forward to an apology and some more explanation.
Click to expand...

I never stated that "deaf culture is everywhere..". I think you misunderstood parts of my reply. No big deal, can happen to everyone, me too.

For the rest, see my other reply.
 
flip said:
I apologize for using "we", thanks for correting me on that one.

I never said you lied about your access to a deaf culture 1000 km from a city in Norway?? And you have larger cities closer to you if you live 1000 km from Stavanger, by the way.

Again, let me ask you: are you honestly thinking there is no deaf culture in a city, that among things, have a deaf school, deaf club, deaf football club and deaf church?

As I belive you are not truly interested in wether it is deaf culture in alaska or not, I guess this is a rethoric question, where you belive there is no deaf culture in alaska?

In less than ten seconds, I found this on google.

"There is a Deaf community in Anchorage, and we encourage you to connect with it. The Alaska Association of the Deaf, for example, has headquarters in Anchorage, and there should be several social clubs and groups that welcome you. You can get up-to-date information at the Alaska State Library, too."

Pasted from Responses

It's also a State Deaf School in Anchorage.

This is another case where it looks to me that you are making up and spreading misinformation. The difference between making up, and lie can be small, that's why I don't think it's good manners to make up things, especially on serious matters that parents are strugling to understand.
Click to expand...

Well, sorry to misunderstand...
If 1 deaf school in Anchorage means that Deaf culture is everywhere...
I'm sure deaf people in Tanana, Alaska will be thrilled to hear this...

And, you found out where you thought I lied?
 
Last edited:
Cloggy said:
Well, sorry to misunderstand...
If 1 deaf school in Anchorage means that Deaf culture is everywhere...
I'm sure deaf people in Tanana, Alaska will be thrilled to hear this...

And, you found out where you thought I lied?
Click to expand...

"The 4th town of the country has a whopping 100.000 people. That's enough to have a group of deaf people getting together, and having coffee, but it is not Deaf culture.."

This statement by you, is an example of misinformation.

No one is saying deaf culture is everywhere, Cloggy. You don't, and I don't. I don't know who is telling you this, or why you are so defensive about this. No one is claiming Tanana have a deaf community/culture, except you.
 
flip said:
"The 4th town of the country has a whopping 100.000 people. That's enough to have a group of deaf people getting together, and having coffee, but it is not Deaf culture.."

This statement by you, is an example of misinformation.

No one is saying deaf culture is everywhere, Cloggy. You don't, and I don't. I don't know who is telling you this, or why you are so defensive about this. No one is claiming Tanana have a deaf community/culture, except you.
Click to expand...

So that's how you interpret things to make it a lie... you make your own reality... suddenly I said that Tanana has a deaf culture....

So, from "lying" we're down to "misinformation"...

Yeh, thought so...

So, I guess, even though you acknowledge that I didnt't lie, no apology for calling me a lyer??

I know, it easy calling someone a lyer. Admitting such a "mistake" takes a real person....

Does this strategy work in real life as well for you?
 
Cloggy said:
So that's how you interpret things to make it a lie... you make your own reality... suddenly I said that Tanana has a deaf culture....
Click to expand...

"If 1 deaf school in Anchorage means that Deaf culture is everywhere...
I'm sure deaf people in Tanana, Alaska will be thrilled to hear this..."

Eh.. what did you say here then? It's your conclusion that Tanana got a deaf culture, not mine. It's third time I tell you: I never said deaf culture is everywhere... I have to ask if you really understand english?

Cloggy said:
So, from "lying" we're down to "misinformation"...

Yeh, thought so...

So, I guess, even though you acknowledge that I didnt't lie, no apology for calling me a lyer??

I know, it easy calling someone a lyer. Admitting such a "mistake" takes a real person....

Does this strategy work in real life as well for you?
Click to expand...

I never said you did not lie? As you are dwindling into semantics, I just try to follow you, with words like "make up", "misinformation", and so on. It's not important to me which one you prefer, or what the difference is to you.

You still haven't explained how come that Stavanger and Anchorage does not have a deaf culture, when they got deaf communities involved in sports, religion, politics, culture, social events and education. That's why I still accuse you for lying/misinforming/making up. By still not explaining how you make conclusions like this, you are leaving me with the recent impression of your arguments.
 
am not fan of residential deaf school. I don't mind day school for the deaf so kids can bonds with family instead of "dorm mother/father" who might abuse. Kids get to go home everyday after school in either day school or mainstreaming.
Click to expand...
Boult, sorry, but I don't think its as clearcut as that. What if the family isn't stable, what if they're homeless or wicked poor or come from other not really desirable situtions? Not every kid comes from a middle class stable nonabusive family. The dorm father and mother might abuse.......but so might the family! Besides, there are ways to make sure that houseparents don't abuse (CORI checks etc etc)
 
But these will fall more in the category of deaf people than Deaf people, purely because of the fact that sign needs not to be the first language. I can see my daughter being fully integrated in a society where communication is done using sound. She knows sign but there is no use for it at the moment. She might want to use it again later.

In a sense, "hearing impaired" used to be split up in HOH and deaf. Now, they are split up in HOH, deaf and CI. And the latter will establish their own culture. In fact, it's allready happening...
And from what I have read, it is seldom that CI and Deaf culture are compatible, and that's a pitty.

And your argument that "because the need is still there for those who find their way late" is incorrect. Fewer deaf people will "find their way" because of the success of CI. Also, the hearing people that become deaf now have the possibility to hear again, and will therefore not need to find the way to Deaf culture.
Click to expand...
Cloggy, not nessarily.............Deaf doesn't nessarily mean "has ASL as their first language." LOTS of us here, ID as Deaf, but came to ASL late. You are assuming that sucess with CI is global and allows total and complete access to the hearing world. Therefore, implanted people only need hoh/hearing health stuff . Not nessarily............LOTS and LOTS of hoh and oral deafies discover the Deaf culture and Sign, and for them its a really cool awesome resource. It's still happening.
 
deafdyke said:
Boult, sorry, but I don't think its as clearcut as that. What if the family isn't stable, what if they're homeless or wicked poor or come from other not really desirable situtions? Not every kid comes from a middle class stable nonabusive family. The dorm father and mother might abuse.......but so might the family! Besides, there are ways to make sure that houseparents don't abuse (CORI checks etc etc)
Click to expand...

I know of toooo many cases of deaf children not getting the support from their families..more neglect happening than abuse..it can just as be damaging. However, there are stricter laws about dorm counselors being alone with children or background checks so the chances of them abusing children are so minimal these days.

There are some cases that I know when dorm life is really necessary for the children. I am happy that those children get to flourish in a language rich enviornment. However, yes there are some chidlren that could be better off with their families but due to distance, they stay in the dorms. Those I feel a strong empathy for cuz I cant imagine how tough it must be for the parents.
 
jillio said:
The only language that the a deaf child can acquire naturally and without problems is the language of signs. That incudes all categories of deaf/Deaf/ HH. And Sweden has finally gottent he idea, as they make available to any hearing parent of a deaf child professional instruction in sign language as soon as the child has been diagnosed. They look at the hisroty of failure in the oral camps, and the sociological manaifestation of idviduation and creation of "disability", and say, "Hey, maybe we better back up and rethink this "oral at all costs" philosophy."
Click to expand...

Another reason why I like Sweden so damn much I wish I could live there. :D

(BTW I have Swede flag in my room :D :D - nothing against America but Sweden is my idea of a model country)

deafdyke said:
Cloggy, not nessarily.............Deaf doesn't nessarily mean "has ASL as their first language." LOTS of us here, ID as Deaf, but came to ASL late. You are assuming that sucess with CI is global and allows total and complete access to the hearing world. Therefore, implanted people only need hoh/hearing health stuff . Not nessarily............LOTS and LOTS of hoh and oral deafies discover the Deaf culture and Sign, and for them its a really cool awesome resource. It's still happening.
Click to expand...

So true, I am just now really getting into the ASL of things and learning about the Deaf culture that I should have been a part of to begin with. :D

This is juicy, please continue discussing......:afro:
 
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