We need to change?

flip said:
This book is a classic, and a good read about the darker side of humankind, thanks for bringing up this book. It's a sad and dramatic story, and I am sure Bertling is telling the truth based on his personal experience. I have myself seen really bad stuff myself in residental schools, both deaf and hearing. We need this kind of stories, it's a part of history that not should be hidden, so we can avoid this to happen.

For a overall understanding of deafness, I would recommend the books Jillio describes. Padden is refreshing, and Marshall is a smart guy, I wish I was as un-biased as he is! The best if of course to go out and have a beer with deaf people :)
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Now, I am really intrigued. Since my exposure to Deaf culture has only been limited to about 10 years now and I havent really seen anything about it that is so dark or indicated that it has an ugly side. Maybe it is cuz when I went to Gallaudet, I was in grad school so I hung out with a huge diverse of deaf and hearing people and work at a deaf school as a teacher. Sure, I see some problems like gossip, backstabbing, anger, no common sense, and more but I saw that in the hearing world too so I could never understood why some people say they want nothing to do with the Deaf Culture or community. Maybe this book will help me see the darker side of it and help me understand better? :dunno:
 
shel90 said:
Now, I am really intrigued. Since my exposure to Deaf culture has only been limited to about 10 years now and I havent really seen anything about it that is so dark or indicated that it has an ugly side. Maybe it is cuz when I went to Gallaudet, I was in grad school so I hung out with a huge diverse of deaf and hearing people and work at a deaf school as a teacher. Sure, I see some problems like gossip, backstabbing, anger, no common sense, and more but I saw that in the hearing world too so I could never understood why some people say they want nothing to do with the Deaf Culture or community. Maybe this book will help me see the darker side of it and help me understand better? :dunno:
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deaf residential school living and college living is entirely different
I am sure you know why...

for example you lived with your family till you went to college..
so with family, your parent bear responsibility for you then in college, you are on your own and you become responsible for yourself.

so in residential setting, kids are under care of "dorm parent" who bears responsibility but artificial parent. (different from guardian parent) and once they leave that setting, they have to be responsible for themselves.

So you won't see what's happening in college living environment that is dark as it is in residential setting.

me... been there and seen that as well gotten taste of it.

Books like Deaf Heritage won't tell you the dark side of residential living. they just suppress it.

I am not fan of residential deaf school. I don't mind day school for the deaf so kids can bonds with family instead of "dorm mother/father" who might abuse. Kids get to go home everyday after school in either day school or mainstreaming.
 
shel90 said:
Now, I am really intrigued. Since my exposure to Deaf culture has only been limited to about 10 years now and I havent really seen anything about it that is so dark or indicated that it has an ugly side. Maybe it is cuz when I went to Gallaudet, I was in grad school so I hung out with a huge diverse of deaf and hearing people and work at a deaf school as a teacher. Sure, I see some problems like gossip, backstabbing, anger, no common sense, and more but I saw that in the hearing world too so I could never understood why some people say they want nothing to do with the Deaf Culture or community. Maybe this book will help me see the darker side of it and help me understand better? :dunno:
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This book is more about residental school in elementary and high school, less universities. I have another book here about backstabbing and mean people in the univiersity community, that perhaps fit Gallaudet better, though there is no deaf people in this book :) In residental schools in the early days, deaf kids often had limited communication with adults, and we could se "lord of the flies" communities develop. But there are also good experiences from residental schools. I have interviewed deaf adults about their experiences in residental schools, and their experiences varied wildly. The title of the book "sacrified to the deaf culture" is perhaps a bit misleading.

But Tom Bertling have my sympathy, even if he is bitter and sometimes try to convince me that most members of a global culture are evil and mean.
 
Boult said:
Books like Deaf Heritage won't tell you the dark side of residential living. they just suppress it.
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Deaf Heritage is a different kind of book, meant to tell fascinating and cozy stories about deafness. If Deaf Heritage is supressing the dark side of residental schools, then Tom Bertlings book is really supressing the positive and bright side of deaf culture.

I hope you don't think Deaf Heritage suck, just because it have positive stories?
 
flip said:
Deaf Heritage is a different kind of book, meant to tell fascinating and cozy stories about deafness. If Deaf Heritage is supressing the dark side of residental schools, then Tom Bertlings book is really supressing the positive and bright side of deaf culture.

I hope you don't think Deaf Heritage suck, just because it have positive stories?
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Well this book is a "history" book hence the word "heritage" (yeah "deaf history passed down thru generation")

but many Deaf like Kalista doesn't want Tom's books to be read by anyone who want to know about bad side of Deaf Culture. You just saw her post!

I liked Deaf Heritage and it was a book I had to buy for my class at NTID/RIT.

Ok how about if I switch the title; "Understanding Deaf Culture" ? Of course that book does mention Tom's book but just to say that Tom's book attacked the Deaf Culture in negative way.
 
jillio said:
..........
But it is okay to sacrifice a child for the hearing culture?
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I cannot think of any reason to sacrifice a child.... Why would you insinuate that?

What I refuse to do is limit my childs possibilities in order to prevent a reduction in members of Deaf society.
This (inevitable) reduction in the amount of Deaf people sometimes seems to be the reason why some (Deaf) people are against CI.
 
Cloggy said:
I cannot think of any reason to sacrifice a child.... Why would you insinuate that?

What I refuse to do is limit my childs possibilities in order to prevent a reduction in members of Deaf society.
This (inevitable) reduction in the amount of Deaf people sometimes seems to be the reason why some (Deaf) people are against CI.
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I can understand what u r saying. Of course nobody wants to limit your child..just only broadening her experiences and since she is deaf, by exposing her to the Deaf community if there is one near your home will give her an opportunity to understand that there r other deaf people and that Deaf people can do anything. I was never esposed to the Deaf comunity and I was taught that deaf people who used ASL were low functioning so I grew up looking down on them even my own brother! That view I really have a disain for.

Like I was exposed to the Spanish community growing up, I feel a connection with the Spanish culture. When I moved to DC, I was exposed to the Black comunity..it was a shock (don't forget I got exposed to the Deaf community too) but it definitely helped me to broaden my views on diversity. Best of all, while I was a grad student at Gally, I met people from all over the world. I was thankful to have the exposure.

Because your daughter is deaf, she may feel a special connection with thedeaf community. Maybe or maybe not but what's the harm? That's all I ask of parents of deaf children..to expose them to sign language and the deaf community. Never I did say to take the children away from the Hearing culture or deny them oral language. In fact most deaf people I know have been exposed to both. It is rare for me to meet a deaf person who has been completely isolated.

But as many of u stated, it is the parents' decisions. Just making a suggestion.
 
The real problem is from the hearing screening to the CI implantation, there is no deaf people to stand in the way, to present a proactive deterrent, to educate the parents, of the deaf community's feelings of the CI.

Who's fault is this? Not the parents!

Richard
 
Boult said:
Well this book is a "history" book hence the word "heritage" (yeah "deaf history passed down thru generation")

but many Deaf like Kalista doesn't want Tom's books to be read by anyone who want to know about bad side of Deaf Culture. You just saw her post!

I liked Deaf Heritage and it was a book I had to buy for my class at NTID/RIT.

Ok how about if I switch the title; "Understanding Deaf Culture" ? Of course that book does mention Tom's book but just to say that Tom's book attacked the Deaf Culture in negative way.
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Great you like Deaf Heritage :) It's a surprising and good book yeah.
 
Cloggy said:
I cannot think of any reason to sacrifice a child.... Why would you insinuate that?

What I refuse to do is limit my childs possibilities in order to prevent a reduction in members of Deaf society.
This (inevitable) reduction in the amount of Deaf people sometimes seems to be the reason why some (Deaf) people are against CI.
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This guy must have a dead elk inside his skull... Don't feed this troll.
 
Cloggy said:
I cannot think of any reason to sacrifice a child.... Why would you insinuate that?

What I refuse to do is limit my childs possibilities in order to prevent a reduction in members of Deaf society.
This (inevitable) reduction in the amount of Deaf people sometimes seems to be the reason why some (Deaf) people are against CI.
Click to expand...

Trust me, the mere technological advance in CI will not reduce the number of deaf individuals. We just create a population that is deaf with CI. Unfortunately, due to CI, and the atitude of many hearing parents, these children find their way into the Deaf community later than should be for healthy development of not only language, but identity and mental and emotional well being. However, on the inverse, because the need is still there for those who find their way late, the Deaf Community will survive and thrive.
 
flip said:
This guy must have a dead elk inside his skull... Don't feed this troll.
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jillio said:
:eek: That would explain a lot!:giggle:
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Ahh, bashing people is OK again.....
...... can I join?

Flip,
Anything I said in that quote you didn't understand? It's OK to be clueless at times. It happens to some people.... It's OK, nobody will think less of you... (If that would be possible at all..)

Instead of insulting me, you could have asked about the part you don't understand ! Or, if you cannot express yourself, you could have asked Jillio to help you!

As a wise man said...
 
jillio said:
Trust me, the mere technological advance in CI will not reduce the number of deaf individuals. We just create a population that is deaf with CI. Unfortunately, due to CI, and the atitude of many hearing parents, these children find their way into the Deaf community later than should be for healthy development of not only language, but identity and mental and emotional well being. However, on the inverse, because the need is still there for those who find their way late, the Deaf Community will survive and thrive.
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You're correct. It is a generation that is deaf with CI.
But these will fall more in the category of deaf people than Deaf people, purely because of the fact that sign needs not to be the first language. I can see my daughter being fully integrated in a society where communication is done using sound. She knows sign but there is no use for it at the moment. She might want to use it again later.

In a sense, "hearing impaired" used to be split up in HOH and deaf. Now, they are split up in HOH, deaf and CI. And the latter will establish their own culture. In fact, it's allready happening...
And from what I have read, it is seldom that CI and Deaf culture are compatible, and that's a pitty.

And your argument that "because the need is still there for those who find their way late" is incorrect. Fewer deaf people will "find their way" because of the success of CI. Also, the hearing people that become deaf now have the possibility to hear again, and will therefore not need to find the way to Deaf culture.

The only way for Deaf culture to survive is to embrace CI technology.

Regarding "deaf culture is everywhere..".. Norway has 4 million people. The 4th town of the country has a whopping 100.000 people. That's enough to have a group of deaf people getting together, and having coffee, but it is not Deaf culture..
 
Nesmuth said:
The real problem is from the hearing screening to the CI implantation, there is no deaf people to stand in the way, to present a proactive deterrent, to educate the parents, of the deaf community's feelings of the CI.

Who's fault is this? Not the parents!

Richard
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What willbe the message...???

My guess is that it is about "no need to operate" and "sign language"....


Something like:

"Hi, I'm ####."
Translation from sign to speach..
"I hear your child is deaf. That's OK, look at me, I'm deaf and I'm doing great."
Translation from sign to speach..
"Just let your child be deaf. Start using sign. It will be wonderful, and children learn it quicker than speech anyway."
Translation from sign to speach..
"So, everything will be fine as long as you and the child learn sign."
Translation from sign to speach..
"Also, her grandparents need to learn sign."
Translation from sign to speach..
"And of course all your friends"
Translation from sign to speach..
"And she can go to a school where the use sign only, because after all, thats the natural language of all the deaf."
Translation from sign to speach..
"I just wanted to say tell you this, because otherwise the only thing you will hear is that CI will allow your deaf child to hear."
Translation from sign to speach..
"And they will tell you that there is no need for sign language because it is detected so early...."
Translation from sign to speach..
".... and that the child will develop hearing like any other child...
Translation from sign to speach..
"Thank you for your attention... you see, I can communicated without problems with anyone.."
Translation from sign to speach..
 
Cloggy said:
Ahh, bashing people is OK again.....
...... can I join?

Flip,
Anything I said in that quote you didn't understand? It's OK to be clueless at times. It happens to some people.... It's OK, nobody will think less of you... (If that would be possible at all..)

Instead of insulting me, you could have asked about the part you don't understand ! Or, if you cannot express yourself, you could have asked Jillio to help you!

As a wise man said...
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Sorry, but I couldn't resist.. It was just so obvious how captious your post was.

But.., you claim a city with 100.000 people in Norway, have no deaf culture in a later post here. The 4th largest city in Norway is Stavanger, with a population of around 100.000, according to wikipedia. Just by a quick google search, one can notice Stavanger have a deaf school, deaf church, deaf club and a deaf football team.

So those guys in Stavanger is just having a cup of coffe at their school, church, sport events and club? Very interesting place you live in...
 
Cloggy said:
Ahh, bashing people is OK again.....
...... can I join?

Flip,
Anything I said in that quote you didn't understand? It's OK to be clueless at times. It happens to some people.... It's OK, nobody will think less of you... (If that would be possible at all..)

Instead of insulting me, you could have asked about the part you don't understand ! Or, if you cannot express yourself, you could have asked Jillio to help you!

As a wise man said...
Click to expand...


Cloggy,

That's just his modus operandi, to engage in adhominem attacks. He adds nothing to the discussion. Best to just ignore him/her/it or whatever.
Rick
 
nah! the goal of speech therapy or AVT is to produce intelligible speech regardless of deaf voice or none... that's all.

So I bet they were intelligible speech when your kids hear those deaf voice?

deaf voices is not important, intelligible speech is important regardless
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Actually no Boult.........Auditory verbal therapists claim that AV'd kids develop "nautral" speech quality.
Auditory-Verbal
An additional benefit of this focus on audition is that children who follow the auditory-verbal approach have “normal inflection patterns and a pleasing voice in contrast to the ‘deaf’ voice quality usually associated with severe hearing impairments” (Pollack et al., 1997,)
Also, define intelligable speech. Most dhh people do have somewhat intelligable speech. It doesn't mean that everyone can understand them.Most hearing people get used to deaf vocies very fast, but it is hard for lots of them to understand deaf speech.........and I mean Yesterday I went to a reunion of people I hadn't seen in awhile. They could understand me, but not as well as during the time that I knew them. Even my friend Kelsey had to keep asking me to repeat what I said.
Re: Child Sacrificed to the Deaf Culture. Yes, there are downsides and bad things about the Deaf Culture,.........BUT those problems aren't limited to Deaf culture. Most other human cultures have those problems as well.
Also, Tom Bertling's book was a complete bash on Deaf culture. He's basicly like one of those "I hate everything about this particualr movement or culture" types.
In addition, it was by a POSTLINGALLY deaf person. I remember he used his experiance to claim that hoh (whether audilogically or medically) are closer to hearing. I really do think many of his problems were more due to being a postie. I would take whatever he wrote about with a grain of salt. I remember one time at the old Deafnotes, he claimed that he'd been "orally educated" simply b/c he had some speech therapy services.
 
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