We need to change?

I read both sides between Shel90 and Jillios. I understand and support both sides.

What I thought about CI issues still remain. I do not change my mind about CI on babies and toddlers but I has to accept parent's decision for their child because the child is their, not mine. I have to learn to accept their view why they are for to implant their babies/toddlers. All what I am here to give them advice what and why I am not for to implant babies and children and know my experiences from collect CI users and the parents of CI children in real life. It's parent's decision either they want to take my advice or not. It's up to them.

I do not change for everyone but myself.
 
Kalista said:
......... Why bother with drilling through those babies's head. Unbelievable, many parents are not acceptable their Deaf healthy babies. *big sigh*
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If you are insinuating that holes are drilled through the skull, the you still have no clue about CI.
And after so many explanations on how it really works, I guess you just want to hold on to your mis-information.

And that's fine. Just don't put it in here!

An just allowing for the remote chance that you are interested.... have a look here for starters.
 
Shel,

Good start of a topic....

shel90 said:
.....................
I can understand that if some parents have the oral attitude and if they say their deaf child doesnt need the deaf community nor doesnt need sign language, that can be hurtful to us......QUOTE]

I think you got it right there...

Many emotions can be traced back to "it is bad for us." and the child is forgotten.

If Lotte being able to head, means that there will be a person less for the Deaf culture..... that's fine by me. I refuse to sacrifice a child in order to sustain Deaf Culture.
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Cloggy said:
Shel,

Good start of a topic....

shel90 said:
.....................
I can understand that if some parents have the oral attitude and if they say their deaf child doesnt need the deaf community nor doesnt need sign language, that can be hurtful to us......
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I think you got it right there...

Many emotions can be traced back to "it is bad for us." and the child is forgotten.

If Lotte being able to head, means that there will be a person less for the Deaf culture..... that's fine by me. I refuse to sacrifice a child in order to sustain Deaf Culture.
Click to expand...

That remind me of this book...
Amazon.com: A Child Sacrificed to the Deaf Culture: Books: Tom Bertling
 
Cloggy said:
Shel,

Good start of a topic....

shel90 said:
.....................
I can understand that if some parents have the oral attitude and if they say their deaf child doesnt need the deaf community nor doesnt need sign language, that can be hurtful to us......QUOTE]

I think you got it right there...

Many emotions can be traced back to "it is bad for us." and the child is forgotten.

If Lotte being able to head, means that there will be a person less for the Deaf culture..... that's fine by me. I refuse to sacrifice a child in order to sustain Deaf Culture.
Click to expand...

If that's how u want to view it, that it is a sacrifice. :ugh3: Like it is such a bad thing?? Why view it that way? The hearing world has some bad people in it too so I guess I will sacrifice my kids to the hearing world? It is silly to say things like that.
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Cloggy said:
If you are insinuating that holes are drilled through the skull, the you still have no clue about CI.
And after so many explanations on how it really works, I guess you just want to hold on to your mis-information.

And that's fine. Just don't put it in here!

An just allowing for the remote chance that you are interested.... have a look here for starters.[/QUOTE

I guess this is a perfect example of two extreme views on the opposite sides, heh?

Why continue to argue with each other if there is no point to it?
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shel90 said:
:)

FYI, there will always be hostility in the Deaf community but that doesnt mean all of us are like that. So many of us grew up feeling very oppressed and isolated by hearing people especially our parents so there are some deep deep scars..some people will get over their scars and some are unable to. I know few of my deaf friends who grew up oral like me and their experiences were so much worse than mine that it really scarred them so deeply and their anger and hatred towards the hearing world is not funny. It is up to them when they are ready to address them but I dont push them. Many of us dont want to see your and other parents' kids here grow up with those same scars so yea, tempers flare when parents become defensive or dont seem like they are really listening. Nobody really goes out of their way to bash the parents right away as far as I know since I have been a member here. The bashing usually starts when some of the parents make very strong comments against the values that are important to us. That's from what I have seen but maybe I could be wrong.
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I think I've said this before, but I believe on of the reasons my brother is so independent and self-assured is because he got a CI at age 9, tried it, didn't care for it, and by having "hearing" and realizing he didn't want to hear, he learned to be happier with who he is.

But you're so right, Shel. The deaf community needs to be there for deaf people who get CIs, if needed, because remove the CI (externally) and the person is still deaf. Rather than encourging people NOT to get them, maybe it's better to encourage them to ALSO learn to sign, and give them a community which embraces them. :)
 
Cloggy said:
Shel,

Good start of a topic....

shel90 said:
.....................
I can understand that if some parents have the oral attitude and if they say their deaf child doesnt need the deaf community nor doesnt need sign language, that can be hurtful to us......QUOTE]

I think you got it right there...

Many emotions can be traced back to "it is bad for us." and the child is forgotten.

If Lotte being able to head, means that there will be a person less for the Deaf culture..... that's fine by me. I refuse to sacrifice a child in order to sustain Deaf Culture.
Click to expand...

But it is okay to sacrifice a child for the hearing culture?
Click to expand...
 
flip,

"Deaf people have the right to be strong, and if they want, gentle, and that means that we will allways have people like Kayla123 and Rick48 around, that whines and goes into a strange state of blaming and denial everytime they meet someone that disagree with them."

Blame whom, for what? In denial of what?

Please elaborate and be specific.
Rick
 
Liebling:-))) said:
I read both sides between Shel90 and Jillios. I understand and support both sides.

What I thought about CI issues still remain. I do not change my mind about CI on babies and toddlers but I has to accept parent's decision for their child because the child is their, not mine. I have to learn to accept their view why they are for to implant their babies/toddlers. All what I am here to give them advice what and why I am not for to implant babies and children and know my experiences from collect CI users and the parents of CI children in real life. It's parent's decision either they want to take my advice or not. It's up to them.

I do not change for everyone but myself.
Click to expand...

Nobody is asking u to change your views about CIs but if u already have a good attitude to any parents of deaf children and welcome them without any hositility then no worries there. I used to be hostile to the parents immediately for that reason but I need to change that. However, my view on implanting children still remains the same..just wont hold it against the parents anymroe. :)
 
Parents, I am not telling u what to do but just offerering a *peace* flag. Just thought it would be nice if our children whether deaf or hearing can be exposed to both cultures.

Today, my class went on a field trip..there is 11 kids in my class and we went to the Nature Center so our students were in the building all excited about the animals and mock forest indoors. There was a mother with her 2 children..all hearing and the mother looked at my students in horror and grabbed her two kids and walked away so fast so I thought "f**ck it", I went after her and asked her if any of my students did anything to offend her. She was like "I dont know what they are doing with their hands..pls.. I need to leave her quick..I am sorry." Come on!! my students were just conversing with each other about the different animals and habitats and yes some of them used their voices whichwere probably not so quiet. The mother didnt need to act like that soooo obviously. People in general need more education about deaf people. Would be nice if there was a deaf culture or awareness unit in the curriculm for every public school so the children wont run away whenever they see children signing like that mother and her two kids did. It wasnt the first time. Two of my studnets asked me why did they look so scared? What was I supposed to say? Hit them with a hard dose of reality or what? I just told them the truth but in a gentle way and they wanted to apologize to the mother. I was thinking..no no no..it is NOT your fault!!! But we all had a great day with the nature hike and discussing animals and their habitats. :)
 
rick48 said:
Good book, read it many years ago, and very interesting perspective from someone who experienced it firsthand. I remember he used to post on various forums, does he still?
Rick
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Yeah and still? no
 
shel90 said:
Parents, I am not telling u what to do but just offerering a *peace* flag. Just thought it would be nice if our children whether deaf or hearing can be exposed to both cultures.

Today, my class went on a field trip..there is 11 kids in my class and we went to the Nature Center so our students were in the building all excited about the animals and mock forest indoors. There was a mother with her 2 children..all hearing and the mother looked at my students in horror and grabbed her two kids and walked away so fast so I thought "f**ck it", I went after her and asked her if any of my students did anything to offend her. She was like "I dont know what they are doing with their hands..pls.. I need to leave her quick..I am sorry." Come on!! my students were just conversing with each other about the different animals and habitats and yes some of them used their voices whichwere probably not so quiet. The mother didnt need to act like that soooo obviously. People in general need more education about deaf people. Would be nice if there was a deaf culture or awareness unit in the curriculm for every public school so the children wont run away whenever they see children signing like that mother and her two kids did. It wasnt the first time. Two of my studnets asked me why did they look so scared? What was I supposed to say? Hit them with a hard dose of reality or what? I just told them the truth but in a gentle way and they wanted to apologize to the mother. I was thinking..no no no..it is NOT your fault!!! But we all had a great day with the nature hike and discussing animals and their habitats. :)
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:gpost: :gpost: :gpost: :gpost: :gpost:
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Did you tell the woman that your students are deaf/hoh? If the students were speaking, they cannot always control their voices.
 
Kalista said:
Tom Bertling is a pathetic author. I disagree with his perspective, we had been heat debates for the years ! I never like his perspective!

Do not read that book !
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Is he deaf himself? I could tell by the title that it was obvious he must have a strong hearing view. Iam really curious to read it. What kind of stiff did he say about Deaf culture?

U know..there is a Hearing culture so why isn't there the same respect for Deaf culture? Sure the Deaf culture is flawed but so is the Hearing culture too. Iam trying to understand why is Deaf culture so looked down? We r humans too and we make mistakes and act stupid from time to time but no reason to look down on us so this whole sacrificing the child to the Deaf culture is really an immature thing to say. BTW..I was being sarcastic about sacrificing my children to Hearing culture so don't take what I said literally.
 
shel90 said:
Is he deaf himself? I could tell by the title that it was obvious he must have a strong hearing view. Iam really curious to read it. What kind of stiff did he say about Deaf culture?
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He's deaf himself and comes from a deaf family.

more books from him;
Tom Bertling - Google Book Search

If you click the link to amazon(in my previous post), you can read all of the reviews. some positives, some negatives.
 
shel90 said:
Is he deaf himself? I could tell by the title that it was obvious he must have a strong hearing view. Iam really curious to read it. What kind of stiff did he say about Deaf culture?

U know..there is a Hearing culture so why isn't there the same respect for Deaf culture? Sure the Deaf culture is flawed but so is the Hearing culture too. Iam trying to understand why is Deaf culture so looked down? We r humans too and we make mistakes and act stupid from time to time but no reason to look down on us so this whole sacrificing the child to the Deaf culture is really an immature thing to say. BTW..I was being sarcastic about sacrificing my children to Hearing culture so don't take what I said literally.
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This is just a hypothesis, but one I have come to after years of participant observation--Deaf culture is disdained by the hearing becasue it make the Deaf, as individuals and a cohesive group, visable. History has shown us that the hearing would much rather that the Deaf assimilate into hearing culure, or remain separate and apart. When Deaf culture is used to empower individuals, and allow them to participate in the daily activities of the hearing while still retaining their own identity, it forces the hearing culutre to recognize and deal with something they do not understand and cannot imagine--deafness. The hearing are forced to revise many preconceived ideas of what it is to be deaf, and this is uncomfortable for them.
 
Boult said:
That remind me of this book...
Amazon.com: A Child Sacrificed to the Deaf Culture: Books: Tom Bertling
Click to expand...

This book is a classic, and a good read about the darker side of humankind, thanks for bringing up this book. It's a sad and dramatic story, and I am sure Bertling is telling the truth based on his personal experience. I have myself seen really bad stuff myself in residental schools, both deaf and hearing. We need this kind of stories, it's a part of history that not should be hidden, so we can avoid this to happen.

For a overall understanding of deafness, I would recommend the books Jillio describes. Padden is refreshing, and Marshall is a smart guy, I wish I was as un-biased as he is! The best if of course to go out and have a beer with deaf people :)
 
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