Should ASL be reserve to culturally Deaf people only?

KarissaMann05 said:
Wirelessly posted





There are more negative views in the Bible, too.

That is why medieval people killed disabled babies, abounded them, and so on. Cos they used to think disabled people are useless. Sometimes people because they thought deaf people are demonic proceeded by evil spirits, if I remember correctly...

It had been done for years and years. But it is not because of Christianity, elder generations did view disabled people negatively before Christians.

That is all I know...
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Really? I have never really read the Bible deeply but now I think I will.
 
GrendelQ said:
good idea.
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Yea, it is...just need a sosphicated network. I will try to contact my friend who was doing that. I lost in touch with him and then ask him how he did that.

Miss Delectable would be a good source as she seems to get a database of Deaf related news globally.
 
Ah!! There is the answer! That's where all the negative views of the deaf started from!!! The BIBLE!

Someone's gotta write a letter to God....
 
Wirelessly posted

Shel90 -- yep. You can go to Google and type Bible Verses, then find something link and to type "deaf" or "handclapped" in the search bar.
 
GrendelQ said:
Those who learn spoken language-only can still use an interpreter to reach the ASL world, just as those who use ASL-only can use an interpreter to reach those who hear/speak.
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From a cultural point of view... I've never really seen an oral deaf person with an interpreter going to a deaf event or to participate in a community event of deaf people. As much as I hate to say this, but the ugly truth is that generally the deaf community isn't too accepting of deaf people with oral skills. Which is why almost none of my deaf friend know I can speak fluently.

As a deaf person, I've never felt comfortable in the skin of someone who functions well in the hearing world...but the deaf world is one place I can truly feel comfortable and be myself.
 
I don't think I am fluent in spoken English. I can talk, but I don't prounounce words correctly. And my conversation with people usually feel empty. Probably because I don't express myself well (I do think visually, I don't always think in words unless I'm writing) . Also, I'm too busy trying to understand what the other person is saying. I'll ask questions to keep them talking though. Just about everyone, including my family, told me they don't know me well. My younger hearing sister told me this too, and we grew up playing together. I was shocked to hear this because I grew up with them, talked to them, and every single one of them told me this. - that they don't know anything about me.
 
I didn't know my own sisters' names until I was 11.

Even to this day, I don't know what our family pets' names were.
 
There's so much more than just speaking, articulating words. You have to have social skills with it...and verbal cues, etc. Conversation skills are really complicated...everything from precise word choice, use of figurative language, informal vs formal words/phrases, tone, inflection, eye contact, etc. are involved...

And we're trying so hard to figure out if the person is saying coat or boat? Yeah, it's easy to lose track of the other stuff. No wonder I was "shy" when I was growing up...and when I started to be involved with the deaf world, my parents said I had a personality changed...I started to talk nonstop! I told them, I was never shy...I was withdrawn and isolated. Conversations were just too damn hard.
 
deafbajagal said:
From a cultural point of view... I've never really seen an oral deaf person with an interpreter going to a deaf event or to participate in a community event of deaf people. As much as I hate to say this, but the ugly truth is that generally the deaf community isn't too accepting of deaf people with oral skills. Which is why almost none of my deaf friend know I can speak fluently.

As a deaf person, I've never felt comfortable in the skin of someone who functions well in the hearing world...but the deaf world is one place I can truly feel comfortable and be myself.
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That's a good point, I guess I'm just accustomed to interacting in an environment that provides interpreters for the hearing or oral deaf people rather than for the ASL-using deaf. At my daughter's school, communication is often conducted in ASL, with accommodation for the hearing or not-so fluent deaf.
 
Grendel, do you mean reverse 'terps? Intead of terping English to ASL, they terp ASL to English?

Do you really not see people CONSTANTLY saying that if a child is oral only they will end up messed up with the following list of problem........

Do you really not see people calling me audist?

Do you really not see people saying that children should not be implanted?

Do you really not see people saying that ASL should be mandatory?

Do you really think that I have not thought of every single problem you mention?

And again, I am not afraid that my daughter will not develop spoken language. How could I be, she already has. She has gained (at last formal testing) 4 years in less than 2.
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1)I see a lot of cricticism of oral only yes......but those criticisms are legitimate, since it seems like the pro oral onliests tend to sweep problems about oral only under the rug (oh they'll be fine, they'll have more access to the hearing world :roll:) Even audilogically hoh kids and superstars often end up with those problems. Oral only is not perfect. I do think if you had witnessed the psychological and social emotinal damage seen in oral only you would see where we are coming from. Stuff like never fitting into the hearing world socially, being made fun of or being thought intellectucally disabled b/c of our voices, (you have NO fucking CLUE how many kids at my mainstream school treated me like someone with Down's Syndrome. You have NO fucking clue what it's like to be isolated socially and emotionally, even thou the "experts" said you would have access to the hearing world, never really knowing what is going on, the only hearing friends you have are at a superfical level, Oral abilty DOES give you a lot of skills...but NOBODY is saying that we gotta do ASL only. We are advocating for a FULL TOOLBOX! Fluent speech and Sign abilty for ALL dhh kids, early on. (ie for EI and preschool/kindergarten) That way the KIDS themselves can discover which method is best for them.
2) I do see people calling you audist. Granted you're not an AG BAD style audist, but you are still idolizing the hearing world, mainstreaming and speech and hearing as supioror to Deaf Schools and Sign language.
3) I really haven't noticed that at all. Most of us are very pro implant as an option. If you think this is bad, you should have been around ten years ago. Even "libral" deafies were anti CI
4) We think that dhh kids need to be introduced to it early on, to prevent possible speech and language issues. Also, so that they can capitalize on their nautral visual processing. Also, to help them socially. Even AG Bell super stars have major issues in this area.
5) I have nothing more to say
6) Yes, your daughter has developed spoken language abilty. Nobody is saying she won't But she still is behind compared to a hearing or even hoh kid right? You're afraid she won't be on par with her spoken language. Most dhh kids can develop very decent spoken language abilty, but the question is......can they develop on par/sophsicated language abilty? This isn't the old days like where oral eighth graders could only understand the concept " Abraham Lincoln was a tall man" or where a three year old only had a handful of spoken words. But still the question remains if they will be able to develop on par/sophisticated spoken language. Some will yes, but virtually all the research has indicated that while oral kids are doing better then they were, they're still behind with their spoken language compared to their hearing peers.
 
Well, if deaf who are not culturally deaf learned sign language they would become culturally deaf. They would be using the same language and communication methods that unites deaf people in the deaf community. So Yeah, they should learn sign language and should use it; sign language should not be exclusive, only for certain Deaf.
 
deafdyke said:
Grendel, do you mean reverse 'terps? Intead of terping English to ASL, they terp ASL to English?


1)I see a lot of cricticism of oral only yes......but those criticisms are legitimate, since it seems like the pro oral onliests tend to sweep problems about oral only under the rug (oh they'll be fine, they'll have more access to the hearing world :roll:) Even audilogically hoh kids and superstars often end up with those problems. Oral only is not perfect. I do think if you had witnessed the psychological and social emotinal damage seen in oral only you would see where we are coming from. Stuff like never fitting into the hearing world socially, being made fun of or being thought intellectucally disabled b/c of our voices, (you have NO fucking CLUE how many kids at my mainstream school treated me like someone with Down's Syndrome. You have NO fucking clue what it's like to be isolated socially and emotionally, even thou the "experts" said you would have access to the hearing world, never really knowing what is going on, the only hearing friends you have are at a superfical level, Oral abilty DOES give you a lot of skills...but NOBODY is saying that we gotta do ASL only. We are advocating for a FULL TOOLBOX! Fluent speech and Sign abilty for ALL dhh kids, early on. (ie for EI and preschool/kindergarten) That way the KIDS themselves can discover which method is best for them.
2) I do see people calling you audist. Granted you're not an AG BAD style audist, but you are still idolizing the hearing world, mainstreaming and speech and hearing as supioror to Deaf Schools and Sign language.
3) I really haven't noticed that at all. Most of us are very pro implant as an option. If you think this is bad, you should have been around ten years ago. Even "libral" deafies were anti CI
4) We think that dhh kids need to be introduced to it early on, to prevent possible speech and language issues. Also, so that they can capitalize on their nautral visual processing. Also, to help them socially. Even AG Bell super stars have major issues in this area.
5) I have nothing more to say
6) Yes, your daughter has developed spoken language abilty. Nobody is saying she won't But she still is behind compared to a hearing or even hoh kid right? You're afraid she won't be on par with her spoken language. Most dhh kids can develop very decent spoken language abilty, but the question is......can they develop on par/sophsicated language abilty? This isn't the old days like where oral eighth graders could only understand the concept " Abraham Lincoln was a tall man" or where a three year old only had a handful of spoken words. But still the question remains if they will be able to develop on par/sophisticated spoken language. Some will yes, but virtually all the research has indicated that while oral kids are doing better then they were, they're still behind with their spoken language compared to their hearing peers.
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Again, why do you possibly think that I am pro-mainstreaming? Where have I EVER said that? My daughter has never spent a single day in a mainstream class. She curently attends a deaf school and always has. I continuously advocate for exposure to ASL and other deaf kids. Why do you ALWAYS say otherwise?
 
deafdyke said:
Grendel, do you mean reverse 'terps? Intead of terping English to ASL, they terp ASL to English?

1)I see a lot of cricticism of oral only yes......but those criticisms are legitimate, since it seems like the pro oral onliests tend to sweep problems about oral only under the rug (oh they'll be fine, they'll have more access to the hearing world :roll:) Even audilogically hoh kids and superstars often end up with those problems. Oral only is not perfect. I do think if you had witnessed the psychological and social emotinal damage seen in oral only you would see where we are coming from. Stuff like never fitting into the hearing world socially, being made fun of or being thought intellectucally disabled b/c of our voices, (you have NO fucking CLUE how many kids at my mainstream school treated me like someone with Down's Syndrome. You have NO fucking clue what it's like to be isolated socially and emotionally, even thou the "experts" said you would have access to the hearing world, never really knowing what is going on, the only hearing friends you have are at a superfical level, Oral abilty DOES give you a lot of skills...but NOBODY is saying that we gotta do ASL only. We are advocating for a FULL TOOLBOX! Fluent speech and Sign abilty for ALL dhh kids, early on. (ie for EI and preschool/kindergarten) That way the KIDS themselves can discover which method is best for them.
2) I do see people calling you audist. Granted you're not an AG BAD style audist, but you are still idolizing the hearing world, mainstreaming and speech and hearing as supioror to Deaf Schools and Sign language.
3) I really haven't noticed that at all. Most of us are very pro implant as an option. If you think this is bad, you should have been around ten years ago. Even "libral" deafies were anti CI
4) We think that dhh kids need to be introduced to it early on, to prevent possible speech and language issues. Also, so that they can capitalize on their nautral visual processing. Also, to help them socially. Even AG Bell super stars have major issues in this area.
5) I have nothing more to say
6) Yes, your daughter has developed spoken language abilty. Nobody is saying she won't But she still is behind compared to a hearing or even hoh kid right? You're afraid she won't be on par with her spoken language. Most dhh kids can develop very decent spoken language abilty, but the question is......can they develop on par/sophsicated language abilty? This isn't the old days like where oral eighth graders could only understand the concept " Abraham Lincoln was a tall man" or where a three year old only had a handful of spoken words. But still the question remains if they will be able to develop on par/sophisticated spoken language. Some will yes, but virtually all the research has indicated that while oral kids are doing better then they were, they're still behind with their spoken language compared to their hearing peers.
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Yes, DD. I guess I've never encountered terps that do just one way interpretation, unless it's a presentation without Q&A. It's more that the accommodation is made for hearing/speaking participants in the event/meeting/activity, and most of the interpretation is from ASL to English.

But, ummm, about the rest of the message? I'm sort of taken aback by it -- I'm not idolizing mainstreaming (you know where Li goes to school and that she's an ASL-user, right?) and the rest is sort of out of the blue. I'm not afraid of her spoken language development, she's actually doing as well or better than hearing kids her age right now in many language areas (a finding which surprised me, and a testament to a great school -- also a great data point showing that ASL doesn't suck the potential for developing English right out of a kid's head).
 
But, ummm, about the rest of the message? I'm sort of taken aback by it -- I'm not idolizing mainstreaming (you know where Li goes to school and that she's an ASL-user, right?) and the rest is sort of out of the blue. I'm not afraid of her spoken language development, she's actually doing as well or better than hearing kids her age right now in many language areas (a finding which surprised me, and a testament to a great school -- also a great data point showing that ASL doesn't suck the potential for developing English right out of a kid's head).
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That message was for fair joure.....Sorry for the confusion LOL. WHOOPS! I really do think you're doing an AWESOME job with Li -Li....and b/c she's developed sophisciated spoken language , even without an oral only hyperfocus, or stuff like AVT! That proves you don't have to have oral only as your sole focus, in order for development of oral abilty! :) It's still kind of early, and hearing kids are still developing spoken language abilty (eg vocab) in elementary.....but its awesome she is doing so well!!!! I bet she'd compare to a hoh DODA in her bilingal language skills! I'm also VERY psyched that you're planning to keep her in the Deaf School for a bit longer. Bit of advice....keep her in Deaf School, and then slowly introduce the concept of mainstreaming,and see what she likes best as a placement. Oh, and it actually seems kind of common for placement needs to change. Like she might be mostly mainstreamed around fourth grade, but then decide that she wants to go off to live at ASD or TLC or MSSD for middle school/high school. (and I DO think that many CI and hoh kids may decide to opt for that since middle school and high school are horrendous) But do you think that the mainstream is idolized in general as an educational placement? What I mean by mainstream is solotaire mainstreaming. I mean I do think that there are some students who can really thrive in that kind of placement.....but it does seem like hearing parents idolize the neighborhood school, as The Best Placement. Which is really kind of sad.
Again, why do you possibly think that I am pro-mainstreaming? Where have I EVER said that? My daughter has never spent a single day in a mainstream class. She curently attends a deaf school and always has. I continuously advocate for exposure to ASL and other deaf kids.
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Your daughter hasn't spent any time in a mainstream class. Which is good. ....wait, I thought she attended a self contained classroom for oral deaf? That is still technically mainstream. It's not solotaire mainstreaming, no.....The reason why there are still Deaf Schools and Dhh programs AND charter schools for the Deaf is b/c parents are so frustrated with trying to get decent accomondations for their dhh kids from the mainstream. Trust me. It is beyond frustrating trying to get
You are not "Oh Deaf Schools suck so I'm just gonna send my kid to a mainstream school" pro mainstreaming......BUT you do insistute in your posts that orally educated dhh kids who are mainstreamed will get a better education or that the mainstream is all sunshine and light. You seem to think that all kids in the mainstream are on par with their hearing peers, and only need minimal accomondations. They do have special ed in the mainstream you know.....and dhh kids can be and are lumped in there with LD kids or "dumping ground" kids. (I have seen it time and again, even nowadays) We have a couple of posters (from a few years ago) who are parents of dhh formally solotaire mainstreamed kids. Things conspired so that they sent their kids to schools or programs for the Deaf...and they can't say enough good things about dhh programs or schools! It's good that you're advocating for ASL and exposure to other dhh kids..(and just as an aside, I hope you're saying that development of spoken language can go along with ASL) ..But it does seem with your rants and frustrations that you're beginning to sound like a " Yay! CI is going to send all dhh kids to the mainstream, and that will mean the end of Deaf culture and ASL" type of AG Bell parent.
 
faire_jour said:
Yes, and that is why we choose to avoid all the things that deaf people complain about their therapies.
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Then what may I ask is your reason for coming on AD in the first place if you deliberately avoid the experiences of those of us who are d/Deaf? Do you think we enjoy sharing the difficult experiences just to have a pity-party? I think most of us are sharing because we want to make sure this does not happen to children today. You can't say that it doesn't happen, or that all the old methods and attitudes have been eliminated. There is still a lot to gain from the experiences of the past, we learn what to carry on with and what to be wary of.
 
BecLak said:
Then what may I ask is your reason for coming on AD in the first place if you deliberately avoid the experiences of those of us who are d/Deaf?
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Beclak, that's quite a stretch. FJ's "to avoid all the things that deaf people complain about their therapies" is not the same as your interpretation: "deliberately avoid the experiences of those of us who are d/Deaf."
 
BecLak said:
Then what may I ask is your reason for coming on AD in the first place if you deliberately avoid the experiences of those of us who are d/Deaf? Do you think we enjoy sharing the difficult experiences just to have a pity-party? I think most of us are sharing because we want to make sure this does not happen to children today. You can't say that it doesn't happen, or that all the old methods and attitudes have been eliminated. There is still a lot to gain from the experiences of the past, we learn what to carry on with and what to be wary of.
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I've been wondering the same thing. :hmm:
 
I'm glad faire joure is on here. While most of us might be baffled at some of her views and comments, it's clear she has passion for doing what's best for her child. Her child is in a deaf school, exposed to ASL. She also chose to implant her child with a CI, but she did her share of extensive research. Some of the things she has said has made me cringe, yes. But some things she has said makes perfect sense, too.

There's nothing wrong with a deaf child learning speech, as long as it doesn't hinder the language process. The best way to teach spoken language, ironically, is to use manual communication to support the child in the learning process.

If you want your deaf child to have the best possible chance at good speech, then expose them to manual communication such as ASL. Ironic, isn't it?
 
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