Respect for all

The difference is that although I choose the oral method for my children. My children now know that if they want to try something else they are more then welcome.
Yes, but the point is that they did not have the choice initially. It's good that you're not hardcore oral only, "sign is a "crutch"..........BUT, you still are kind of audist. It's good that you're somewhat openminded.............but why couldn't you have raised your kids with BOTH speech AND sign? Like attendance part time at an oral program, and then attendance part time at an ASL program?
Or even...........focusing on speech in the classroom, but also allowing ASL at home.
And the fact of the matter is that they don't have the choice, b/c you stated that your son is not fluent in ASL. *meep.meep.meep* He doesn't have the either or choice, b/c he's not fluent in ASL. Had you rasied him with BOTH ASL and speech, he would have had that choice. It is VERY possible to raise a kid with both ASL and speech.
 
I was raised oral. I have moderate to profound hearing loss and my parents raised me to speak and I went to speech therapy. I learned ASL in 1989 went to a Deaf school in my high school years.

Do I regret her teaching me to be oral....NO

Do I regret my Mom not learning signs....NO

Am I upset with my Mom in any way she raised me...NO

My Mother did what she though was best for me and she did a Damn good job.
She gave me the option to learn ASL and to attend to a Deaf school and to learn sign language.. I was not ready for it. I have now learn to embrace both worlds as my own...

The oral skills have helped me to find jobs and communicate with people that are oral and doesn't know sign language. I can not expect everyone to learn ASL just for me, myself and I. It would be extremely selfish of me to expect that from my job site or from the grocery store clerk.

I am a strong believer of TC. ASL and Oral combined.

Jackie I applaud you for raising your child/children You are their mother and no one else can tell you how to raise your child. Due to it is YOUR child no one else. I'm sure they will grow up to be fine adults.

If you don't mind me asking how old is your deaf child??

Does your mom know my mom? I agree with the respect in how your mom raised you. Mine did the same. It was her best choice.

Jackie, I agree with others, as long as you know how you are raising your children, that is all that matters.
 
Yes, but the point is that they did not have the choice initially. It's good that you're not hardcore oral only, "sign is a "crutch"..........BUT, you still are kind of audist. It's good that you're somewhat openminded.............but why couldn't you have raised your kids with BOTH speech AND sign? Like attendance part time at an oral program, and then attendance part time at an ASL program?
Or even...........focusing on speech in the classroom, but also allowing ASL at home.
And the fact of the matter is that they don't have the choice, b/c you stated that your son is not fluent in ASL. *meep.meep.meep* He doesn't have the either or choice, b/c he's not fluent in ASL. Had you rasied him with BOTH ASL and speech, he would have had that choice. It is VERY possible to raise a kid with both ASL and speech.


It is done! Her kids are almost adults and she is giving them a choice...

The "whys" "could of" and "should of" done it early on in life. It is the past ..... need to LET GO!


*meep, meep, meep* What part do you don't understand...it will not change her mind nor it will change how you feel.

She did her best. All parents are not perfect and all "loving parents" do what is best for their child. I can not criticize any loving parent on how to raise their child. I would not want ANYONE to tell me how to raise mind.
 
Alright, I think now is the time to add my two cents.

As I'm reading on and on, I'm getting more angered by Jackie's comments. It has nothing to do with the battle between oral-bibi-ASL education. The only thing I'm against is LACK of education for many deaf people, and hearing parents. It's sad.

Jackie says, "I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY IMPLANT USERS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO BOTH ORAL LANGUAGE AND SIGN LANGUAGE AT AN EARLY AGE AND BE ABLE TO DO BOTH."
Go to Lake Drive School for the Deaf in Mountain Lakes NJ, and you'll see a LOT of students with CI *and* spoken language *and* sign language. I know, I grew up there. I learned how to speak *and* read/write English. I have COLLEGE LEVEL READING. Not all students from that school is at that level. Some students don't do as well as other, others do amazing. It all has to do with education beyond the school. Same for hearing students. Some students suck, others excel. In fact, one person I know has AMAZING writing skills and reading skills. Hell, she reads 2 books A WEEK! And guess what, she CANNOT speak at all. I'm implanted. I speak English fluently. I sign fluently. My mother signs because she wanted to. All of this occurred when I was 2 years old. My first sign was "cracker". My second sign I learned was "Fart" (Don't ask. :lol:) There. You met one deaf person who was implanted, exposed at oral and sign language at a young age.

Jillio says something about drilling in someone's head, Jackie responded by saying: "I AM YELLING NOW IN CASE YOU WANTED TO KNOW. YOU SAY ONE THING AND THEN GO BACK AND SAY ANOTHER. SO YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST COCHLEAR IMPLANTS. BUT LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID THAT DRILLING A HOLE IN A DEAF PERSON HEAD IS WRONG."

First of all, jillio DID NOT say ANYTHING about CI! He's merely saying that long time ago, doctors would use a drill, and cut a hole in someone's head to cure them of mental illness. Where did jillio say anything about CI?! Obviously, you need to read more carefully. No comment about that. :roll:

Jackie said this in above post: "My daughter would prefer that I not know any sign language because it is like a secret language for her and some of her friends."
WTF? Now it's making it sound like your daughter is the one that's telling you what to do or what not to do. "secret language" - Hmm..it makes me think that while your daughter embraces her oral education, yet really wants to talk in sign language. That comment just seem so "wrong" to me.


To me it seem to be a little bit of a taunting war between jillio and Jackie. I'm more on Jillio's side simply because he/she does not go around insulting people or telling people that it's "his way or the highway".

Jackie - While you're the mom, and you made the choice to raise your children that way. Good for you. I never said that I'm against the way you're raising your children. I am against the fact that you put down people who are against it. They have their reasons, good or bad. You favor oral education. If some parents come to this forum and wants to know about oral education. You give them the resources they need, but DO NOT ever say, "ORAL EDUCATION IS THE BOMB! YOU BETTER DO IT! DEAF PEOPLE ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL BEING ORALISTS!". You'll scare them off. Instead, just tell them that what oral education is. History of oralism, success stories, failure stories (can't always be successful in oral education can there?).

I personally see there has been a lot of changes in education for the deaf, because there's a lot more options out there. Towns are allowing mainstreaming with interpreters in classrooms. Schools are realizing that the English language skills really needed to be focused on in these schools (sadly, a little too late for most). ADA laws has been in effect for a while, and it *will* take a LONG while before EVERYONE is EDUCATED about the law. 20 years from now, there will be deaf people still going to oral schools. There will be deaf people still be going to a bi-bi/TC environment schools. There will probably be a big improvement in English skills among deaf students. Deaf Culture will always be there regardless what some people think. BUT - I believe that there will be hearing people all over having SOME type of grasp about deaf people. Why? E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N.

Ahh. what a relief. I'm ready for the bashings. :)
 
I was re-reading my post, and I realized that I made a small error that may have caused some confusion.

I said, "lack of education for deaf people". What I meant was that there's many people that I know, mostly from the older generation, that did not get a great education growing up, that a few don't really understand what ADA law is and their rights. They were hit in the hands for using their language, many older groups I know has poor English skills due to lack of education. I always felt that they were deprived of education simply because they were deaf.

I hope I explained it a little bit better.
 
I second that. :) :cool:

I third that! I think it's better to expose a child all choices of language. Spoken, written, and sign language. If the child struggles with speaking, fine..let them stop, no need to force speech therapy into them. This way when the child goes to college, he/she can make the choices they want. If they want to be an oralist. Fine, they got the skills. They want to do everything in sign language, and not speak ever again? Fine, they got the skills. Best of both worlds. IMO.
 
Alright, I think now is the time to add my two cents.

As I'm reading on and on, I'm getting more angered by Jackie's comments. It has nothing to do with the battle between oral-bibi-ASL education. The only thing I'm against is LACK of education for many deaf people, and hearing parents. It's sad.

Jackie says, "I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY IMPLANT USERS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO BOTH ORAL LANGUAGE AND SIGN LANGUAGE AT AN EARLY AGE AND BE ABLE TO DO BOTH."
Go to Lake Drive School for the Deaf in Mountain Lakes NJ, and you'll see a LOT of students with CI *and* spoken language *and* sign language. I know, I grew up there. I learned how to speak *and* read/write English. I have COLLEGE LEVEL READING. Not all students from that school is at that level. Some students don't do as well as other, others do amazing. It all has to do with education beyond the school. Same for hearing students. Some students suck, others excel. In fact, one person I know has AMAZING writing skills and reading skills. Hell, she reads 2 books A WEEK! And guess what, she CANNOT speak at all. I'm implanted. I speak English fluently. I sign fluently. My mother signs because she wanted to. All of this occurred when I was 2 years old. My first sign was "cracker". My second sign I learned was "Fart" (Don't ask. :lol:) There. You met one deaf person who was implanted, exposed at oral and sign language at a young age.

Jillio says something about drilling in someone's head, Jackie responded by saying: "I AM YELLING NOW IN CASE YOU WANTED TO KNOW. YOU SAY ONE THING AND THEN GO BACK AND SAY ANOTHER. SO YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST COCHLEAR IMPLANTS. BUT LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID THAT DRILLING A HOLE IN A DEAF PERSON HEAD IS WRONG."

First of all, jillio DID NOT say ANYTHING about CI! He's merely saying that long time ago, doctors would use a drill, and cut a hole in someone's head to cure them of mental illness. Where did jillio say anything about CI?! Obviously, you need to read more carefully. No comment about that. :roll:

Jackie said this in above post: "My daughter would prefer that I not know any sign language because it is like a secret language for her and some of her friends."
WTF? Now it's making it sound like your daughter is the one that's telling you what to do or what not to do. "secret language" - Hmm..it makes me think that while your daughter embraces her oral education, yet really wants to talk in sign language. That comment just seem so "wrong" to me.


To me it seem to be a little bit of a taunting war between jillio and Jackie. I'm more on Jillio's side simply because he/she does not go around insulting people or telling people that it's "his way or the highway".

Jackie - While you're the mom, and you made the choice to raise your children that way. Good for you. I never said that I'm against the way you're raising your children. I am against the fact that you put down people who are against it. They have their reasons, good or bad. You favor oral education. If some parents come to this forum and wants to know about oral education. You give them the resources they need, but DO NOT ever say, "ORAL EDUCATION IS THE BOMB! YOU BETTER DO IT! DEAF PEOPLE ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL BEING ORALISTS!". You'll scare them off. Instead, just tell them that what oral education is. History of oralism, success stories, failure stories (can't always be successful in oral education can there?).

I personally see there has been a lot of changes in education for the deaf, because there's a lot more options out there. Towns are allowing mainstreaming with interpreters in classrooms. Schools are realizing that the English language skills really needed to be focused on in these schools (sadly, a little too late for most). ADA laws has been in effect for a while, and it *will* take a LONG while before EVERYONE is EDUCATED about the law. 20 years from now, there will be deaf people still going to oral schools. There will be deaf people still be going to a bi-bi/TC environment schools. There will probably be a big improvement in English skills among deaf students. Deaf Culture will always be there regardless what some people think. BUT - I believe that there will be hearing people all over having SOME type of grasp about deaf people. Why? E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N.

Ahh. what a relief. I'm ready for the bashings. :)

:ty:Lady. No bashing here. Good posting.
 
I third that! I think it's better to expose a child all choices of language. Spoken, written, and sign language. If the child struggles with speaking, fine..let them stop, no need to force speech therapy into them. This way when the child goes to college, he/she can make the choices they want. If they want to be an oralist. Fine, they got the skills. They want to do everything in sign language, and not speak ever again? Fine, they got the skills. Best of both worlds. IMO.

Exactly. Provide them with all of the tools, and they will have what they need to choose what is most useful to them. Let the deaf individual determine how they want to live with their deafness and what is most comfortable and beneficial for them. There is an old saying in the advocacy world. "Nothing for us without us." Paraphrased...."Stop making decisions for us based on what you think we need, and let us tell you what we need."
 
It is done! Her kids are almost adults and she is giving them a choice...

The "whys" "could of" and "should of" done it early on in life. It is the past ..... need to LET GO!


*meep, meep, meep* What part do you don't understand...it will not change her mind nor it will change how you feel.

She did her best. All parents are not perfect and all "loving parents" do what is best for their child. I can not criticize any loving parent on how to raise their child. I would not want ANYONE to tell me how to raise mind.

You are not familiar with the history of this situation here. Noone was really attacking her as a parent; what concerns some of us is the disagreement we have over an educational philosophy and she is a teacher.
 
You are not familiar with the history of this situation here. Noone was really attacking her as a parent; what concerns some of us is the disagreement we have over an educational philosophy and she is a teacher.[/QU

YES..I agree with you.. but I see no reason for Jackie yelling at us over that issue...She was very angry...
 
It is done! Her kids are almost adults and she is giving them a choice...

The "whys" "could of" and "should of" done it early on in life. It is the past ..... need to LET GO!


*meep, meep, meep* What part do you don't understand...it will not change her mind nor it will change how you feel.

She did her best. All parents are not perfect and all "loving parents" do what is best for their child. I can not criticize any loving parent on how to raise their child. I would not want ANYONE to tell me how to raise mind.

I understand that what's done is done, But, I disagree with your viewpoint on this matter "parents do what's best for their child", What's best? Do we all make best decisions for our children? Maybe, maybe not, maybe no, maybe yes and maybe never.

The point is, It's about the deaf children's communication barriers beyond their control, there are struggle in between communication that was given to them from the get and go by some hearing parents. Deaf people see themselves much like any other minority, feel like outsiders, because of that no hearing knows what's best of them, only those who know what's it's like is when someone experienced it themselves.

Can you imagine the most frustration it is to sit at a table with about four hearing people trying to understand a conversation, it's almost impossible to get the whole conversation, What I am saying here, we want to be treated equal, first class people, not second class. If we learned to speak, why can't hearing parents learn to sign? It's not one way highway. It's unfair for deaf people to tried to pay attention or understand what was going on around us. Now can you see how it affects deaf children where communication tool is given to them beyond their control and beyond their power. :(
 
You are not familiar with the history of this situation here. Noone was really attacking her as a parent; what concerns some of us is the disagreement we have over an educational philosophy and she is a teacher.


I understand that.. I am familiar that she is a teacher but re read the posts and they are also referring to her children....


those are the post I'm replying to:ugh3:

But thanks anyways
 
I understand that what's done is done, But, I disagree with your viewpoint on this matter "parents do what's best for their child", What's best? Do we all make best decisions for our children? Maybe, maybe not, maybe no, maybe yes and maybe never.

The point is, It's about the deaf children's communication barriers beyond their control, there are struggle in between communication that was given to them from the get and go by some hearing parents. Deaf people see themselves much like any other minority, feel like outsiders, because of that no hearing knows what's best of them, only those who know what's it's like is when someone experienced it themselves.

Can you imagine the most frustration it is to sit at a table with about four hearing people trying to understand a conversation, it's almost impossible to get the whole conversation, What I am saying here, we want to be treated equal, first class people, not second class. If we learned to speak, why can't hearing parents learn to sign? It's not one way highway. It's unfair for deaf people to tried to pay attention or understand what was going on around us. Now can you see how it affects deaf children where communication tool is given to them beyond their control and beyond their power. :(

Cheri, I have been in the same position except my outcome was different. You know my story, but my mom handled it the best she could. I look back at childhood without one harsh word against my family. I'm sorry yours was not like that.

I do agree with giving children a combination of communications. I'm not sure which is best, after reading post after post, I still have not made up my mind. I feel that no matter what is chosen that the whole family learns. I don't just believe the child needs to learn, but the whole family actively involve.

As a deaf individual raising a hearing child, do you know how much advise I have been given. Most from strangers and most hurt! I remember feeling so terrible over really harsh words about the tone of my voice and how I was damaging my child because she could not speak correctly. The kicker was I needed to make sure my child had quality time with a hearing adult so she does not sound like me. I can go on and on. If I felt this way I can only imagine what a hearing parent of a deaf child goes through.
 
Let me tell you about the story when the audiologist told us that our children were deaf. You know what they said that my children would never read above a 3rd grade level and would never talk. What hit the most was that they would never read above a 3rd grade level. That was not acceptable and that is why I began researching. I am very happy to report that both of my children read above a 10th grade level.
I did say that it should a deaf child's choice to learn ASL but don't most you also say that it is child's choice if they want an implant. Yes, I am much more of an oralist. But just because I am an oralist, it does not mean that I believe oral is best or that all deaf children should be oral.

The audiologist is stupid to say things like that. It is those experts that are spreading false information about deafness and sign language. Those are the same ones that used these scare tactics on my mom. That was unfair for all of us and we all suffered but did they suffer? Of course not.
 
That's great that your two kids are signers, I for one do not believe in the use of ASL ONLY (but for babies) without the use of speech skills, I believe both should be included. ;) I disagree with AGBell--their ideology of not allowing sign language for deaf babies, Signs with babies helps find out exactly what is going on in a baby’s mind - what does the baby need? What does the baby want? What does the baby observe before they develop those required for speech.


And I also believe that deaf children should be much involve in both worlds.

I am with u all the way on that one.
 
The audiologist is stupid to say things like that. It is those experts that are spreading false information about deafness and sign language. Those are the same ones that used these scare tactics on my mom. That was unfair for all of us and we all suffered but did they suffer? Of course not.

Exactly. Unless that audi has a crystal ball, they have no power to predict the future.
 
YW. Respect is supposed to be a 2 way street. If one doesn't want to be judged, then one doesn't need to be judging others.

Thank u...I welcome any parent of deaf children with open arms whether their children got implanted or not. The part about the decision to implant is the one that is not the issue but when the parents say things like "I dont want my child to learn sign language" "My child doesnt need sign language" or worst of all "I dont want my child interacting with those deaf children who use sign language." That will turn me off and not respect them.

I never intentionally push any parents who implant their children from the Deaf community. It is usually the other way around first and if they or other oral deaf users say things like how they have more opportunities cuz they have oral skills, that is a big turn off for me.

I used to say things like that as a kid and for that, I am ashamed of myself.


Why should I respect those who have discriminated against those who rely on sign language?
 
Since you are a TOD, and you have daily contact with deaf children other than your own, what about learning it for your students' benefit? You have already stated that you recommend to parents that they try the oral route first, and if it doesn't work out, then add signing. All of the current research indicates that this creates a liguistically deprived situation for deaf children. Perhaps your own children overcame it, or so you tell us, but what about the children you are teaching? You don't seem to understand that by ignoring the evidence, you are putting other people's children at risk.


That philosophy is the one I strongly strongly disagree with. I dont like this approach of trying oral first and if it fails, then learn sign later. That is a big NO NO in my book. Hearing kids are not being put in that position but yet it is ok to put deaf chidlren in that position.
 
I was raised oral. I have moderate to profound hearing loss and my parents raised me to speak and I went to speech therapy. I learned ASL in 1989 went to a Deaf school in my high school years.

Do I regret her teaching me to be oral....NO

Do I regret my Mom not learning signs....NO

Am I upset with my Mom in any way she raised me...NO

My Mother did what she though was best for me and she did a Damn good job.
She gave me the option to learn ASL and to attend to a Deaf school and to learn sign language.. I was not ready for it. I have now learn to embrace both worlds as my own...

The oral skills have helped me to find jobs and communicate with people that are oral and doesn't know sign language. I can not expect everyone to learn ASL just for me, myself and I. It would be extremely selfish of me to expect that from my job site or from the grocery store clerk.

I am a strong believer of TC. ASL and Oral combined.

Jackie I applaud you for raising your child/children You are their mother and no one else can tell you how to raise your child. Due to it is YOUR child no one else. I'm sure they will grow up to be fine adults.

If you don't mind me asking how old is your deaf child??

U were so lucky to have both.

I didnt have that...I was in a restrictive environment 24/7. It took a toll on me.

If I had ASL growing up, maybe I wouldnt be so miserable growing up trying to understand what is being said around me constantly.
 
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