Not Deaf enough??

[Tousi]

"monoglot"???

 

[hoichi]

They may not have but it seems to be somewhat of a minority? - maybe there are more but I doubt age has anything to do with it either. I'm sure there are young folks in their 20s who may have the same views. I just don't see it as often now as I did in the late 80s.

In the 80s I knew an older Deaf person who grew up attending deaf school (as far as I know I don't know her whole history) and I don't think they used her voice much if at all.... they married another one of my friends who is hard of hearing and grew up oral- that person didn't learn ASL until in their 30s- in fact when they were dating the HOH partner was still more heavily... 'hearing world focused' and their ASL wasn't fluid or close- but that didn't seem to bother the Deaf person at all.

We are not a minority. Just many many have been bullied and berreted into silence.
Mark my signs
Plenty plenty of hoichi are amongst you.
But i ask
What exactly is it of my view that to be accepted by us Deaf one must sign, do you find . So reprehensible?
If not sign what do you suggest we use english?
It seems fair we use OUR language as a measure for acceptance to OUR culture
just as other cultures do..
By your own admission you dont use sign as much as you once.did, in the 80s you where at gally right? Obviously you had more exposure then,but i wouldnt count on people holding my views to just disapear. Right now most of us are silenced. But thats due to bullied and harassment by those who come into our house and culture, wag a finger, refuse to sign and cry victim when we find thier rudeness to be intolerible and dont accept them. Crickets is s good example of that mindset clear as crystal in this thread. Sadly shes not slone
Oh how does.that old chime go
"A spector is haunting.the oralistt, the spector of sign"
Sign is our measure.
Not the adiogram.
Feel free to suggest an alternative, im open to discussion

 

[Bottesini]

"monoglot"???

dystopia!!

 

[Swedeafa]

We are not a minority. Just many many have been bullied and berreted into silence.
Mark my signs
Plenty plenty of hoichi are amongst you.
But i ask
What exactly is it of my view that to be accepted by us Deaf one must sign, do you find . So reprehensible?
If not sign what do you suggest we use english?
It seems fair we use OUR language as a measure foe acceptance
just as other cultures do..

One issue is that, if I recall correctly, that DeafDucky does sign, and still you would not say he is Deaf enough. If he does sign, you should welcome him. It is contradictory if signing is a criteria, and then you do not accept someone who does sign. Secondly, it is possible to sign and to use hearing technology. In some posts you seemed to imply that if one likes hearing technology, then one cannot be Deaf. I disagree. It is possible to sign anytime you are around Deaf, and to use terps, but still speak and use hearing technology while around hearing people that do not know sign. Being a signer and being Deaf should not exclude using other ways of communicating if one prefers in some situations.

Once again, if someone is late deafened, then they will be poor signers for several years. If you want them to become a part of Deaf society, then you need to be kind, welcoming, and help them improve their language skills. If you are not kind and helpful, then they will have no reason to want to learn how to sign. More important, they will have no way to become proficient at signing. A few courses is not enough to learn to sign. It is a completely new language, and many HOH get discouraged because it is hard to learn and because some Deaf are making fun of them instead of helping them learn. Of course no one has the time to go around and talk to new signers all the time, and you might of course not want to become friends with anyone that shows up, but if you are just dismissing them altogether, then they will certainly not learn how to sign well.

 

[hoichi]

[

One issue is that, if I recall correctly, that DeafDucky does sign, and still you would not say he is Deaf enough. If he does sign, you should welcome him. It is contradictory if signing is a criteria, and then you do not accept someone who does sign. Secondly, it is possible to sign and to use hearing technology. In some posts you seemed to imply that if one likes hearing technology, then one cannot be Deaf. I disagree. It is possible to sign anytime you are around Deaf, and to use terps, but still speak and use hearing technology while around hearing people that do not know sign. Being a signer and being Deaf should not exclude using other ways of communicating if one prefers in some situations.ll.

This seems to be a misunderstanding i tried to clear up.in my other posts. sign is our measure. If you Sign we will accept you. When i wrote primary i was writing and am writing through deaf eyEs. And i mEan it. Which means with us. If you want us to accept you you need to sign with us. What you do with hearie, if you choose to move your beak and bable like a parrot with them is your bussiness.but with us. You need to siGn. Some think you can just sign a little with us and use english the rest of the tme that wont get you accepted. That gets you so fsr, sure, but not accepted as Deaf. The exclusion you speak of we find actually to be the other way around We find it very rude for people to just show up and start using english and expect for us to accept it rather then sign with us. We find that to be excluding and most other cultures woukd too. if i went to sweeden and refused for what everr my reasons to learn sweedish and demanded sweedes uee english with me only. Or wht ever language besides. Regardless if im surounded by swedes. How would i be accepted? Maybe there would be no plm. Cool. But we see a plm with that way of thinkng. So we dont accept it. We find it rude. And it happen allot. your welcome to ignore my words and try what you want. All cool. As for using technology. I dont care what aduLts use. I recomend the supperior technology. But adukts are free to do what they want with their bodiees. If they want to drill another hole in their arse, cool. If they want to drill holes in their heads or worse to be able to still hear what ever. To me the issue is sign. And sign also is the issue to many who do the drilling and push those products so really if our Sign wasnt in their constant cross hairs i wouldnt be too bothered on what adults do. But they target our kids. And thats where we as a culture see a plm.

OnOnce again, if someone is late deafened, then they will be poor signers for several years. If you want them to become a part of Deaf society, then you need to be kind, welcoming, and help them improve their language skills. If you are not kind and helpful, then they will have no reason to want to learn how to sign. More important, they will have no way to become proficient at signing. A few courses is not enough to learn to sign. It is a completely new language, and many HOH get discouraged because it is hard to learn and because some Deaf are making fun of them instead of helping them learn. Of course no one has the time to go around and talk to new signers all the time, and you might of course not want to become friends with anyone that shows up, but if you are just dismissing them altogether, then they will certainly not learn how to sign well.

c
Im not dismissing anyone.
Again
If you want us to accept you, then you need to SIGN.
We have allot of patience with sencere people. spare the crocodile tears here, it doesnt cut it. In my experience those who sencerely want to learn our sign we help, period. the "poor me, the Deafie made fun of my new sign boohoo" well just imagaine what Deafies went through being forced to speak a language they coulsnt percieve to get an idea how that boohoo feels.
Really.
Spare me!!
We dont have much patience with audists. of any stripes..

 

[Swedeafa]

[


This seems to be a misunderstanding i tried to clear up.in my other posts. sign is pur measure. If you Sign we will accept you. When i wrote primary i was writing and am writing through deaf eyEs. And i mEan it. Whifh means with us. If you want us to accept you you need to sign with us. What you do with hearie, if you choose to move your beak and bable like a parrot with them is your bussiness.but with us. You need to siGn. Some think you csn just sign a little with us and use english the rest of the tme that wont get you accepted. The exckusion is we find actually to be the other way arounD. We find it very rude for pekplw to just show up and start using engkish and expect for us to accept it rsther then sign with us. We find that to be ezfkuding and most other fuktures woukd too. if i went to sweeden and redused foe what wver my reasons to learn sweedish and demanded sweedes uee english with me only. Regardless if im surounded by swedes. How woukd i be acceoted? Maybe there would be no plm. Cool. But we see a plmwith that way od thinkkng. So we dont accept it. We find it rude. And it happen allot. your welcome to ignore my words and try what you want. All cool. As foe using technology. I sont csre what aduLts use. If they want to drill holws in theie heads or worse to be able to still hesr what wver. To me the issue is sign. And sign alos is the issue to many who do the drilling and push those products so really if our Sign wasnt in their constant cross hairs i woukdnt be too bothered on what adults do. But they tsrget our kids. And thats where we as a cuklure see a plm.

c
Im not dismissing anyone.
Again
If you want us to accept you, then you need to SIGN.
We have allot of patience with sencere people. spare the crocodile tears here, it doesnt cut it. In my experience those who sencerely want to lwsen our sign we help, period. the "poor me, the Deafie made fun of my new signa boohoo" well just imagaine what Deafies went through being forced to soeak a lqnguage they foukdnt percieve to get an idea how that boohoo feels.
Really.
Spare me!!
We dont have much patience with audists

Thanks Hoichi, I understand that you meet all sorts of people and that not everyone is respectful when trying to communicate or actually wishes to learn to sign well.

 

[hoichi]

Thanks Hoichi, I understand that you meet all sorts of people and that not everyone is respectful when trying to communicate or actually wishes to learn to sign well.

Your welcome girl...all cool.
May i add
The vikings were badass....ive always wanted to head to sweeden....
one day...
Mmmm

 

[Jezie]

One issue is that, if I recall correctly, that DeafDucky does sign, and still you would not say he is Deaf enough. If he does sign, you should welcome him. It is contradictory if signing is a criteria, and then you do not accept someone who does sign. Secondly, it is possible to sign and to use hearing technology. In some posts you seemed to imply that if one likes hearing technology, then one cannot be Deaf. I disagree. It is possible to sign anytime you are around Deaf, and to use terps, but still speak and use hearing technology while around hearing people that do not know sign. Being a signer and being Deaf should not exclude using other ways of communicating if one prefers in some situations.

Once again, if someone is late deafened, then they will be poor signers for several years. If you want them to become a part of Deaf society, then you need to be kind, welcoming, and help them improve their language skills. If you are not kind and helpful, then they will have no reason to want to learn how to sign. More important, they will have no way to become proficient at signing. A few courses is not enough to learn to sign. It is a completely new language, and many HOH get discouraged because it is hard to learn and because some Deaf are making fun of them instead of helping them learn. Of course no one has the time to go around and talk to new signers all the time, and you might of course not want to become friends with anyone that shows up, but if you are just dismissing them altogether, then they will certainly not learn how to sign well.

I am late deafened....
Is my signing poor? You betcha, but it gets stronger as I encounter different people, most deaf others people who happen to know sign. Everyone has been helpful that I have met...this does help. However, on this, hoichi is on the point. I have watched various groups, regardless if they are deaf, hoh, or whatever....speaking is looked down on.... No one says anything, the the entire group dynamic around d the person who spoke changes things quicker than a fart in church....
Maybe it is because I have always sought to learn and improve my sign, but the only people who have ever given me issues were people, deaf and otherwise, who were oral ....

 

[rockin'robin]

Late deafened too...many years ago. I'm not fluent in ASL....but am able to hold convos with other deafies....was invited to a dinner by another deafie at a Buffet...30 or more people came...and was talking with 2 people I knew in ASL and also voice...as I'm oral also....3 ladies walked up and said..."you're hearing?"...I said, "No, I'm late-deafened"...and believe it or not, I was "shunned"....Not a good experience there...

 

[flameburns623]

This is your opiion as an outsider as soneone who doesnt sign.your not culturally Deaf. I respect your opinion. But as it stands my culture doesnt hold your opinion.
The most important thing to do if you want to be accepted as one of us,is to SIGN.
It is our language. if your not going to learn our language then obviously expect us not to accept you as one of us.
Its not an adiological approach. Its not grounded in the medical discourse as deafness being a loss of hearing a measurment of a negative.
Thats not how Deaf cuture views it.
So the quicker you get off that idea the better.
Its simple really.
You want to be accepted as Deaf by us then
SIGN.
Learn our language, its how we view and experience this world. If you dont. Cool. But your not Deaf.
Your just deaf.
someone who lacks hearing.
Big difference as we see it.

I, like others, wonder at the "We" you presume to speak for.

Based, admittedly, upon limited experience, I don't think most Deaf folks see themselves part of an exclusive club to which I and othe HoH people can only be admitted if we learn ASL and abandon all use of our oral language skills.

Most of the Deaf I have met, thus far, have been welcoming and warm towards the fact that I am only just learning ASL. That I am primarily reliant upon speaking to communicate. They don't appear to want to reject me over that fact. Most everyone I have met so far seem to themselves be partly integrated into Hearing communities and don't begrudge the fact that other Deaf and/or HoH people have also accommodated Hearies and the Hearing/Oral world in various ways and to varying degrees. Indeed, some Deaf appear to me proud of the fact that they read lips with great skill and can get along seamlessly among the Hearing.

Of course, the experience I earlier recounted of one of the members of a local Deaf social group might imply a cliquishness that I just haven't yet had time to encounter. Or, perhaps it is you who are extrapolating your own particular lifestyle into something much broader than it is?

I don't expect that culturally Deaf people have been just sitting around, waiting for me, with my nearly-lifelong condition of hearing loss, to discover that I am 'one of them'. I don't imagine myself God's latest "gift to the Deaf". And while I hope to be enriched and to someday broaden my own world by a mastery of ASL-neither am I going to endure a great loss nor begrieve the fact that some Deaf won't accept me because at this late stage of my life I lack a certain patrimony, a certain breadth of experience that lifelong ASL speakers share.

That is the some sort of thing which is often experienced by late converts to Mormonism or to Eastern Orthodoxy. One of my daughter's aunts (via a previous marriage), has entered into a lesbian relationship in late midlife (after several straight marriages and relationships, and with six kids by those prior hetero involvements) and has become participant in the GLBT community: I would wonder, in the context of this conversation, if other, "lifelong" members of that lifestyle might on some occasions be standoffish? Perhaps some of the folks here might speak to the analogues here?

In short: I don't know how broad or universal your description of what it means to you to be "Deaf enough" really is.

 

[Bottesini]

Perhaps some of the folks here might speak to the analogues here?

In short: I don't know how broad or universal your description of what it means to you to be "Deaf enough" really is.

The bolded, what do you mean by that word?

 

[Bottesini]

Originally Posted by flameburns623

In short: I don't know how broad or universal your description of what it means to you to be "Deaf enough" really is.

And on this sentence, it really varies person to person.

I had a hearing guy who married Deaf tell me how unacceptable my use of a hearing aid was, and he didn't really accept me.

Then he got a divorce, and found out fast how unaccepted he was.

I got a chuckle out of that one.

But why spend time worrying if everyone accepts you?

Plenty of people will be happy to be your friend, just stick with them, and forget the separatists.

 

[flameburns623]

The bolded, what do you mean by that word?

"Analogy"--"similarity" or "approximate parallel".

In this case, between 'lifelong Deaf' who accept late-Deafened/HoH/Oralist Deaf as "Deaf enough", and GLBT persons who reccognized themselves early in life and their acceptance of GLBT persons who come to that community after a lifetime of living as a 'straight'. I suspect parallels but don't don't know that of a certainty. There are folks here who are both GLBT and Deaf who might be able to draw out the similarities.

 

[hoichi]

[

I, like others, wonder at the "We" you presume to speak for.
s.

If you read my post. Then you would of seen my awnswer ro that question."we" in my posts are cultural Deaf. And im not presuming anything. I am Deaf. I am Culturally Deaf. I use ASL as my primary language, if you want my creds here they are i went to a Deaf resedential government school, i went to gally. I have lived amongst my people and have been Deaf for 30 years. The above gives me whats called experience, i actually do know what im talking about here. feel free to disregard everything ive written about my culture and how WE handle people who show up in our house in our culture and refuse to learn and use our language. And instead expect us to move our beaks like parrots as hearie..we will shun you. We will politely ignore you, some will be rude, others will just not bother with you All cool.

I, lBased, admittedly, upon limited experience, I don't think most Deaf folks see themselves part of an exclusive club to which I and othe HoH people can only be admitted if we learn ASL and abandon all use of our oral language skills.s.

No place did i argue one has to abandon all use of ones oral langauge skills. Its not an excusive club thing. Its simply one of language and culture. Would you go to japan and refuse to even try to use japanse and demand them use english to suit you? In their own house? Their own country? Or italy? Or any other place where its people use a differenr language? maybe you would. cool. But we Deaf are rather sick of that hubris. So take that someplace else really. IF you want to be acceped as Deaf by us Deaf, sign. if not we wont accept you as one of us, nor should we. And no hearie or wannabe hearie bitching will change that.

I, lMost of the Deaf I have met, thus far, have been welcoming and warm towards the fact that I am only just learning ASL. That I am primarily reliant upon speaking to communicate. They don't appear to want to reject me over that fact. Most everyone I have met so far seem to themselves be partly integrated into Hearing communities and don't begrudge the fact that other Deaf and/or HoH people have also accommodated Hearies and the Hearing/Oral world in various ways and to varying degrees. Indeed, some Deaf appear to me proud of the fact that they read lips with great skill and can get along seamlessly among the Hearing. s.

I dont think you read my posts clearly. But ive written we are open and accepting to those who are sencere and want To learn and use our language. We know fluency doesnt occure overnight. The rate of fluency or its aquisition is not in question. If you sign, and are trying and we see it. We will accept you as Deaf, if you dont sign we wont. Period. nor should we.

I, lOf course, the experience I earlier recounted of one of the members of a local Deaf social group might imply a cliquishness that I just haven't yet had time to encounter. Or, perhaps it is you who are extrapolating your own particular lifestyle into something much broader than it is?s.

No man. Its my culture, my Experience. others will tell you the same. If you showed up at any of our events or what ever and just moved your beak like a parrot hearie and refused to sign and bitched we should accomodate english babbledabble.... We would shun you. Trust me. FeeL free to try it the next deaf event....dont take my signs for it. Have fun.

I, lI don't expect that culturally Deaf people have been just sitting around, waiting for me, with my nearly-lifelong condition of hearing loss, to discover that I am 'one of them'. I don't imagine myself God's latest "gift to the Deaf". And while I hope to be enriched and to someday broaden my own world by a mastery of ASL-neither am I going to endure a great loss nor begrieve the fact that some Deaf won't accept me because at this late stage of my life I lack a certain patrimony, a certain breadth of experience that lifelong ASL speakers share. s.

Alright. Cool.

I, lThat is the some sort of thing which is often experienced by late converts to Mormonism or to Eastern Orthodoxy. One of my daughter's aunts (via a previous marriage), has entered into a lesbian relationship in late midlife (after several straight marriages and relationships, and with six kids by those prior hetero involvements) and has become participant in the GLBT community: I would wonder, in the context of this conversation, if other, "lifelong" members of that lifestyle might on some occasions be standoffish? Perhaps some of the folks here might speak to the analogues here?
s.

Its actually very different then your examples. its one of language And culture. its really simple. If you dont or wont or refuse to learn our language then we wont accept you as one of us, because its by our sign that we define ourselfs as Deaf. We dont define ourselves with an adiogram.

I, lIn short: I don't know how broad or universal your description of what it means to you to be "Deaf enough" really is.

Ive never once used that term nor will i.
But mark my signs.
If you dont learn and use sign, we wont accept you as one of us. And again nor should We.
We Deaf we sign.
If not
Your deaf. Cool.
Hope this helps clear things up. And i think its great your learning sign.
Awsome.

 

[Bottesini]

"Analogy"--"similarity" or "approximate parallel".

In this case, between 'lifelong Deaf' who accept late-Deafened/HoH/Oralist Deaf as "Deaf enough", and GLBT persons who reccognized themselves early in life and their acceptance of GLBT persons who come to that community after a lifetime of living as a 'straight'. I suspect parallels but don't don't know that of a certainty. There are folks here who are both GLBT and Deaf who might be able to draw out the similarities.

Oh. I don't think there really are parallels there, so will leave it to someone else.

A better would be comparing between small towns and cities.

 

[flameburns623]

Hoichi: Mormons and Orthodox have 'cultures' as well. Including group-speak and elements of dialect; and, (in the case of Orthodox), language.

They have art, poetry, and literature unique among themselves (look up "Mollywood" for examples of Mormon filmmaking, for example: They have forms and ritual with deep meanings for themselves but not recognizable or readily understood by outsiders. They have been harassed for being 'different', particularly the Mormons, although not so commonly in the past 40 years or so.

There are nuances of shared experience among these groups and both give a measure of preferment to birthright members which converts rarely partake in.

Bottesini: I think the parallels are there but I don't know the particulars. My hunch is, the analogies would be very very close in many ways: bullying, attempts to 'fix the problem', ostracism, the need to construct subcultures to maintain an identity. Absolute suppression of such Identity, often until late in life. Etcetera.

None of this takes away from the uniqueness of Deaf culture: it just points to the fact that there are many subcultures, some more fully-developed and some less so, and that people discover and partake in several of them to lesser or greater degree, and at different stages of life.

Sorry: my major was in sociology and I tend to look for these sorts of comparison/contrast when I stumble upon them.

 

[hoichi]

[

Hoichi: Mormons and Orthodox have 'cultures' as well. Including group-speak and elements of dialect; and, (in the case of Orthodox), language.

m.

mormon is a religion, orhodox is a religion. sure orhodox of difderenr verieties will have their dielect. Its a bad comparison.
Your better to compare languages with languages. ASL is our language. Its a full living language, with it comes our culture. ASL is a langauge. deaf culture is our culture.

HoicThey have art, poetry, and literature unique among themselves (look up "Mollywood" for examples of Mormon filmmaking, for example: They have forms and ritual with deep meanings for themselves but not recognizable or readily understood by outsiders. They have been harassed for being 'different', particularly the Mormons, although not so commonly in the past 40 years or so.

There are nuances of shared experience among these groups and both give a measure of preferment to birthright members which converts rarely partake in. m.

The above is irrelevant to the discussion. cool mormons and orhodox have peotry..and movies ....awsome.

HoicBottesini: I think the parallels are there but I don't know the particulars. My hunch is, the analogies would be very very close in many ways: bullying, attempts to 'fix the problem', ostracism, the need to construct subcultures to maintain an identity. Absolute suppression of such Identity, often until late in life. Etcetera. m.

We are NOT a subculture. we are a culture. A full living bresthing culture. With our own language. Period. you wont get far telling us otherwise. So sAfe it. Weve been.down this road with hearie before.

HoicNone of this takes away from the uniqueness of Deaf culture: it just points to the fact that there are many subcultures, some more fully-developed and some less so, and that people discover and partake in several of them to lesser or greater degree, and at different stages of life.m.

Again Deaf Culture is a Culture. Not a sub CuLture. And in america and parts of csnada ASL is pir language. Period.


Sorry: my major was in sociology and I tend to look for these sorts of comparison/contrast when I stumble upon them.[/QUOTE]
Cool. understand many of us dont tske kindly to being told our culture is a subculture,because often along with that the nwxt thing is aSL is not a real language. So on. And the above thinking has been used to dominate us, and screw us around by hearies ...To put it kindly
Hey.
Look. Read paddy ladd understanding deaf culture. it will help you, as you studied sociology and its heavy with that stuff....
Hope thay helps.

 

[Crickets]

[


This seems to be a misunderstanding i tried to clear up.in my other posts. sign is our measure. If you Sign we will accept you. When i wrote primary i was writing and am writing through deaf eyEs. And i mEan it. Which means with us. If you want us to accept you you need to sign with us. What you do with hearie, if you choose to move your beak and bable like a parrot with them is your bussiness.but with us. You need to siGn. Some think you can just sign a little with us and use english the rest of the tme that wont get you accepted. That gets you so fsr, sure, but not accepted as Deaf. The exclusion you speak of we find actually to be the other way around We find it very rude for people to just show up and start using english and expect for us to accept it rather then sign with us. We find that to be excluding and most other cultures woukd too. if i went to sweeden and refused for what everr my reasons to learn sweedish and demanded sweedes uee english with me only. Or wht ever language besides. Regardless if im surounded by swedes. How would i be accepted? Maybe there would be no plm. Cool. But we see a plm with that way of thinkng. So we dont accept it. We find it rude. And it happen allot. your welcome to ignore my words and try what you want. All cool. As for using technology. I dont care what aduLts use. I recomend the supperior technology. But adukts are free to do what they want with their bodiees. If they want to drill another hole in their arse, cool. If they want to drill holes in their heads or worse to be able to still hear what ever. To me the issue is sign. And sign also is the issue to many who do the drilling and push those products so really if our Sign wasnt in their constant cross hairs i wouldnt be too bothered on what adults do. But they target our kids. And thats where we as a culture see a plm.

c
Im not dismissing anyone.
Again
If you want us to accept you, then you need to SIGN.
We have allot of patience with sencere people. spare the crocodile tears here, it doesnt cut it. In my experience those who sencerely want to learn our sign we help, period. the "poor me, the Deafie made fun of my new sign boohoo" well just imagaine what Deafies went through being forced to speak a language they coulsnt percieve to get an idea how that boohoo feels.
Really.
Spare me!!
We dont have much patience with audists. of any stripes..

Hoichi, what you or any other Deaf person have gone through or what you were forced to do in the past has nothing to do with me. I've been hoh my whole life and have never felt sorry for myself for it, but I also don't apologize for still being able to hear. Just because I use my voice and ears to communicate rather than using ASL doesn't mean I think I'm better than Deaf people. It doesn't make me audist. I've never forced a Deaf person to talk or made fun of them for not being able to hear, and I never would. Since I began wearing hearing aids (meaning my being hoh was more "visible" to others), I've educated many curious people about hearing loss and hearing aids, and I am always willing to answer questions and let people know that being hoh is not always wonderful (from my perspective), but it's not the end of the world, either. It's just something I have to deal with, like other people have to deal with other things in their lives. It's just part of who I am.

If I was ever to attempt sign language with Deaf people, I would simply expect them to treat me with respect and patience, as I would them. But if I'm told I should expect that I'll be looked down on or thought of as being "rude" if I should speak (which has been my primary form of communication for 50 years) while in the process of trying to use sign language, then I'm not interested in spending time with people (hearing or Deaf) who treat others in such a way. I'm not saying I think all Deaf people would treat people like that, but if that's the general attitude in Deaf culture, then it's definitely not something I am going to seek out.

I've never personally met a Deaf person, but I've met several hoh people (some with hearing aids, some with cochlear implants, and some who've never used either), and despite our different ways of dealing with being hoh, we all accepted our differences and managed to be very supportive and not judge each other for how we handled being hoh. As I've continued to lose more hearing over the last couple of years and have begun learning about Deaf culture, it's been very eye-opening to read about the concept of "not Deaf enough." Who knew it wouldn't be enough to become deaf to be accepted fully by other deaf people who happen to use a different language? We're all texting now on this message board, after all - none of us is using either ASL or speech to communicate, and that seems to be working ok. Why should deaf people let speech vs sign language divide and weaken them as a group? Do Deaf people who use ASL look down on other Deaf people who use a different sign language? They're still different languages, just as ASL and English are. Wouldn't we all be stronger as deaf/hoh people (as a group) if we just supported each other and didn't judge each other, no matter which language we use?

 

[flameburns623]

Hoichi:

Orthodox have many languages: Aramaic, koine Greek, Old Slavonic.

"Subculture" is a scientific term and not a diminutive. The United States--and Canada--are nations of 'subcultures, meaning that ethnicity is not a significant part of what it means to hold citizenship in those lands. We tend to self-identify based upon voluntary or semi-voluntary associations: based upon our religion, our political ideology, our regional distinctives, the urban areas where we reside.

By contrast, it is incredibly difficult to even become a naturalized citizen of Japan, and even ethnic Japanese born and raised outside Japan often find difficulty gaining acceptance there.

Greek Orthodoxy is a 'subculture' in Greece. It is a 'dominant subculture' in Greek because so many Greeks identify as Orthodox. But not ALL Greeks are Orthodox and being Orthodox does not definitively define what it means to be Greek.

I know of no nation-state called Deaflandia, where the requirement to be a citizen includes the status of Deafness. Deaf live and operate among other social groups.

I've read Paddy Ladd. Good stuff!

 

[hoichi]

Hoichi:

Orthodox have many languages: Aramaic, koine Greek, Old Slavonic.

"Subculture" is a scientific term and not a diminutive. The United States--and Canada--are nations of 'subcultures, meaning that ethnicity is not a significant part of what it means to hold citizenship in those lands. We tend to self-identify based upon voluntary or semi-voluntary associations: based upon our religion, our political ideology, our regional distinctives, the urban areas where we reside.

By contrast, it is incredibly difficult to even become a naturalized citizen of Japan, and even ethnic Japanese born and raised outside Japan often find difficulty gaining acceptance there.

Greek Orthodoxy is a 'subculture' in Greece. It is a 'dominant subculture' in Greek because so many Greeks identify as Orthodox. But not ALL Greeks are Orthodox and being Orthodox does not definitively define what it means to be Greek.

I know of no nation-state called Deaflandia, where the requirement to be a citizen includes the status of Deafness. Deaf live and operate among other social groups.

I've read Paddy Ladd. Good stuff!

Alright man im not seeing what all your point is here....anyway indeed Deaf are everywhere, we dont hwve a state, but at one time in american history a state for us Deaf was explored as an idea.
anyway for us its not about race Its about language.
Its via our language that we define ourselvs. Its via our sign
So
When someone refuses to sign with us, or demands we stop signing, or insisists we babbledable english..
We wont accept them. Because they by default by refusing to accept and use our language do not accept us,