Not Deaf enough??

[Swedeafa]

The requirement for being an American is citizenship.

The criteria is needed by those who might want to be accepted.

That's true only in one context. I assume that immigrants most often are considered American as soon as they get their citizenship, but this is not the case in all countries. You might have a citizenship, but don't know the language and don't mix with the society in general. You might yourself feel that you are closer to a different culture because you know more about it. There might be a difference between a formal definition and an informal.

Another way to see it is: are you old? The answer depends on the context. You might be considered old in one context and not in another. (There is only a specific definition when needed, for example if you can retire or not.)

But ok, if it is possible do define criteria for who is Deaf, I am curious to read. I didn't mean to disturb the discussion, sorry.

 

[millythekid]

I can't believe I'm seeing people post about Joplin. I was born and raised in Carthage MO, about 20 minutes away from Joplin.

Sorry. Although I was HoH while young, I was the only person, apart from my own Mom, who I knew with hearing problems. I have seen 'as from afar' the occasional Deaf person as an adult--but never met a Deaf person, personally, until around the time I joined this forum. If there is a Deaf community in Missouri I don't know of it. However, there is a Missouri Association of the Deaf. I will get the website.

Come to think of it--in the 1990's, while visiting family back home, I noticed several local churches in the Carthage/Joplin area interpreted for the Deaf. Most of the television networks are based in Joplin (or Pittsburgh Kansas, a stone's throw away). I'm going to Google some things and get back to you.

I do believe that it was Central Institute For the Deaf here in St. Louis which emphasized the oral method only. No idea if that was a statewide policy.

I love Carthage, it's such a beautiful town. I'm actually from Pittsburg, KS and I've even tried finding a deaf community there. The problem is that I'm in such a small city that I'm sure the deaf community is gone. Lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using AllDeaf App mobile app

 

[hoichi]

My point was that I did not believe ASL alone was enough for admission to Deaf culture. But, as Swedeafa stated, "CODAs, children of deaf adults, often have no hearing loss, but they can be part of the Deaf culture". If that is true, then the only requirement is ASL. I thought there was more to it than that. However, this is the same view held by hoichi, "Actually you can be culturaly Deaf with out hearing loss. coda who sign are accepted. Our measure is sign. NOT an adiogram. The quicker you accept that the better.. "

From a philosophical perspective, what are the beliefs of current Deaf Culture members? What do they all believe in that makes it a culture?

Well im certainly a member of Deaf culture, ive been Deaf for 30 years, Deafie school, and gally..i sign, i sign with my Deafies, i sign with hearies,,
We as a culture dont hold the medical model of deafness. As in we dont hold an adiogram as the sole requirement for bieng accepted as Deaf. All the adiogram does is Mesesure your lack of hearing. and its an outsider approach. Developed by outsiders, for measuring ehst we as Deaf in their eyes lack,
thus we use sign as our measure. Sign for Deafie in america and canada besides quebec, and for some Deafie in mexico for us is ASL, and language is so deeply rooted in culture to us if one wishes to be accepted by us as Deaf one must then learn our language which also means our culture.
Im not sure why some have difficulty with this idea, to me its so simple, but to each their own i guess...
And yes CODA if they sign and wish to be are accepted as part of Deaf cuture.
Some guy waving an adiogram around at us and flapping his beak like a hearie, and refusing to sign simply will NOT be. Regardless on what ever that adiogram states,
It really is that simple.

 

[hoichi]

The requirement for being an American is citizenship.

The criteria is needed by those who might want to be accepted.

Sure. But thats not the case for other nations or cultures..
An example from recent memory that might help here is the american snowden.
He now has a russian passport.
But is he russian?
The answer is obviously no. Passport regardless the man isnt a russian, he is an american holding a russian passport.
Thats the plm with using nation states or natonality interchable with culture.
It doesnt really equate. Its best not to try to equate them,

 

[Reba]

. . . And yes CODA if they sign and wish to be are accepted as part of Deaf cuture.
Some guy waving an adiogram around at us and flapping his beak like a hearie, and refusing to sign simply will NOT be. Regardless on what ever that adiogram states,
It really is that simple.
Now of course one can be a hearie nd sign and wont be a member of our culture. Terps for intAnce. Because they are hearie using our language as a job, its not their language, they are intermidiaries, thats all...
Anyway...

What about hearing spouses of Deaf community members who learn and use ASL, know and support Deaf culture, and fellowship with and support the Deaf community? Would they be included?

 

[hoichi]

What about hearing spouses of Deaf community members who learn and use ASL, know and support Deaf culture, and fellowship with and support the Deaf community? Would they be included?

Stange, i must of edited my postor something, the last psrt is now missing....mmmmmmm. need more.cofee...(slaps face twice)
Anyway..

If they truly used sign , not as some half bread sometime language, and if they wished to.be accepted amongst us..
yes.
ive known adiological hearie who just were more confortible amongst us, more at one with sign then hesrie babble dabble, its rare,snd i think its easy to splice snd dice this conversation using extreme what ifs or extreme examples so on...but extreme cases besides,
To awnswer your above question.
Those people if they wished to and truly signed then would be,sfter some time ....

 

[VacationGuy234]

Some guy waving an adiogram around at us and flapping his beak like a hearie, and refusing to sign simply will NOT be. Regardless on what ever that adiogram states,
It really is that simple.

I see your point. It is really simple. You don't have to be deaf. It's really more of a sign culture than a Deaf culture. If it was called sign culture, you wouldn't have to deal with every beak flapping, audio-gram waving deaf or hearing person who thinks he should be a part of that culture. Although, there might be a small, tiny historical issue, but perhaps that fact could be overlooked.

 

[VacationGuy234]

I didn't mean to disturb the discussion, sorry.

Trust me, you haven't disturbed the discussion.

 

[hoichi]

I see your point. It is really simple. You don't have to be deaf. It's really more of a sign culture than a Deaf culture. If it was called sign culture, you wouldn't have to deal with every beak flapping, audio-gram waving deaf or hearing person who thinks he should be a part of that culture. Although, there might be a small, tiny historical issue, but perhaps that fact could be overlooked.

Sure. and who knows maybe in the future the consensus amongst us will be to use sgn culture as opposed to Deaf culture as a name scheme...
But as it stsnds now...
We use Deaf cukture..and that wont be chsnging any time soon..but sign culture is cool too..

 

[drphil]

Audiogram: Only shows what one's hearing status is. How one deals with the "condition" entirely up to "you".

To the above comment-#249 what is the differentiation between "sign vs Deaf culture"? Other than bald assertions on computers?

 

[hoichi]

Audiogram: Only shows what one's hearing status is. How one deals with the "condition" entirely up ot "you".

To the above comment-#249 what is the differentiation between "sign vs Deaf culture"? Other than bald assertions on computers?

what did i assert in that post?
You should ask vecationguy what he means from the term he posted...
As to yoir question to the difference between sign culture and Deaf culture. I would say its one of consensus.
So as it stands now, we Deaf use Deaf culture as a term to describe our culture,
And we Deaf use sign as our language and as a measure as to who we accept or not.

indeed its entirily up to you the individual on how one accpets themselves as Deaf or not..
Well
Unless your a baby getting drilled into for profits of course....

 

[drphil]

Another" circular" discussion.

 

[hoichi]

Another" circular" discussion.

Not at all.id prefer for you to be straight out. If you have any spacific question for me, pls by all means ask it.
If not
All cool.
Now, if you are asking me, about a term vecation guy first used in this thread, ill awnser it, though i think it better to ask him direcly. if you wont, again all cool.
I like the term he used" sign culture" as sign in ts various forms is our mode of language, and as such it is the fundimental life blood of our culture.
But as it stands at this time and in this moment. The consensus is we Deaf us Deaf culture as a term to define us.
In the future this may chsnge, who knows, but as it stands we use Deaf cultture.
Hope this helps clear what ever confusion you have had uo.
If not.
Feel free to ask more questions, and ill do my best to awnswer them

 

[VacationGuy234]

From all I have read on here, and it's quite a lot, it seems the culture has changed.

But, the question really becomes whether the members construct the culture or whether the construct of the culture creates the membership. If Deaf Culture is a democracy, how is that handled within the culture?

I think, without question, advances in technology have changed the culture. At least on some level of membership, the view of the culture is different than it was 15 years ago.

I'd be curious to know whether today, if Fernades were running for president again, she would still have to step down? Under the guidelines put forth in this thread, it seems unlikely. She could sign, unaided by interpretation I might add, so one would think that would be deaf enough, right.

A lot of interesting information here..

 

[hoichi]

[

From all I have read on here, and it's quite a lot, it seems the culture has changed.
.

Well water indeed is wet. Wether oud Culture has changed or not has never been disputed. Every living culture changes, only fossilized remains of desd cultures whith their xead languages remain unchanging. Has american culture changed the last 15 years? How about the last 50?

But, the question really becomes whether the members construct the culture or whether the construct of the culture creates the membership.
.

It is both. Humans (the members) create the culture, no other animal or entity is involved. Humans are synbolic creatures and we use symboks (language) and oir ideas (who belongs who does not) l. Humans create the culture, the symbols of the culturebused determine who belongs..ill concede otherwise if you demonstrate for me a non human culture..thay is existing.

If Deaf Culture is a democracy, how is that handled within the culture?
.

Its not a democracy in the clssico greaco roman sense, as it works with us is if you want to be accepeted with us as one of us you need to at least lesrn and use our language..i know for many this is a very hard idea to accept..but it is whaT it is.
But i ask have us Deaf ever accepted as Deaf non signers As Deaf?

I think, without question, advances in technology have changed the culture. At least on some level of membership, the view of the culture is different than it was 15 years ago.
.

Indeed technology has chnged our culture, but not just oirs. Hearie culture has changed raidly as well due to technology

I'd be curious to know whether today, if Fernades were running for president again, she would still have to step down? Under the guidelines put forth in this thread, it seems unlikely. She could sign, unaided by interpretation I might add, so one would think that would be deaf enough, right.

A lot of interesting information here..

Thats an interesting question, that should be explored.
Heres another one
Why do non signers as the ones who came into this thread even care what we Deaf do, and how we Deaf accept Deaf as Deaf or not?
Why does this matter to non signers?
Are we a novelty?
An odd interest?
Why do nonsigners and a fewbhave posted give a **** what the hell we so?
if you wont sign
Leave us alone

 

[VacationGuy234]

Actually, humans are not symbolic; they are phonetic. Symbolic language exists because at the time phonetic language had not been invented. It does not mean language was not phonetic(there was spoken language). We still use symbolic language today(mostly non-deaf), however, it is not proven to be intrinsically human. In fact, modern primates can learn sign as well.

The woman who came up with this thread is deaf. "Hey.. I'm new here too and I'm also from Sahuarita and here to make some new friends. I'm also hard of hearing and I been signing since I was 2 years old."

^ And, that's deaf enough for me.

I think deaf, as a whole, need to build bridges not dams. I think all people who are deaf are united under the common bond of being deaf. And, no, that does not include non-deaf. I think how we communicate is secondary to what we have all been through as deaf. Communication is something that can be overcome, being deaf is something that you are. It's not something that you learn from some course. That is why people are upset about, "not being deaf enough".

 

[hoichi]

[

Actually, humans are not symbolic;".

Oh yes we are. Its not the only thing we are. But we sure are symbolic. There is no doubt

they are phonetic. ".

Humans are symbolic, we create, use manipulate symbols. Both phonetic as well as manual, both ocular and oral

Symbolic language exists because at the time phonetic language had not been invented. It does not mean language was not phonetic(there was spoken language). ".

Language is symbolic. all language is symbolic whether its a signed language ASL or an oral one english

We still use symbolic language today(mostly non-deaf),".

I dont know what planet your on,but Deaf use symbolic language every damn day its called sign, and the sign language i use every damn day is ASL. do you even sign?

however, it is not proven to be intrinsically human
".

Yes language is intrinsicaly human...no other animals use it. We do. Its ours. You understand what "language" properly defined is right?

. In fact, modern primates can learn sign as well.
".

This is NOT fact at all. What this is, is complete nonsense...did you post this trash in jest? well, i guess parots speak and know english...do they?

The woman who came up with this thread is deaf. "Hey.. I'm new here too and I'm also from Sahuarita and here to make some new friends. I'm also hard of hearing and I been signing since I was 2 years old."
".

Sure..

^ And, that's deaf enough for me. ".

Me too

I think deaf, as a whole, need to build bridges not dams.".

Indeed

I think all people who are deaf are united under the common bond of being deaf.".

They certainly are under the medical paradigm of deaf...but thats not the pradigm we Deaf hold...your welcome to it though.

And, no, that does not include non-deaf. I think how we communicate is secondary to what we have all been through as deaf.
".

And your welcome to believe that too

Communication is something that can be overcome, being deaf is something that you are.".

Sure is

It's not something that you learn from some course. That is why people are upset about, "not being deaf enough".

Be upset all you want.
If you dont.sign
Your NOT Deaf....
And no pouting is going to change that...what will...is to learn and use sign....

 

[drphil]

Interesting- -one doesn't "Have to be deaf enough" to be a member of Alldeaf.com.

 

[hoichi]

Interesting- -one doesn't "Have to be deaf enough" to be a member of Alldeaf.com.

Of course not. Deaf, deaf hard of hearing and haries are welcome here..
Sure...

 

[Nic]

I think becoming part of Deaf culture is a lot like becoming a part of any other culture. You can't just raise your hand an opt-in to a culture and be accepted right then. It's something that happens over time and in a natural sort of way.

My family came to the U.S. from Germany. When my relatives first arrived, they spoke no English. My mom, a first gen American, learned German at home before English. She helped transition my grandparents. Eventually they became Americans (not just legally). It didn't happen overnight, it took years, decades to be fully integrated, and even then they weren't like people born in the U.S., but it all happened very naturally.

Language ties a culture together, for sure. It's crucial that anyone joining another culture learn the language, so like Hoichi is saying, ASL would be a requirement; but I don't think it's the only requirement. I also don't think late deafened, or hearing people will ever be at the same level as native Deaf (CODA could be an exception here, depending on upbringing and exposure, etc.). But, they don't have to. Just like my grandparents, you can be accepted into another culture without being a native. The same, but different; and it's those differences that make things interesting.