Feelings on how a Deaf child should be taught

rick48 said:
When we were seeking advice for our daughter after she became deaf, deaf adults who were part of AGBell, as well as CICI, were some of the best sources of information and inspiration. If you knew anything about AGBell then you would know that many of its members are deaf adults. Further, the experiences of those who are in constant contact with the deaf community but are not deaf, should not be discounted as they can offer a different perspective.

We sought advice from many who were part of the deaf community and conventions such as AGBell's afforded us the opportunity to meet and talk to literally hundreds of deaf adults, parents of deaf children, deaf educators, audiologists, cochlear implant teams, etc. all gathered in one place. Taking advantage of that opportunity to benefit our daughter was the real "no-brainer".
Rick
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And all operating from a strictly oral perspective, no doubt.
 
Being "happy" as an oral deaf person

If any of you had met me 15 or so years ago, I would have told you how happy I am being oral and not needing deaf friends nor ASL. The truth was I was a very unhappy person but didnt understand it. I kept finding ways to fill in the void I had grew up with with materials, by making myself ultra thin, by buying brand name clothes, having a luxury car, and drinking a lot at parties. The truth was I was denying and lying to myself about who I really was...a deaf person not a hearing person. I kept identifying myself with my hearing peers but was unable to do so fully hence the void that I didnt recognize. It wasnt until I learned ASL and went to Gallaudet University was when I realized what was missing all of my life. My deaf identity and the feeling of belonging or having a real connection to others.

Since learning ASL, finding people who accept me unconditionally (not all Deaf people accepted me at first), and having full access to communication most of the time via ASL which gave me a healthy balance of ASL and spoken English. Now, I am not in a restrictive environment 24/7 always feeling left out, missing out, or trying to keep up in which caused the stress I that grew up with gradually got smaller and smaller. I am so happy not to live with this constant tight ball in my stomach 24/7 anymore and really can relax like my hearing peers did. It must have been nice for my hearing peers to grow up without this constant stress and I ask.."Why was I put in an environment like that? Why were my rights to full access to language and communication were disregarded?" It was because the so-called oralists believed that it would give me more opportunities than someone who was raised with sign language. Well, it turned out to be a bunch of bullcrap.
 
I believe that the vast majority of members of AG Bell are not deaf individuals.

I have had contact with AG Bell in my local area and they have been exceedlingly negative experiences. I have been asked to leave activites because my daughter was signing and they didn't want the other children to see it. This was in the last 2 years, not ancient history.
 
shel90 said:
If any of you had met me 15 or so years ago, I would have told you how happy I am being oral and not needing deaf friends nor ASL. The truth was I was a very unhappy person but didnt understand it. I kept finding ways to fill in the void I had grew up with with materials, by making myself ultra thin, by buying brand name clothes, having a luxury car, and drinking a lot at parties. The truth was I was denying and lying to myself about who I really was...a deaf person not a hearing person. I kept identifying myself with my hearing peers but was unable to do so fully hence the void that I didnt recognize. It wasnt until I learned ASL and went to Gallaudet University was when I realized what was missing all of my life. My deaf identity and the feeling of belonging or having a real connection to others.

Since learning ASL, finding people who accept me unconditionally (not all Deaf people accepted me at first), and having full access to communication most of the time via ASL which gave me a healthy balance of ASL and spoken English. Now, I am not in a restrictive environment 24/7 always feeling left out, missing out, or trying to keep up in which caused the stress I that grew up with gradually got smaller and smaller. I am so happy not to live with this constant tight ball in my stomach 24/7 anymore and really can relax like my hearing peers did. It must have been nice for my hearing peers to grow up without this constant stress and I ask.."Why was I put in an environment like that? Why were my rights to full access to language and communication were disregarded?" It was because the so-called oralists believed that it would give me more opportunities than someone who was raised with sign language. Well, it turned out to be a bunch of bullcrap.
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Please let me steal this quote and slap my name on the bottom, as it is exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) my thoughts and my experiences. It gives me goose bumps knowing there's someone out there who went throught what I did. *goose bumps on arms*
 
deafbajagal said:
How is it wrong? Please explain. I'm sincerely curious.
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Our contacts with deaf individuals, professionals, organizations were not strictly from an oral perspective. We looked at and met with those who consider themselves to have been culturally Deaf. Thus, that is how it is wrong. But remember, as I was responding to someone who trolls and argues for argument sake, I just consider the source of the comment and give it the weight it deserves: none.
Rick
 
faire_jour said:
I believe that the vast majority of members of AG Bell are not deaf individuals.

I have had contact with AG Bell in my local area and they have been exceedlingly negative experiences. I have been asked to leave activites because my daughter was signing and they didn't want the other children to see it. This was in the last 2 years, not ancient history.
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I have never counted, but there are many deaf individuals who are AGBell members.

As for your contact with your local AGBell chapter, I can now better understand and appreciate your feelings towards AGBell as they seem similar to our experiences with the Deaf Community and their reactions to our daughter's cochlear implant.

Too bad you were not a member of our local AGBell chapter for we welcomed anyone in, especially if you could pay the dues! :)
Rick
 
rick48 said:
I have never counted, but there are many deaf individuals who are AGBell members.

As for your contact with your local AGBell chapter, I can now better understand and appreciate your feelings towards AGBell as they seem similar to our experiences with the Deaf Community and their reactions to our daughter's cochlear implant.
Too bad you were not a member of our local AGBell chapter for we welcomed anyone in, especially if you could pay the dues! :)
Rick
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Do you think if the deaf community treated you different, that you and your wife would have chosen different avenues for your daughter? I'm sorry you were mistreated by the deaf community. There are always a few bad apples in a barrel.

Speaking of membership to AGBell, I'm not allowed to join. I've been banned from membership and even from attending their conferences/workshops because I had expressed my opinions openly at one of their conferences as a guest speaker.
 
shel90 said:
If any of you had met me 15 or so years ago, I would have told you how happy I am being oral and not needing deaf friends nor ASL. The truth was I was a very unhappy person but didnt understand it. I kept finding ways to fill in the void I had grew up with with materials, by making myself ultra thin, by buying brand name clothes, having a luxury car, and drinking a lot at parties. The truth was I was denying and lying to myself about who I really was...a deaf person not a hearing person. I kept identifying
shel90 said:
If any of you had met me 15 or so years ago, I would have told you how happy I am being oral and not needing deaf friends nor ASL. The truth was I was a very unhappy person but didnt understand it. I kept finding ways to fill in the void I had grew up with with materials, by making myself ultra thin, by buying brand name clothes, having a luxury car, and drinking a lot at parties. The truth was I was denying and lying to myself about who I really was...a deaf person not a hearing person. I kept identifying myself with my hearing peers but was unable to do so fully hence the void that I didnt recognize. It wasnt until I learned ASL and went to Gallaudet University was when I realized what was missing all of my life. My deaf identity and the feeling of belonging or having a real connection to others.

Since learning ASL, finding people who accept me unconditionally (not all Deaf people accepted me at first), and having full access to communication most of the time via ASL which gave me a healthy balance of ASL and spoken English. Now, I am not in a restrictive environment 24/7 always feeling left out, missing out, or trying to keep up in which caused the stress I that grew up with gradually got smaller and smaller. I am so happy not to live with this constant tight ball in my stomach 24/7 anymore and really can relax like my hearing peers did. It must have been nice for my hearing peers to grow up without this constant stress and I ask.."Why was I put in an environment like that? Why were my rights to full access to language and communication were disregarded?" It was because the so-called oralists believed that it would give me more opportunities than someone who was raised with sign language. Well, it turned out to be a bunch of bullcrap.
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See, we actually agree more than it seems at first. The positives I see of my daughter's oral education is that she can get along in the real world and has few limits regarding communication--she can communicate orally with the hearing world without barriers. The negatives I see are what you talked about--the part of oral education that kind of denies the hearing loss, doesn't really encourage "deaf identity" and in some ways creates barriers in social situations (by seeing life in the mainstream as the "holy grail" and not really encouraging as much social interaction with others who are deaf). What I am saying is this: the side that says something like "oral only--deny deafness--live only in the hearing world--you don't need to be with other deaf people because you function as a hearing person"--THAT PART IS WRONG! I also think that the side that says "ALL deaf people should use ASL because it is the natural language of ALL deaf people--Deaf should be with Deaf and rarely socialize with the hearing world--and once a deaf person learns ASL and becomes part of the Deaf world they will always feel most comfortable there and won't feel as comfortable in the hearing world"--THAT IS ALSO WRONG!! To assume all or nothing--that is the WRONG from BOTH sides!!

I disagree with the "oralists" who did not think my daughter would EVER want to learn ASL or be with other deaf people. I also disagree with people who assume that because THEY are happy using ASL ONLY and THEY are happy not speaking and THEY are happy being mostly in the Deaf community, that ALL deaf people should feel that way. So I still stand by what I have said--on the ONE hand, my daughter IS happy to be oral--in that she LOVES to talk and is glad that we did not deny her that opportunity. But on the other hand, she is NOT happy about the seclusion of being an oral deaf person solely in the hearing world--she DOES want to ALSO be a part of the Deaf community--she just does not want to leave the hearing world behind.

So, she learned some signs when she was young, then built her English spoken and receptive vocabulary, and now would like to build her ASL vocabulary. She doesn't want to deny her deafness--she wants to claim her deaf identity--she doesn't want to be completely in the hearing world without contact with other deaf people her age--the talking part of "oralism" is the positive, the seclusion and loneliness is the negative. She wants to learn ASL and be a part of the Deaf community, but she doesn't want to choose ONLY that option--she wants to make friends like herself--she wants to keep talking to others who are deaf, too--the positive part of this is the social benefits of being with others like herself, the negative would be if people in the Deaf community shunned her because she prefers to talk more than sign. See, there are good things and bad things about both!

The complete denial of deafness and the lack of social interaction with deaf people in the mainstream are some very strong negatives about oralism that we are trying to repair for our daughter--but there are no regrets about going the route where she learned to listen and speak--that part was a wonderful decision and she is happy about that part. And now, we are hoping that our daughter can learn ASL and be a part of the Deaf community--we are hoping that she can find her deaf identity and have a wonderful social life--but to assume that once she does that she will want to completely jump into a silent world(which she cannot ever really do because she is not profoundly deaf) and never really look back--to think that once they discover the wonderful acceptance within the Deaf world that ALL deaf people will want to stop talking and never look back--that is assuming an awful lot about other people.

Can't people be happy about speaking and also be happy about finding ASL and the Deaf community? Can't they be glad that they can go anywhere and do anything because they can hear and speak, yet still be very glad to have a lot of friends in the Deaf community? Can't we all see that black or white/all or nothing/pick one side or the other but not both--that is very unfair to those who DO enjoy speaking AND DO enjoy being part of the Deaf community?

So I am admitting that the lack of socialization with other deaf people is a regret, but the fact that my daughter enjoys speaking is not a regret. The Deaf community can be a WONDERFUL resource, but not the ONLY resource. Once again, there is good and bad about BOTH sides--and I think it is most fair to let deaf people who want to be on both sides to do so without being made to feel as if they have to give up one to be a part of the other. Keep in mind that there are MANY degrees of deafness--and also, a lot of people are hearing at first and then late deafened--not everyone is born Deaf to Deaf parents and raised solely in the Deaf community. We should ALL keep an open mind about other's experiences and ideas.

I am a hearing woman who has heard from BOTH sides and I have made decisions that would be classified BOTH ways. The oral side would be "proud" because my daughter is a wonderful listener and speaker, but they wouldn't understand why she wants to go to a deaf school for high school--that shows lack of tolerance. The Deaf side will be "proud" of my daughter when she is fluent in ASL and a part of the Deaf community, but it seems that many won't understand if she chooses to use her voice that God gave her because she WANTS to do so--that also shows a lack of tolerance. We should all be more tolerant. I want to look into an organization that I have heard of called "Hands and Voices"--from what I can see, it is BOTH sides coming together in tolerance and acceptance--THAT is the ideal situation! :)
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Tolerance and respecting what the other "side" is saying is very important...especially when you look at the fact that nothing is "black and white" when it comes to assuring that your child has the best education possible.
 
Deborah said:
shel90 said:
If any of you had met me 15 or so years ago, I would have told you how happy I am being oral and not needing deaf friends nor ASL. The truth was I was a very unhappy person but didnt understand it. I kept finding ways to fill in the void I had grew up with with materials, by making myself ultra thin, by buying brand name clothes, having a luxury car, and drinking a lot at parties. The truth was I was denying and lying to myself about who I really was...a deaf person not a hearing person. I kept identifying


See, we actually agree more than it seems at first. The positives I see of my daughter's oral education is that she can get along in the real world and has few limits regarding communication--she can communicate orally with the hearing world without barriers. The negatives I see are what you talked about--the part of oral education that kind of denies the hearing loss, doesn't really encourage "deaf identity" and in some ways creates barriers in social situations (by seeing life in the mainstream as the "holy grail" and not really encouraging as much social interaction with others who are deaf). What I am saying is this: the side that says something like "oral only--deny deafness--live only in the hearing world--you don't need to be with other deaf people because you function as a hearing person"--THAT PART IS WRONG! I also think that the side that says "ALL deaf people should use ASL because it is the natural language of ALL deaf people--Deaf should be with Deaf and rarely socialize with the hearing world--and once a deaf person learns ASL and becomes part of the Deaf world they will always feel most comfortable there and won't feel as comfortable in the hearing world"--THAT IS ALSO WRONG!! To assume all or nothing--that is the WRONG from BOTH sides!!

I disagree with the "oralists" who did not think my daughter would EVER want to learn ASL or be with other deaf people. I also disagree with people who assume that because THEY are happy using ASL ONLY and THEY are happy not speaking and THEY are happy being mostly in the Deaf community, that ALL deaf people should feel that way. So I still stand by what I have said--on the ONE hand, my daughter IS happy to be oral--in that she LOVES to talk and is glad that we did not deny her that opportunity. But on the other hand, she is NOT happy about the seclusion of being an oral deaf person solely in the hearing world--she DOES want to ALSO be a part of the Deaf community--she just does not want to leave the hearing world behind.

So, she learned some signs when she was young, then built her English spoken and receptive vocabulary, and now would like to build her ASL vocabulary. She doesn't want to deny her deafness--she wants to claim her deaf identity--she doesn't want to be completely in the hearing world without contact with other deaf people her age--the talking part of "oralism" is the positive, the seclusion and loneliness is the negative. She wants to learn ASL and be a part of the Deaf community, but she doesn't want to choose ONLY that option--she wants to make friends like herself--she wants to keep talking to others who are deaf, too--the positive part of this is the social benefits of being with others like herself, the negative would be if people in the Deaf community shunned her because she prefers to talk more than sign. See, there are good things and bad things about both!

The complete denial of deafness and the lack of social interaction with deaf people in the mainstream are some very strong negatives about oralism that we are trying to repair for our daughter--but there are no regrets about going the route where she learned to listen and speak--that part was a wonderful decision and she is happy about that part. And now, we are hoping that our daughter can learn ASL and be a part of the Deaf community--we are hoping that she can find her deaf identity and have a wonderful social life--but to assume that once she does that she will want to completely jump into a silent world(which she cannot ever really do because she is not profoundly deaf) and never really look back--to think that once they discover the wonderful acceptance within the Deaf world that ALL deaf people will want to stop talking and never look back--that is assuming an awful lot about other people.

Can't people be happy about speaking and also be happy about finding ASL and the Deaf community? Can't they be glad that they can go anywhere and do anything because they can hear and speak, yet still be very glad to have a lot of friends in the Deaf community? Can't we all see that black or white/all or nothing/pick one side or the other but not both--that is very unfair to those who DO enjoy speaking AND DO enjoy being part of the Deaf community?

So I am admitting that the lack of socialization with other deaf people is a regret, but the fact that my daughter enjoys speaking is not a regret. The Deaf community can be a WONDERFUL resource, but not the ONLY resource. Once again, there is good and bad about BOTH sides--and I think it is most fair to let deaf people who want to be on both sides to do so without being made to feel as if they have to give up one to be a part of the other. Keep in mind that there are MANY degrees of deafness--and also, a lot of people are hearing at first and then late deafened--not everyone is born Deaf to Deaf parents and raised solely in the Deaf community. We should ALL keep an open mind about other's experiences and ideas.

I am a hearing woman who has heard from BOTH sides and I have made decisions that would be classified BOTH ways. The oral side would be "proud" because my daughter is a wonderful listener and speaker, but they wouldn't understand why she wants to go to a deaf school for high school--that shows lack of tolerance. The Deaf side will be "proud" of my daughter when she is fluent in ASL and a part of the Deaf community, but it seems that many won't understand if she chooses to use her voice that God gave her because she WANTS to do so--that also shows a lack of tolerance. We should all be more tolerant. I want to look into an organization that I have heard of called "Hands and Voices"--from what I can see, it is BOTH sides coming together in tolerance and acceptance--THAT is the ideal situation! :)
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That is why I am all for both instead of one or the other only.
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deafbajagal said:
Do you think if the deaf community treated you different, that you and your wife would have chosen different avenues for your daughter? I'm sorry you were mistreated by the deaf community. There are always a few bad apples in a barrel.

Speaking of membership to AGBell, I'm not allowed to join. I've been banned from membership and even from attending their conferences/workshops because I had expressed my opinions openly at one of their conferences as a guest speaker.
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My brother wasnt allowed to attend any of the AGBell conferences cuz of his lack of oral skills which was why my mom stopped being a member. I was too little at the time.

yes, there are a few bad apples int he Deaf community and for someone to take those few bad apples to generalize a whole population is just as wrong as those few bad apples.

Heck, I have been rejected by those few bad apples but WHO GIVES A *&&*(, I was going to find my way in the Deaf community whether those bad apples like it or not. Turns out that the majority of Deaf people are not like them! Parents like the one you are referring to need to stop blaming a whole community for some people's bad behavior to them.
 
deafbajagal said:
Please let me steal this quote and slap my name on the bottom, as it is exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) my thoughts and my experiences. It gives me goose bumps knowing there's someone out there who went throught what I did. *goose bumps on arms*
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Awww....there are at least 50 others whom I personally know who have felt the exact same way as we do. :) Here is a :hug:
 
faire_jour said:
I believe that the vast majority of members of AG Bell are not deaf individuals.

I have had contact with AG Bell in my local area and they have been exceedlingly negative experiences. I have been asked to leave activites because my daughter was signing and they didn't want the other children to see it. This was in the last 2 years, not ancient history.
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Shame on AGBELL...they should be ashamed of themselves. Ugh! No wonder my mom feels the same as u since they rejected my brother cuz he "failed" to be an oral success. They can kiss my *&&s! LOL!

Those who are deaf who are members of AGBeall are more likely the ones who are premodimately oral who see ASL as something they dont need or better off without.
 
deafbajagal said:
Do you think if the deaf community treated you different, that you and your wife would have chosen different avenues for your daughter? I'm sorry you were mistreated by the deaf community. There are always a few bad apples in a barrel.

Speaking of membership to AGBell, I'm not allowed to join. I've been banned from membership and even from attending their conferences/workshops because I had expressed my opinions openly at one of their conferences as a guest speaker.
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The avenue we chose for our daughter was too important to be determined by the negative experiences we and our daughter were subjected to. The avenue we chose for her was what we determined was in her best interests. It was the Deaf community's loss, not ours or our daughter's because they lost the opportunity to learn from my daughter and my wife.

Believe me, it was more then just a "few bad apples" it was a culture that showed its intolerance and bigotedness towards us as parents and our daughter, a child, because we chose a path that they did not agree with. When you had the President of the NAD and its then spokesperson for anti-childhood cochlear implantation comment negatively specifically as to our decision to implant our child, when you had members of the Deaf culture call our child a guinea pig, robot and frankenstein and us child abusers and nazis to our faces, the euphemism of a "few bad apples" is a poor attempt to mask their despicable behavior.

As has been demonstated on this forum several times, there are still more of these "few bad apples" around even in this day and age. The good news is that their numbers are decreasing as more and more Deaf people choose cochlear implants either for themselves or for their children.

As for AGBell, I am not a big fan of the organization but I can understand the decision of a private organization to deny membership to and ban someone from its conferences who chooses to speak out against the organization at one of its conferences. I do not know what you said so it is not possible for me to say whether I agree with their decision.
Rick
 
rick48 said:
When we were seeking advice for our daughter after she became deaf, deaf adults who were part of AGBell, as well as CICI, were some of the best sources of information and inspiration. If you knew anything about AGBell then you would know that many of its members are deaf adults. Further, the experiences of those who are in constant contact with the deaf community but are not deaf, should not be discounted as they can offer a different perspective.

We sought advice from many who were part of the deaf community and conventions such as AGBell's afforded us the opportunity to meet and talk to literally hundreds of deaf adults, parents of deaf children, deaf educators, audiologists, cochlear implant teams, etc. all gathered in one place. Taking advantage of that opportunity to benefit our daughter was the real "no-brainer".
Rick
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Sounds like you already decided on the path for your daughter well before your "research". AGBell would never let any pro-ASL people in. Therefore you really never talked to any Deaf person in the Deaf community (not in AGBell).
 
rick48 said:
I have never counted, but there are many deaf individuals who are AGBell members.

As for your contact with your local AGBell chapter, I can now better understand and appreciate your feelings towards AGBell as they seem similar to our experiences with the Deaf Community and their reactions to our daughter's cochlear implant.

Too bad you were not a member of our local AGBell chapter for we welcomed anyone in, especially if you could pay the dues! :)
Rick
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There are no dues in the Deaf community other than willingness to learn ASL. :squint:
 
Buffalo said:
Sounds like you already decided on the path for your daughter well before your "research". AGBell would never let any pro-ASL people in. Therefore you really never talked to any Deaf person in the Deaf community (not in AGBell).
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I forgot that you were with us every step of the way when we deciding what was best for our child and you know each and every person we met, every piece of literature we read and every seminar, meeting and convention we attended.

In order to help you out as you seem to need it, the sarcasam is defintely intended and direrected at you.

Have a nice day.
rick
 
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