Differences between SEE/PSE/ASL

Sheila

New Member
As far as the different signing systems in America, there are more than three, but all systems can basically fit into those three main categories. There are some that are "in-betweens."

SEE:
This includes SEE 1 and SEE 2. I always get them confused, but one means Signing Exact English and the other means Seeing Essential English. They are slightly different, but both use contextually inaccurate signs [i.e. my nose is RUN-ING (ASL sign for RUN with the affix ING after) This can be directed from the nose or signed in neutral space depending on which SEE is being used], use different handshapes for normal signs to show tense (HAS, HAVE, HAD, WERE, WAS), and use a lot of initialized signing (OCEAN-Same as ASL OCEAN, but signed with O-Hands). There is a two out of three rule for SEE 1 and 2. The three rules are:
  1. How the word sounds
  2. How the word is spelled
  3. What the word means
When deciding what sign to choose for SEE 1 or 2, this rule was invented (Yes "invented." Hearing people sat down and made up a language they thought would benefit Deaf children). If the word in question was BEAR and used in the sentence, "Please bear with me." one would look at the sound of the word bear, how it is spelled, and the meaning (notice that the meaning is the last in the list, making it the least important). Both the noun and verb form of bear sound and are spelled the same, but the meaning is different (as is the example with the word RUN), but that doesn't matter in SEE 1 or 2. Since two rules match, the noun BEAR will be signed instead of the verb BEAR. So the sentence will literally be "Please BEAR-ANIMAL with me" not "Please BE-PATIENT with me."

CASE:
Conceptually Accurate Signed English. Same as SEE 1 and 2 but it doesn't use the 2 out of 3 rule (thank goodness).

PSE:
Pigeon Signed English. This system uses ASL signs, almost completely conceptually accurate, no prefixes, and includes non-manual markers (expression, eyebrow movement, body shifts).

All of the above sign systems are considered MCE: Manually Coded English. This is because these languages were created with interference from outside the Deaf Community. Simultaneous Communication is also included in this category because it was not a natural way of expression when it was first used.

ASL:
The natural development of a language by people who use it everyday. It is very spacial, uses already natural movements for the anatomy of the human body (circular motions, not sharp jerky ones like some MCE), can express abstract ideas without using "words"... the list goes on.

I am by no means an expert, but one of my aspirations is to go to Gallaudet and get a degree in ASL Linguistics.

If anyone else has anything else to add, please do!
 

jillio

New Member
As far as the different signing systems in America, there are more than three, but all systems can basically fit into those three main categories. There are some that are "in-betweens."

SEE:
This includes SEE 1 and SEE 2. I always get them confused, but one means Signing Exact English and the other means Seeing Essential English. They are slightly different, but both use contextually inaccurate signs [i.e. my nose is RUN-ING (ASL sign for RUN with the affix ING after) This can be directed from the nose or signed in neutral space depending on which SEE is being used], use different handshapes for normal signs to show tense (HAS, HAVE, HAD, WERE, WAS), and use a lot of initialized signing (OCEAN-Same as ASL OCEAN, but signed with O-Hands). There is a two out of three rule for SEE 1 and 2. The three rules are:
  1. How the word sounds
  2. How the word is spelled
  3. What the word means
When deciding what sign to choose for SEE 1 or 2, this rule was invented (Yes "invented." Hearing people sat down and made up a language they thought would benefit Deaf children). If the word in question was BEAR and used in the sentence, "Please bear with me." one would look at the sound of the word bear, how it is spelled, and the meaning (notice that the meaning is the last in the list, making it the least important). Both the noun and verb form of bear sound and are spelled the same, but the meaning is different (as is the example with the word RUN), but that doesn't matter in SEE 1 or 2. Since two rules match, the noun BEAR will be signed instead of the verb BEAR. So the sentence will literally be "Please BEAR-ANIMAL with me" not "Please BE-PATIENT with me."

CASE:
Conceptually Accurate Signed English. Same as SEE 1 and 2 but it doesn't use the 2 out of 3 rule (thank goodness).

PSE:
Pigeon Signed English. This system uses ASL signs, almost completely conceptually accurate, no prefixes, and includes non-manual markers (expression, eyebrow movement, body shifts).

All of the above sign systems are considered MCE: Manually Coded English. This is because these languages were created with interference from outside the Deaf Community. Simultaneous Communication is also included in this category because it was not a natural way of expression when it was first used.

ASL:
The natural development of a language by people who use it everyday. It is very spacial, uses already natural movements for the anatomy of the human body (circular motions, not sharp jerky ones like some MCE), can express abstract ideas without using "words"... the list goes on.

I am by no means an expert, but one of my aspirations is to go to Gallaudet and get a degree in ASL Linguistics.

If anyone else has anything else to add, please do!
If you will check my topic in this forum with almost the same title, you will find a good description of the differences, and what the problems with the MCE systems are.
 

Sheila

New Member
If you will check my topic in this forum with almost the same title, you will find a good description of the differences, and what the problems with the MCE systems are.
I saw your post before I did this one and I thought they were different enough for a new thread. I didn't want to take yours off topic.

You are focusing on which sign language system has benefits in different situations and is asking for opinions/experience. Mine is comparing the languages to each other and looking for more linguistic responses.
 

jillio

New Member
I saw your post before I did this one and I thought they were different enough for a new thread. I didn't want to take yours off topic.

You are focusing on which sign language system has benefits in different situations and is asking for opinions/experience. Mine is comparing the languages to each other and looking for more linguistic responses.
Actually, mine does comapre the systems linguistically. MCE's are not true languages nor are they true pidgins. ASL is a true and naturally evolving laguistic system based on visual/spatial processing. Adding signs from a visual spatially processed language to a linear syntax creates difficulties in understanding concept. MCE's are cumbersome,and attempt to commmunicate an oral syntax to a visual spatial language. They are really unneccesary, as ASL does this inherently. Therefore, MCE's are simply differnent versoins of English, and ar not languages by their own right. Just as written English is another form of spoken English made visable, so are MCE's. While perhaps useful for some commmunication purposes, they are really not very useful when language acquisition is the issue.
 

Sheila

New Member
I think this points out the problems of using one of the MCE's rather than taking a bi-bi approach in education. What do you think?
The ultimate question you are asking is PREFERENCES.

I want to hear from people who are professionals in this field. If you are one, GREAT! Post something relevant and don't say that mine is the same as yours. We have different goals.
 

jillio

New Member
The ultimate question you are asking is PREFERENCES.

I want to hear from people who are professionals in this field. If you are one, GREAT! Post something relevant and don't say that mine is the same as yours. We have different goals.
Excuse me? And yes, I am a professional in the field, and yes I did post something relevant. You said you wanted to approach it from a linguistic point of view, and that is what I have done. SEE1 See2 PSE CS and anyof the other MCE's are linguistically English. ASL is the only fully separate language that is signed based that you have mentioned that falls into a separate linguistic category.
 

Sheila

New Member
Excuse me? And yes, I am a professional in the field, and yes I did post something relevant. You said you wanted to approach it from a linguistic point of view, and that is what I have done. SEE1 See2 PSE CS and anyof the other MCE's are linguistically English.
You're excused and I am grateful for your recent contribution. Your above posts were not of linguistic nature. You were saying that I re-posted something that you already did when MY general question was DIFFERENT than YOUR question. Just a bit of different opinions I suppose...

So which one is SEE 1 and SEE 2? I thought it was SEE 1: Seeing Essential English and SEE 2: Signing Exact English.
ASL is the only fully separate language that is signed based that you have mentioned that falls into a separate linguistic category.
Agreed.
 

jillio

New Member
You're excused and I am grateful for your recent contribution. Your above posts were not of linguistic nature. You were saying that I re-posted something that you already did when MY general question was DIFFERENT than YOUR question. Just a bit of different opinions I suppose...

So which one is SEE 1 and SEE 2? I thought it was SEE 1: Seeing Essential English and SEE 2: Signing Exact English.


Agreed.
You are correct in your designations. And actually, my post was citing the linguisitc reasons that MCE's are not effective.
 

BearBeauty

New Member
Honestly, As someone who's seen all 3 sign langauges. I have to say..

I'm SICK of people assuming SEE changes ASL signs and makes them using the first letter of the word. This is simply not true. I've seen so many videos that BUTCHER SEE. It makes me mad. SEE uses the SAME signs as ASL, it just does them exactly as written. I know there are people who will say "SEE is not a real language" ect Please, if it helps someone understand, let them use it. Don't complain bout how "It is not a real language." I am not talking about educators (If any educators happen to see this)

PSE or Pidgen Sign Language uses ASL signs in English word order, but it only signs the important words or enough of the sentence to be understood. It's not SEE, it's not ASL, it's somewhere in the middle.

ASL I don't know well, I can't use it much because for me it can be confusing at times and can lead to miscommunications. But I try to understand.

Sorry, but I read blogs, watch Vlogs, and read some threads here on alldeaf, and they make SEE or PSE seem like a bad thing. If it's such a bad thing, then I should stop posting, stop signing altogether, and live in a world of silence and lonliness once more. And honestly, I don't like that idea.
 

Sheila

New Member
I'm SICK of people assuming SEE changes ASL signs and makes them using the first letter of the word. This is simply not true. I've seen so many videos that BUTCHER SEE. It makes me mad. SEE uses the SAME signs as ASL, it just does them exactly as written.
Not ALL signs are ASL signs initialized in SEE, but it is a trademark that ASL tries to eliminate.

SEE sign makes up signs too! What about DIET? (Non-dominant hand closed-5, palm out in front of the mouth, dominant hand D-shape, movement like EAT)

Sorry, but I read blogs, watch Vlogs, and read some threads here on alldeaf, and they make SEE or PSE seem like a bad thing. If it's such a bad thing, then I should stop posting, stop signing altogether, and live in a world of silence and lonliness once more. And honestly, I don't like that idea.
Don't do that! It's just opinion. If it helps someone learn, great! If it hinders language development, try something else.

as a side story: One of my teachers in my IPP (She was born profoundly deaf) first learned SEE. In her school, they would always sign CUT IT OUT to her. She didn't realize until she was 10 that CUT IT OUT in English meant "Stop it." That is where I see the problem. Misunderstandings like that can take years to resolve.

It's obviously not my system of choice, but if that's what's comfy for you, great! You are an adult and can make your language decision for yourself without feeling ashamed or offended.
 

BearBeauty

New Member
I don't want to, but I hear so many opinions that ASL is better than SEE or PSE, And frankly it can make me so mad at times. What happened to accepting others, accepting differences? So one person understands PSE more than ASL, shouldn't we allow that person to use what they understand instead of try to force them to use what will confuse them?

I mean, I've seen a vlog where someone took a bunch of books related to SEE, removed them from the Language section, and put them in Humor? THat's rude and inconsiderate.
 

Sheila

New Member
That's also them making a statement. Yes, it can be viewed as rash, but maybe that particular person had a very bad experience with English growing up.

And I do swing from ASL to PSE pretty normally, depending on the topic and who I'm chatting with. I have never heard anything against PSE... I guess I haven't been paying enough attention. :dunno:
 

ASLGAL

New Member
Glad I checked back in

I have been and am being taught ASL but I know that some of what we are getting is PSE too.
There are many d/D who use a combination of ASL/PSE

I have no clue what SEE/see is except for the fact that while working in a school system the MH teachers were pushing a Signing Exact English book on any other staff member in the place.
Of course my ASL teacher/interpreter held up the cross(you know, like in the movies to ward off vampires :) ) and said "Get Rid Of That!!"


My opinion is that, linguistically the d/D and even hearing students are being taught bastardized forms and then are at a loss to understand any of it when trying to converse properly.
Just one woman's humble opinion.
 

BearBeauty

New Member
Shelia...

I have never heard of that diet sign... Whenever I needed to say diet, i've always fingerspelled it. I can understand that SEE makes up a lot of signs, but what I'm talking about, is the fact people seem to think that SEE uses the first letter of the word in whatever sign, Ie, want being signed with W instead of the 5 handshape, have being signed with the H instead of 5 handshape.

Those kind of things. You see, in SEE, the signs are exactly the same as the ASL signs, and that's what people don't understand. yes, they do add ing, ed, or whatever, but the basic sign is the SAME as the ASL sign. That's my point.
 

Sheila

New Member
Shelia...

I have never heard of that diet sign... Whenever I needed to say diet, i've always fingerspelled it. I can understand that SEE makes up a lot of signs, but what I'm talking about, is the fact people seem to think that SEE uses the first letter of the word in whatever sign, Ie, want being signed with W instead of the 5 handshape, have being signed with the H instead of 5 handshape.

Those kind of things. You see, in SEE, the signs are exactly the same as the ASL signs, and that's what people don't understand. yes, they do add ing, ed, or whatever, but the basic sign is the SAME as the ASL sign. That's my point.
Right. I get that part. It is only initialized when it signing a specific word that shares the same sign with another word. Unnecessary initializing is something people do to poke fun at SEE.

But I thought that in SEE HAS is HAVE signed with S-Hands, HAD signed with D-Hands, and HAVE signed with V-Hands. That is what I learned in our brief SEE class and I believe that's what it has in the Yellow Book.

As for DIET, I always saw it and signed it by fingerspelling. I don't know if that sign was a joke that made itself into a sign, or vice-versa.
 

BearBeauty

New Member
you're right. the various have, had, has do have that sign done. but.. if you look at the video i'm gonna provide a link to... you will notice that the signer used the H handshape to sign have, which is the wrong way to sign it, ASL SEE Or PSE.
Notice the woman in black is using SEE, but she seriously butchers it. And that Is wrong, IMO. This is the "butchering" I don't like.

YouTube - The Rosa Lee Show
 

Sheila

New Member
Her SEE, when she's signing, not going through the list, looks subdued to what I've encountered! Wow. It would make sense that SEE is different around the nation just as any language is. But yea, I can see how offensive this is. It definitely tries to make anyone who uses SEE as stupid.
 
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