ASL student attending Deaf event

[rockdrummer]

Your problem is that you apparently don't appreciate or respect the differences between hearing culture and Deaf culture. You seriously need to get over yourself and just accept that using your voice without signing at a Deaf social gathering is considered rude and disrespectful in that culture.

With all due respect you do not have a clue about what I appreciate, respect or accept. That is apparant based on your knee-jerk response to one of my posts. This is a learning process for me and responses like yours add zero value to that process.

Do you think it would be fair for hearing people to consider it rude if oral deaf use sign language at a hearing event?

 

[Lighthouse77]

With all due respect you do not have a clue about what I appreciate, respect or accept. That is apparant based on your knee-jerk response to one of my posts. This is a learning process for me and responses like yours add zero value to that process.

Do you think it would be fair for hearing people to consider it rude if deaf people use sign language at a hearing event?

It's a hearing event everyday.

and some of us do use spoken language just for the hearing (but it is extremely hard to do around other deaf)

 

[rockdrummer]

It's a hearing event everyday.

and some of us do use spoken language just for the hearing (but it is extremely hard to do around other deaf)

I understand that and I would never consider it rude for deaf folks to use sign language anytime or anywhere even if they had fluent speaking skills. I accept the fact that some deaf do consider it rude for hearing people to use spoken language but that doesn't mean that I understand the reasoning behind it. The only reason I have heard thus far is that the hearing people are making snide remarks about the deaf people when they use spoken language. While that may be true in some circumstances, I seriously doubt that is the case in the context of the OP. Remember this is a person that is taking ASL classes, learning about deaf culture and attending deaf events.

 

[Lighthouse77]

I understand that and I would never consider it rude for deaf folks to use sign language anytime or anywhere even if they had fluent speaking skills. I accept the fact that some deaf do consider it rude for hearing people to use spoken language but that doesn't mean that I understand the reasoning behind it. The only reason I have heard thus far is that the hearing people are making snide remarks about the deaf people when they use spoken language. While that may be true in some circumstances, I seriously doubt that is the case in the context of the OP.

maybe because we would love to join your conversation but can't due to deafness. Spanish speaking people can speak some English and may can even understand what you are saying. You can understand some sign language and even see what they are saying.. but for deaf person, she can't do that no matter how much spoken language she knows (it will always be a one in one conservation when it come to spoken language).

yes, we all have bad experience with people talking about us behind our back, especially when they want talk about deaf like we are children or a case study, talking about how to handle us and such. Ever been to a hospital, and a group of doctors start talking about you in a jargon in front of you and you have no idea what they are talking about? It's easy to get in that discussion when you are in a deaf event.

 

[rockdrummer]

I am speaking with one of my coworkers that happens to be Asian and during the conversation another coworker that is also Asian comes up to us and the two of them start speaking in their native tounge. The person that I am talking with switches between english and Chineese while talking to me and the other cooworker. Should I be offended by this? And if I am offended by that then to be fair I would have to apply that to all situations regarding culture and language. If I am expected to make an exception for any given culture then there does exist a doulbe standard.

I am not saying a double standard is a bad thing. Just call it what it is.

 

[Lighthouse77]

you are at work. not in a Asian event not they are in a English event.

 

[rockdrummer]

you are at work. not in a Asian event not they are in a English event.

Ok.. Assume the same scenereo at an Asian or English event. Should I be offended?

 

[Lighthouse77]

I wouldn't go if I can't speak the language.

When I am at work, I speak spoken English all the time. I hate it though. I hate focusing too much on my speaking.

 

[Mountain Man]

With all due respect you do not have a clue about what I appreciate, respect or accept.

The fact that you're continuing to argue with Deaf people who have repeatedly told you that using your voice without signing at a Deaf event is considered rude makes it crystal clear that you do not accept or respect their position.

Do you think it would be fair for hearing people to consider it rude if oral deaf use sign language at a hearing event?

It's not about being "fair", it's about cultural schema and expectations. Deaf are a minority, and when a member of the majority appears to go out of his way to exclude the Deaf from a conversation, it's a form of oppression.

 

[rockdrummer]

The fact that you're continuing to argue with Deaf people who have repeatedly told you that using your voice without signing at a Deaf event is considered rude makes it crystal clear that you do not accept or respect their position.

Really?

It's ok bott... you have your reasons and I respect you and your opinions and your insight.

It's not about being "fair", it's about cultural schema and expectations. Deaf are a minority, and when a member of the majority appears to go out of his way to exclude the Deaf from a conversation, it's a form of oppression.

I can accept that. Then it is infact a double standard. I have no problem with that. The part I have a hard time accepting is when I am told it's not a double standard when in fact it is. It's a double standard with legitimate reasoning behind it. Just call it what it is. And from my view saying it's a double standard is not a bad thing either.

 

[Mountain Man]

Really?

Yes, really. You say that you respect their position while continuing to argue that it's "unfair" and a "double standard". As they say, actions speak louder than words.

The part I have a hard time accepting is when I am told it's not a double standard when in fact it is.

The term "double standard" carries with it a negative connotation, namely that anybody who holds a double standard is a hypocrite. At best it describes an injustice. Better to acknowledge this issue for what it is: a cultural difference.

 

[faire_jour]

The fact that you're continuing to argue with Deaf people who have repeatedly told you that using your voice without signing at a Deaf event is considered rude makes it crystal clear that you do not accept or respect their position.


It's not about being "fair", it's about cultural schema and expectations. Deaf are a minority, and when a member of the majority appears to go out of his way to exclude the Deaf from a conversation, it's a form of oppression.

He is ASKING, not arguing. He wants an answer, is that so unreasonable? He is the parent of a Deaf child, and he wants to understand the culture.

 

[rockdrummer]

Yes, really. You say that you respect their position while continuing to argue that it's "unfair" and a "double standard". As they say, actions speak louder than words.


The term "double standard" carries with it a negative connotation, namely that anybody who holds a double standard is a hypocrite. At best it describes an injustice. Better to acknowledge this issue for what it is: a cultural difference.

That is your opinion. I don't agree that "double standard" carries negative connotations, or means hypocricy or injustice. To me a double standard is

a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another

But I am willing to agree to disagree on that and will use your term of cultural differences.

I am a hearing father of a profoundly deaf child. I am struggling and continue to learn and try to retain my ASL skills. Part of the problem is that as my son and I are still learning I don't have occasion to use ASL as frequently as I would like. There are not alot of deaf folks around where I live.

Deaf events and socials would be a great place to meet people and use sign language. If I consider what some deaf folks have said here, I should not attend these events for fear of offending others if I use my natural spoken language. Since I am not a fluent signer I would have to fall back on English and spoken language in order to communicate. I'm sorry but I don't think its fair for anyone to feel offended if I have to rely on my voice. And I don't think it's fair for deaf folks at deaf events to not accept me and not let me use my voice when I am not fluent in ASL.

It was wrong for the deaf kids in the old days to have their hands tied behind their backs so they could not communicate in their natural languange. To take that a step further I think it is wrong to deprive anyone of using their natural language to communicate when they need to.

 

[rockdrummer]

He is ASKING, not arguing. He wants an answer, is that so unreasonable? He is the parent of a Deaf child, and he wants to understand the culture.

Thank you!!

 

[faire_jour]

Thank you!!

I hate when people jump down people's throats when all they want is an explanation. It's as though we are supposed to accept it and just say "YES SIR" because they say so. I especially hate it when they attack parents. How is a parent supposed to learn ASL, adn bring Deaf culture into their homes and lives if they are attacked and vilified for everything they do, say and think, INCLUDING their native language.

 

[rockdrummer]

For me I have to build up courage to even approach deaf people because I am afraid of my inablility to communicate. Fortunately the deafies that I have encountered so far have some oral skills and were always alble to read my lips combined with the signs that I do know. It's not an easy thing for me to go to the deaf socials and I have always had the excuse that it's to far. Well now they moved the deaf social to less that 10 miles from my house and I was seriously considering going to them but after all of this I am starting to have my doubts. It feels like I would not belong there unless I am fluent in ASL and can communicate without relying on my voice. I am sorry but that just doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[faire_jour]

For me I have to build up courage to even approach deaf people because I am afraid of my inablility to communicate. Fortunately the deafies that I have encountered so far have some oral skills and were always alble to read my lips combined with the signs that I do know. It's not an easy thing for me to go to the deaf socials and I have always had the excuse that it's to far. Well now they moved the deaf social to less that 10 miles from my house and I was seriously considering going to them but after all of this I am starting to have my doubts. It feels like I would not belong there unless I am fluent in ASL and can communicate without relying on my voice. I am sorry but that just doesn't seem fair to me.

or fair to your child.

They say they want us and our children to feel welcome and a part of the Deaf community, but if they attack you for your native language, how can you feel included?

In real life, I have never had a Deaf person be rude to my husband for speaking to me at a Deaf event. I am able to communicate everything I need to in sign now (and he does ok) but he is far from comfortable. Our Deaf community is happy that he is there and they are very welcoming and helpful. They will voice for him, or fingerspell, or read his lips. They are so happy that he is there, and signing, and that our daughter is a part of the Deaf community, that they help us out as much as they can.

Not the same as here.....

 

[rockdrummer]

Thanks FJ. And despite what Mountian man says I don't believe that the few people that have responded to my posts negativly represent the majority in the deaf community. At least I hope they don't. I do respect their opinions and positions but it doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

 

[Frisky Feline]

Yes, really. You say that you respect their position while continuing to argue that it's "unfair" and a "double standard". As they say, actions speak louder than words.


The term "double standard" carries with it a negative connotation, namely that anybody who holds a double standard is a hypocrite. At best it describes an injustice. Better to acknowledge this issue for what it is: a cultural difference.

Just go easy on your comments toward to whoever's posts you disagree with. They are here to understand better about the deaf culture because they don't raise in the deaf culture but they have someone who are deaf who are close to them.

 

[Silentwolfdog]

I know that foreign spoken language is okay with hearing people because it is still accessible to them whether they understand it or not. Deaf people do not have that luxury.

My question now is... if foreign sign language was used at deaf event, is it okay? I hope it is! Because everyone who have set of eyes will have 100% access to it, whether they understand it or not where spoken language is not.

Anyhow I think it is plainly clear that hearing norms or rules do not apply when it comes to deaf culture because it is two very different cultures. I do not think it's double standard, it's just cultural difference. Deaf people do not have access to spoken language so why would they make events where voice is allowed? Then what's the point of deaf event/social if deaf people arrive to scene where they do not have 100% access? ( I see term 'social' and 'event' as same thing). That would just make me scratch my head also kinda make me not wanting to attend such event because I live through it everyday in hearing world already.