Agbell Propaganda Piece In New York Times Blog Article

[hoichi]

this is a fairly straight forward propaganda piece for the agbell and its ilk. in the new York times blog, an article no less..written by a woman that has a blog called foggymommy..indeed not the sharpest knife in the drawer..

well

i grant the critical thinking displayed in this piece is rather foggy, as a matter of fact its so thick with nonsense that its unjust to even use fog here to try to explain it. as i search for the proper english term....


thick as shit

captures this article better then any english term or words i can use..further
its also better in sign..

this article is NOT from 1880....folks

this is today...

so much is wrong with this trash piece its hard to be fair...but ill try..i really will. because fog is my favorite weather, and the mommy who wrote this needs to be schooled...

its written by a mother of a two year old who's hearing "loss" was just diagnosed..

bolded emphasis mine to help you swim through it...and your going to stink
...........................

'It started when The Washington Post ran a story on Nyle DiMarco, the deaf “Dancing With the Stars” contestant who is also an advocate for American Sign Language (ASL). When Meredith Sugar, president of the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing, retorted that ASL was becoming obsolete in light of better hearing aid and cochlear implant technology,"

perhaps the words you looking for are "in light of better assimilation practices and strategies to break the back of Deaf culture"


it gets ever worse with such jewels as....

'One friend, a speech therapist whose brother is deaf, told me not to sign at all with Sam because he would use it as a crutch instead of learning to speak. This made sense to me',

how does denying a child language acquisition make sense again?

is this mother unaware that human beings have the capacity to be bilingual? even multilingual without the acquisition of another language impeding the retention of any other....

guess this one doesn't..

but threes more...
so much more....
it actually hurts....

"Although his speech did improve, the frustration I continued to see in his face when he tried to tell me something was heartbreaking. Tantrums were frequent. Sam started coming up with his own signs, "

yet this mother cant take a hint....you should be ashamed of yourself woman!!
(shakes head)


even more absurd.....

"

Although some children are taught to be bilingual in ASL and English, ASL is not designed to represent English directly. "

no language other then english is designed to represent english directly. yet millions of children millions all over the world acquire more then one language as a child and use both...has this mother as an example, ever stepped foot on continental Europe by chance? (guess she hasnt),

its not a secret

then we have even more jewels of a dull mind with this

'The benefit of learning signed English, Sam’s therapist said, is that he could sign and speak at the same time. Plus, when it comes time to learn to read, it’s not as much of an adjustment.

why?
why not ASL?

and this

“Learning ASL and then learning to read English is very tough,” she said. “It would be like learning Chinese.”

learning one language, then learning to read another is always tough....the closer the language is to ones other one the easier it is. granted

as for leaning Chinese a billion or so children have done just that at some point so what gives?

but in this she does unknowingly have a point. we need our children to learn to read in ASL and sign in asl, not learn to read only in english and sign ASL. we need our script for our language for our own literature., and we have made moves to do just that..


but her nonsense only escalates......take this classic example of manipulation.

sign is now a tool, then stats for how many hearies there is, then the old swtcheroo, rather then the children being the victims of a demented policy of language deprivation and forced assimilation its the very parents who enable and do this that are now some how the victims...

"I’ve come to think of signing as a tool for Sam to learn English. The majority of the world is hearing. Only two to three children out of 1,000 are born with hearing loss, and more than 90 percent of them to hearing parents. Those who say not teaching ASL to hard-of-hearing children is language deprivation only vilify parents who are trying to find a bridge between the hearing and deaf worlds."

we dont vilify you..
you very own behavior vilifies you more then enough....
the bridge your looking for isnt the drill or assimilation its
SIGN

curious how big that agbell cheque cut to you is?
care to share?

then this...

"Many Deaf people feel well-meaning parents are pushed by doctors, audiologists and groups like AG Bell to try to make their children fit in with the hearing world through technology."

this mother is literally clueless..this is the very reason she state for not teaching him sign and instead forcing him to to speak even witnessing what that demented policy does to him?

and

"But as Sam’s audiologist said to me, “Lots of people have glasses, so why should hearing aids be thought of any differently?”

yes your IQ has just dropped from reading that...do so again at your own peril


and heavens forbid even more...

"Sam’s doctor told me that some in the Deaf community would think it’s “child abuse” for her to perform cochlear implant surgery, the next step in technology if over-the-ear aids aren’t effective.

notice the language used here...

“They’d have me thrown in jail,” she said. This anti-technology attitude means that many parents who choose aids or implants wonder where their kids fit in. They’re not quite hearing, not quite deaf, and maybe not even Deaf"

the fear mongering is blinding....lucky i have some of those glasses your therapist spoke fondly off..

the above "not quit hearing not quit deaf and maybe not even deaf" is due to people like you who refuse to accept Deaf as Deaf...

the onus her is on you people to stop the drilling. stop the assimilation

we are not anti technology. we are anti assimilation.


more down her shit hole...

again pay close attention to the language used..

"As in politics, extremists on either side have created an environment that makes it hard for those in the middle to feel comfortable discussing the issues.

first this women needs to be aware she not in the middle. this is an attempt a rather clumsy one at that to paint herself and her position as the middle ground. when in reality its the extreme position. second and obviously related the agbell are the extremest. denying ASL language acquisition is a very extreme position. deny language acquisition to children is an extreme position.

(takes off glasses, cleans them of shit....)

moving on...

"I’m making decisions for my son,"

oh im sure he will remember it all, mark my signs

"but I don’t know whether he will agree with them when he’s older. But what would help parents the most is a community that could talk openly to work through the options without judgment or dogma. "

we dont want you in our community...
you don't want to be a part of our community...

as for dogma care to explain to us how denying your son his right to learn ASL is a positive for your son again?

pls leave your dogma and your filth in the toilet where they belong

your son when he gets older will already have had years of your bullshit, to try to get through. years of being denied his natural right, because people like YOU cant and wont accept him for what he is.

one day your son will learn in spite of you
that he is not broken. that he is not sick. that he not in need of repair, he is not damaged goods..he is not a born liability!!!

the quicker you as a mother get that,
the better your sons life will be..
and p.s.

how big was that cheuqe again?


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/...dren-stuck-in-the-middle-of-an-argument/?_r=1

 

[seb]

this is a fairly straight forward propaganda piece for the agbell and its ilk. in the new York times blog, an article no less..written by a woman that has a blog called foggymommy..indeed not the sharpest knife in the drawer..

well

i grant the critical thinking displayed in this piece is rather foggy, as a matter of fact its so thick with nonsense that its unjust to even use fog here to try to explain it. as i search for the proper english term....


thick as shit

captures this article better then any english term or words i can use..further
its also better in sign..

this article is NOT from 1880....folks

this is today...

so much is wrong with this trash piece its hard to be fair...but ill try..i really will. because fog is my favorite weather, and the mommy who wrote this needs to be schooled...

its written by a mother of a two year old who's hearing "loss" was just diagnosed..

bolded emphasis mine to help you swim through it...and your going to stink
...........................



perhaps the words you looking for are "in light of better assimilation practices and strategies to break the back of Deaf culture"


it gets ever worse with such jewels as....



how does denying a child language acquisition make sense again?

is this mother unaware that human beings have the capacity to be bilingual? even multilingual without the acquisition of another language impeding the retention of any other....

guess this one doesn't..

but threes more...
so much more....
it actually hurts....



yet this mother cant take a hint....you should be ashamed of yourself woman!!
(shakes head)


even more absurd.....

"

no language other then english is designed to represent english directly. yet millions of children millions all over the world acquire more then one language as a child and use both...has this mother as an example, ever stepped foot on continental Europe by chance? (guess she hasnt),

its not a secret

then we have even more jewels of a dull mind with this



why?
why not ASL?

and this



learning one language, then learning to read another is always tough....the closer the language is to ones other one the easier it is. granted

as for leaning Chinese a billion or so children have done just that at some point so what gives?

but in this she does unknowingly have a point. we need our children to learn to read in ASL and sign in asl, not learn to read only in english and sign ASL. we need our script for our language for our own literature., and we have made moves to do just that..


but her nonsense only escalates......take this classic example of manipulation.

sign is now a tool, then stats for how many hearies there is, then the old swtcheroo, rather then the children being the victims of a demented policy of language deprivation and forced assimilation its the very parents who enable and do this that are now some how the victims...




we dont vilify you..
you very own behavior vilifies you more then enough....
the bridge your looking for isnt the drill or assimilation its
SIGN

curious how big that agbell cheque cut to you is?
care to share?

then this...




this mother is literally clueless..this is the very reason she state for not teaching him sign and instead forcing him to to speak even witnessing what that demented policy does to him?

and




yes your IQ has just dropped from reading that...do so again at your own peril


and heavens forbid even more...



notice the language used here...



the fear mongering is blinding....lucky i have some of those glasses your therapist spoke fondly off..

the above "not quit hearing not quit deaf and maybe not even deaf" is due to people like you who refuse to accept Deaf as Deaf...

the onus her is on you people to stop the drilling. stop the assimilation

we are not anti technology. we are anti assimilation.


more down her shit hole...

again pay close attention to the language used..



first this women needs to be aware she not in the middle. this is an attempt a rather clumsy one at that to paint herself and her position as the middle ground. when in reality its the extreme position. second and obviously related the agbell are the extremest. denying ASL language acquisition is a very extreme position. deny language acquisition to children is an extreme position.

(takes off glasses, cleans them of shit....)

moving on...



oh im sure he will remember it all, mark my signs



we dont want you in our community...
you don't want to be a part of our community...

as for dogma care to explain to us how denying your son his right to learn ASL is a positive for your son again?

pls leave your dogma and your filth in the toilet where they belong

your son when he gets older will already have had years of your bullshit, to try to get through. years of being denied his natural right, because people like YOU cant and wont accept him for what he is.

one day your son will learn in spite of you
that he is not broken. that he is not sick. that he not in need of repair, he is not damaged goods..he is not a born liability!!!

the quicker you as a mother get that,
the better your sons life will be..
and p.s.

how big was that cheuqe again?


http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/...dren-stuck-in-the-middle-of-an-argument/?_r=1

So why is it that people in the deaf community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada? What is the deaf community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

 

[hoichi]

So why is it that people in the deaf community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada? What is the deaf community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

why do you think?
if your going to ask the question also offer your thoughts on it..

im also curious how you seem to know its the deafs fault they are unemployed..
care to explain...

which group in the u.s. has the highest unemployment rate?

i have a question for you
how is ASL language deprivation helping the Deaf get out of unemployment and poverty?

 

[dogmom]

audism...privilege...who has the power.....all connected

 

[rockin'robin]

Interesting article. As to how I feel...I think children should learn ASL in order to communicate their feelings and be able to talk to others, and the Parents should learn it too. Some parents say "it's to hard (ASL)"...not thinking of their child, who has not heard any sounds, and expect them to accommodate the hearing world....then for the child to be made fun of and shunned....Having lost my hearing (total loss) at age 14...I went thru a lot myself. And going to a deaf school, I was not allowed to sign in class...in order to keep my speech intact. My own family were "embarrassed" by ASL...and didn't want me to sign...saying "just act normal."
My heart does ache for these kids being pushed into speech classes and expecting them to "speak" normally when they've never heard a sound before....
Only a few friends in my younger years understood it all...but 1 comment made about me really got me angry. A friend introduced me to a stranger...and he said..."oh, she is deaf and dumb?"...My friend said, "she's deaf but not dumb...she's educated"....LOL

 

[seb]

why do you think?
if your going to ask the question also offer your thoughts on it..

im also curious how you seem to know its the deafs fault they are unemployed..
care to explain...

which group in the u.s. has the highest unemployment rate?

i have a question for you
how is ASL language deprivation helping the Deaf get out of unemployment and poverty?

Your famous for making these outlandish statements and then when someone posts a question to you, you backpedal and have no answer. I will tell you what, answer my question I directed at you and I will answer the questions you have directed at me. You have said you want dialog, yet you never want to take part in it.

 

[hoichi]

Your famous for making these outlandish statements and then when someone posts a question to you, you backpedal and have no answer. I will tell you what, answer my question I directed at you and I will answer the questions you have directed at me. You have said you want dialog, yet you never want to take part in it.

where have i backpedeled?
which of my statements are outlandish?

i have all kinds of answers for you, but if you think this will be you giving me a one way lecture your sadly mistaken.
so
if you would like to have a discussion, thats great.
if not
cool

you asked me this

So why is it that people in the deaf community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada?

the tone of your question is accusatory. why is it? why not just ask why? your bias betrays you from your first statements.


that's not just Deaf in a Deaf community. that's Deaf. period.
i think a large part of the why your looking for is education. the failure in Deaf education, and who is directly responsivle for Deaf education?
do you know?

What is the deaf community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

another accusatory question.

i disagree with you in the idea its the minorities fault they are at a disadvantage, (be that minority black, native, or Deaf),,
and i also believe strongly that the answers you seek wont be found in a sound bite...

in regards to what us Deaf are doing wrong...i i also disagree with you in believing we made such a large portion of ourselves largely unemployable.

i disagree with your bigoted tone and your patronizing stance..

i posted an article that has some very serious issues..and all your 'sharp' (snicker), mind can do is come back with these lame couple of questions..?

alright at least you come by it honestly...
i give you that

 

[Jezie]

Seb... Add something... Anything... Other than random attacks and trolling...

Your famous for making these outlandish statements and then when someone posts a question to you, you backpedal and have no answer. I will tell you what, answer my question I directed at you and I will answer the questions you have directed at me. You have said you want dialog, yet you never want to take part in it.

 

[deafdyke]

So why is it that people in the deaf community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada? What is the deaf community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

You're assuming that the deaf community is entirely made up of voice off Deafies who all attended Deaf School K-12. Nope. We come from ALL sorts of backgrounds. You do realize that even if a dhh kid is mainstreamed, it's not a guarentee they will get access to an excellent education. Heck even hearing schools aren't always the best. Not everyone has access to high quality suburban schools with all the resources. There's a lot of different reasons why the unemployment levels are high, but attendance at deaf schools/programs and ASL is NOT a scapegoat. Have you ever talked to a TOD or talked with a social worker that is experianced with the dhh population? The stories they can tell.....and all of them are about people who fell through the cracks!

 

[seb]

where have i backpedeled?
which of my statements are outlandish?
Your post about the article is full of the world according to hoichi! Your way is the best and everyone who is deaf should follow your lead.

Sorry, but to me that is how you come across as someone who is entrenched in the deaf community and feel that it is the only way for people who are deaf to live and this woman is doing her son a huge disservice by not teaching him ASL and entrenching him in the deaf community.

i have all kinds of answers for you, but if you think this will be you giving me a one way lecture your sadly mistaken.
so
if you would like to have a discussion, thats great.
if not
cool

you asked me this

- Yes, I did because I really want to know why you feel the deaf are largely unemployed, but you refuse to answer and if you did I am pretty sure I know how you would respond.

the tone of your question is accusatory. why is it? why not just ask why? your bias betrays you from your first statements.

- I thought I did ask you, my question I thought was very clear. I want to know what you feel is the reason behind so many deaf people being largely unemployed.



i disagree with you in the idea its the minorities fault they are at a disadvantage, (be that minority black, native, or Deaf),,
and i also believe strongly that the answers you seek wont be found in a sound bite...

- It isn't the minorities fault that they are at a disadvantage and it never is. It is basically the parents of the child as well as the school they attend. As a former teacher, I saw way to often too many parents expecting the school to basically raise their child and teach them everything including right from wrong, good manners, how to behave and even how to eat (and I'm not kidding!). Parents are their child's first teacher and should continue to play a huge part in their children's education after they enter school and it should be a combined effort between the parents and their child's teachers. Since 90% of all deaf children come from hearing parents, they are doing their children a huge disservice if they don't teach their children to move between both the hearing as well as the deaf worlds.

in regards to what us Deaf are doing wrong...i i also disagree with you in believing we made such a large portion of ourselves largely unemployable.

-You didn't make yourself unemployable, the way you were educated did.

i disagree with your bigoted tone and your patronizing stance..

-I'm sorry if I come across that way.


i posted an article that has some very serious issues..and all your 'sharp' (snicker), mind can do is come back with these lame couple of questions..?

alright at least you come by it honestly...
i give you that

I read the article and I didn't come away seeing the issues as being as serious as you did and definitely didn't see it as propaganda. What I saw was a mother who was conflicted with the choices she was being asked to make in order to educate her son and didn't know which way to go, but came to the conclusion that since people who are deaf live in a largely hearing world she would teach her son to converse in spoken English so he could survive in the hearing world. Her last paragraph says it all: [Instead of a united front advocating for deaf and hard-of-hearing children, I’ve found a community struggling with internal conflict. As in politics, extremists on either side have created an environment that makes it hard for those in the middle to feel comfortable discussing the issues. I’m making decisions for my son, but I don’t know whether he will agree with them when he’s older. But what would help parents the most is a community that could talk openly to work through the options without judgment or dogma. What would best benefit my son — and me, in making choices for him — is better support for whichever decision we make.] You are definitely in the extremists category and I'm not surprised you have found the article offensive.

Well since you really haven't answered either of the questions, I will give you my take on the two questions and actually give you an answer that I feel is behind a good deal of the deaf unemployed. As a former teacher and one who's kids went to an elementary school that shared the site with the county's deaf school that taught the kids both in signed English as well as ASL and then mainstreamed the deaf kids in the regular elementary school for half the day, so they could interact in both worlds. The school left the kids with an education that allowed them to move between both worlds and also taught them to speak as well as write as is found in the hearing world in the U.S and Canada and gave them the tools they needed to get a job. They also didn't talk as the deaf community that relies on ASL sign language does: they didn't say " Your Mom, I met yesterday,' instead they would say it as it would be said in the hearing world I met your Mom yesterday! It seems trivial, but in a hearing world job you have to be able to converse with other hearing people and you have to speak as the hearing world does. If you don't the people who are used to hearing spoken language will tire of trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to understand what the deaf person is trying to convey, so it will severely hamper there prospects of advancing in any job they take and they will be stuck in entry level positions or find themselves unemployed.

A good friend of mine had a son who was born with a severe hearing loss and when it came time to put him in school he and his wife were being pushed to enroll their son in the deaf school. When they toured the school they were not impressed with how the kids were being taught and asked what percentage of the kids left the school and were able to earn a decent living? They were told that their son had limitations because of his hearing and they would do the best they could to educate their son. They left knowing that they would do whatever was needed and that included home schooling if they had to instead of putting their child in a school that was going to limit his prospects and leave him tied to a specific community. Their son ended up being mainstreamed, went on to college and today holds a very well paying job. He has both hearing as well as deaf friends and unless you knew it, you wouldn't know he was deaf.

 

[seb]

You're assuming that the deaf community is entirely made up of voice off Deafies who all attended Deaf School K-12. Nope. We come from ALL sorts of backgrounds. You do realize that even if a dhh kid is mainstreamed, it's not a guarentee they will get access to an excellent education. Heck even hearing schools aren't always the best. Not everyone has access to high quality suburban schools with all the resources. There's a lot of different reasons why the unemployment levels are high, but attendance at deaf schools/programs and ASL is NOT a scapegoat. Have you ever talked to a TOD or talked with a social worker that is experianced with the dhh population? The stories they can tell.....and all of them are about people who fell through the cracks!

I have assumed no such thing. You're the one who is making the assumption. A mainstreamed education won't guarantee anyone an excellent education, but it will help give that person a better chance of seeking and holding onto a job that earns them a living. In CA, the graduation rate of all students is actually around 78% so a lot of kids end up leaving school without a diploma or as you say "falling through the cracks" but their unemployment rate is much lower than that found in the deaf community. In 2015, the unemployment rate for HS dropouts was almost 20%, but for people who are deaf it was almost 50% and only the blind have a higher unemployment rate at 74%. Yes, I have talked to a teacher of the deaf(several actually) and why do you think they have fallen through the cracks?

 

[hoichi]

i answered your question. i would like for you to answer mine
thank you

I read the article and I didn't come away seeing the issues as being as serious as you did and definitely didn't see it as propaganda.

do you sign?

What I saw was a mother who was conflicted with the choices she was being asked to make in order to educate her son and didn't know which way to go,

look and pay attention to the language the mother uses. words matter. her language is loaded with pre conceived ideas that are heavily dependent on an auricular dominance in her discourse. i understand clearly the women isnt very bright and thus she prob isnt even aware that shes trapped in a certain framework that impedes her ability use critical thinking.

it makes sense for her, to deny ASL to her son, even though she also admits her son has tantrums, is having a hard time communicating in a language he has trouble perceiving, yet...the language he can perceive ASL is denied him...

this makes sense to her...

but came to the conclusion that since people who are deaf live in a largely hearing world she would teach her son to converse in spoken English so he could survive in the hearing world. .

even though she herself sees what negative ramifications that forcing is having on her sons emotional well being, and his life...even though she admits he prefers to use sign, he even invents signs to communicate, again that hint is lost on her...and its probably have the kid sit on his hands and force him do do the TH sound ad nasueum....repeatedly every day until he gets the THe TH tH tH tH just right....for the hearies....Th Th TH just just so neat and right......meanwhile the window for fluent language acquisition is closing......along with a future...but thats ok as long as her son can TH TH TH....just right...


how does forcing a person who cannot perceive your language to learn it, and denial of the language the person can perceive. sign translate to making sense?

could we further that project to as, an example the blind. can we force them via methods to paint images to the visual standard acceptable? (with allot of force and punishment, and coercion i grant anything is truly possible with the whip...)

even though we both know how silly and rather twisted such an ideal is, and how dangerous for the individual being forced into such nonsense will be

Her last paragraph says it all: [Instead of a united front advocating for deaf and hard-of-hearing children, I’ve found a community struggling with internal conflict. As in politics, extremists on either side have created an environment that makes it hard for those in the middle to feel comfortable discussing the issues. I’m making decisions for my son, but I don’t know whether he will agree with them when he’s older. But what would help parents the most is a community that could talk openly to work through the options without judgment or dogma. What would best benefit my son — and me, in making choices for him — is better support for whichever decision we make.] You are definitely in the extremists category and I'm not surprised you have found the article offensive.

its hardly an extremist position to want a child to acquire a sign language...i dont expect much from you here, but ill ask anyway.

how is wishing for a Deaf child to acquire a sign language an extreme position? how is wishing for any child hearie or Deaf to acquire a sign language an extremest position? how is wishing for any child to acquire any language more then one, an extreme position?

ill go out on a limb here and for the sake of this discussion assume you do believe Deaf are human? (correct me if i'm wrong), and we know that human beings are innately endowed with the capability to acquire and use language, more then one, at the same time even, we know this...it happens every day, all over the world, every single day...

so if Deaf are human, Deaf can also acquire language, and languages...
what is so extreme about this?
is it not more extreme to deny language acquisition to a human bieng?

considering by her admission her child naturally creates signs...
how is this position extreme?

her last paragraph betrays she knows very little about the community she is droning about..
why would we have a united front with the very people who DENY our language to Deaf children?

Well since you really haven't answered either of the questions,

i answered your question. i disagree with your fundamental ideas...you may not accept my answer but ive answered. i even stated the education system, ironically enough that seems to be what you think too judging by what follows..

im sure if you'd ask a native or black guy why his people haven't done squat to help themselves out of poverty and the joint you prob would get the same answer...

So why is it that people in black community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada? What is the black community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

or

So why is it that people in native community have a 50% unemployment rate in the United States and over 40% in Canada? What is the native community doing that is wrong that is making such a large portion of their population largely un employable?

can you see issues here in your line of questioning re your tone and bigotry?

go on ask one see how it goes..
you may learn something...

I will give you my take on the two questions and actually give you an answer that I feel is behind a good deal of the deaf unemployed.
As a former teacher and one who's kids went to an elementary school that shared the site with the county's deaf school that taught the kids both in signed English as well as ASL and then mainstreamed the deaf kids in the regular elementary school for half the day, so they could interact in both worlds.

how successful is that communication? under what measure? but i keep asking why not ASL? note ere, i have never claimed to NOT teach English to Deaf children...im asking why not ASL?

im opposed to English only oralism...which is the extreme position. by any measure.

those who DENY asl acquisition to children are the extreme position.
children who are Deaf naturally will sign, as this very mother witnessed..
are you claiming every Deaf child is an extremest?

The school left the kids with an education that allowed them to move between both worlds and also taught them to speak as well as write as is found in the hearing world in the U.S and Canada and gave them the tools they needed to get a job. They also didn't talk as the deaf community that relies on ASL sign language does: they didn't say " Your Mom, I met yesterday,' instead they would say it as it would be said in the hearing world I met your Mom yesterday! It seems trivial, but in a hearing world job you have to be able to converse with other hearing people and you have to speak as the hearing world does. If you don't the people who are used to hearing spoken language will tire of trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to understand what the deaf person is trying to convey, so it will severely hamper there prospects of advancing in any job they take and they will be stuck in entry level positions or find themselves unemployed.

who controls and operates Deaf schools? sets their policies in education their standards? hires teachers? is the administration? pays the piper picks the tune?

A good friend of mine had a son who was born with a severe hearing loss and when it came time to put him in school he and his wife were being pushed to enroll their son in the deaf school. When they toured the school they were not impressed with how the kids were being taught and asked what percentage of the kids left the school and were able to earn a decent living? They were told that their son had limitations because of his hearing and they would do the best they could to educate their son. They left knowing that they would do whatever was needed and that included home schooling if they had to instead of putting their child in a school that was going to limit his prospects and leave him tied to a specific community. Their son ended up being mainstreamed, went on to college and today holds a very well paying job. He has both hearing as well as deaf friends and unless you knew it, you wouldn't know he was deaf.

sure but your example of a very well paying job due to mainstreaming is not the norm..
its th every exception..

i can use the line for me. after all all agree im rather exceptional...

this is what your doing with your rationalizations.
look close

i went to jail, i went to prison,,now i have a well paying job...thus all those who go to jail and prison will have well payign jobs...

the above is all true..in the first sense, the second is what you are doing re mainstream.

the plm is
well take a look closer...

its easy to correlate anything to anything to suit a certain framework and agenda..(your very good at that though sloppy)..
but it doesn't serve any purpose other then to tun in circles..

im going to ask you again because ive asked a number of questions and we both know judging by your post history re discussions the likelihood of you answering any is rather low..

but ill give it another shot

how does Denying a child ASL language acquisition do that child any favours?
how does Denying a child ASL language acquisition help that child?

 

[hoichi]

further..

Well since you really haven't answered either of the questions,

i answered your question. i disagree with your fundamental ideas...you may not accept my answer but ive answered.
i even stated the education system, ironically enough that seems to be what you think too judging by what follows..

but its even more then that...
frankly it comes down to audism. deep audism to the bone ingrained in hearie society.

discrimination against Deaf, even with an education...its so rampant in hearie society hearies don't even know it most the time...ive been mocked for being the Deaf guy who , heavens forbid can drive (gasp ...how is that possible, you need to be able to speak to drive...and i have more a golden tongue then most hearies...go figure..)to being the Deaf guy who can fight...(we can do that too)...there are very very few things Deaf cannot do..

so we know its not due to being Deaf something innate as example like language..we know Deaf can do just about anything any hearie can......

(pls correct me if im wrong)

 

[Bottesini]

AGBell's mission is very pervasive, and they work hard to get it out there.

That's evident from the blogging of the mother of the mildly hard of hearing child.

Nile DeMarco's public success has made a wave against the oral only philosophy and AGBell doesn't like that one bit.

Hence the infighting and almost war that has come about since.

 

[Jane B.]

I am so impressed with this post from seb; especially the part I have added the bold to as that was my reaction to this mother! I also want to bring up what he quotes from the end of the article about it being hard to get information from either side without the extremists obscuring their information in their judgment or dogma.

I read the article and I didn't come away seeing the issues as being as serious as you did and definitely didn't see it as propaganda. What I saw was a mother who was conflicted with the choices she was being asked to make in order to educate her son and didn't know which way to go, but came to the conclusion that since people who are deaf live in a largely hearing world she would teach her son to converse in spoken English so he could survive in the hearing world. Her last paragraph says it all: [Instead of a united front advocating for deaf and hard-of-hearing children, I’ve found a community struggling with internal conflict. As in politics, extremists on either side have created an environment that makes it hard for those in the middle to feel comfortable discussing the issues. I’m making decisions for my son, but I don’t know whether he will agree with them when he’s older. But what would help parents the most is a community that could talk openly to work through the options without judgment or dogma. What would best benefit my son — and me, in making choices for him — is better support for whichever decision we make.] You are definitely in the extremists category and I'm not surprised you have found the article offensive.

Well since you really haven't answered either of the questions, I will give you my take on the two questions and actually give you an answer that I feel is behind a good deal of the deaf unemployed. As a former teacher and one who's kids went to an elementary school that shared the site with the county's deaf school that taught the kids both in signed English as well as ASL and then mainstreamed the deaf kids in the regular elementary school for half the day, so they could interact in both worlds. The school left the kids with an education that allowed them to move between both worlds and also taught them to speak as well as write as is found in the hearing world in the U.S and Canada and gave them the tools they needed to get a job. They also didn't talk as the deaf community that relies on ASL sign language does: they didn't say " Your Mom, I met yesterday,' instead they would say it as it would be said in the hearing world I met your Mom yesterday! It seems trivial, but in a hearing world job you have to be able to converse with other hearing people and you have to speak as the hearing world does. If you don't the people who are used to hearing spoken language will tire of trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to understand what the deaf person is trying to convey, so it will severely hamper there prospects of advancing in any job they take and they will be stuck in entry level positions or find themselves unemployed.

A good friend of mine had a son who was born with a severe hearing loss and when it came time to put him in school he and his wife were being pushed to enroll their son in the deaf school. When they toured the school they were not impressed with how the kids were being taught and asked what percentage of the kids left the school and were able to earn a decent living? They were told that their son had limitations because of his hearing and they would do the best they could to educate their son. They left knowing that they would do whatever was needed and that included home schooling if they had to instead of putting their child in a school that was going to limit his prospects and leave him tied to a specific community. Their son ended up being mainstreamed, went on to college and today holds a very well paying job. He has both hearing as well as deaf friends and unless you knew it, you wouldn't know he was deaf.

 

[seb]

i answered your question. i would like for you to answer mine
thank you




do you sign?


-No


look and pay attention to the language the mother uses. words matter. her language is loaded with pre conceived ideas that are heavily dependent on an auricular dominance in her discourse. i understand clearly the women isnt very bright and thus she prob isnt even aware that shes trapped in a certain framework that impedes her ability use critical thinking.

it makes sense for her, to deny ASL to her son, even though she also admits her son has tantrums, is having a hard time communicating in a language he has trouble perceiving, yet...the language he can perceive ASL is denied him...

- Do you have children? News for you all 2 year olds have tantrums. He also only has a mild hearing loss in one ear, so he can hear and since he is only two years old his language is limited. Most two year olds language ability is limited to a vocabulary of only about fifty words, he can understand most of what your say to him, but has trouble verbalizing what he wants.

this makes sense to her...


-Only in your eyes since they are already closed to change. What is wrong with signing exact English?


even though she herself sees what negative ramifications that forcing is having on her sons emotional well being, and his life...even though she admits he prefers to use sign, he even invents signs to communicate, again that hint is lost on her...and its probably have the kid sit on his hands and force him do do the TH sound ad nasueum....repeatedly every day until he gets the THe TH tH tH tH just right....for the hearies....Th Th TH just just so neat and right......meanwhile the window for fluent language acquisition is closing......along with a future...but thats ok as long as her son can TH TH TH....just right...

-I've got news for you, both of my children were born hearing and at 2 years old they made signs and pointed to things that they wanted, this isn't limited to a child with a mild to severe hearing loss or who is deaf.


how does forcing a person who cannot perceive your language translate to making sense?

- Once again: the child is not deaf, he has a mild hearing loss in one ear and a severe loss in the other. Did you miss this part of the article?


could we further that project to as, an example the blind. can we force them via methods to paint images to the visual standard acceptable? (with allot of force and punishment, and coercion i grant anything is truly possible with the whip...)

even though we both know how silly and rather twisted such an ideal is, and how dangerous for the individual being forced into such nonsense will be

- Once again your analogy is ridiculous since the child has a mild hearing loss in one ear and a severe loss in the other. Someone who is blind at best has 20/200 vision with correction in the best eye, so to translate it to being deaf you would have someone with a profound hearing loss in both ears with HA's.




its hardly an extremist position to want a child to acquire a sign language...i dont expect much from you here, but ill ask anyway.

how is wishing for a Deaf child to acquire a sign language an extreme position? how is wishing for any child hearie or Deaf to acquire a sign language an extremest position? how is wishing for any child to acquire any language more then one, an extreme position?

ill go out on a limb here and for the sake of this discussion assume you do believe Deaf are human? (correct me if i'm wrong), and we know that human beings are innately endowed with the capability to acquire and use language, more then one, at the same time even, we know this...it happens every day, all over the world, every single day...

so if Deaf are human, Deaf can also acquire language, and languages...
what is so extreme about this?
is it not more extreme to deny language acquisition to a human bieng?

- Once again the child IS NOT DEAF! He has a mild hearing loss in one ear and a severe loss in the other.

considering by her admission her child naturally creates signs...
how is this position extreme?

-All two year olds use signs or point to what they want.


her last paragraph betrays she knows very little about the community she is droning about..
why would we have a united front with the very people who DENY our language to Deaf children?

-This statement shows you are firmly entrenched in the signing community and have had very little exposure to the hearing world and seem to prefer it that way. In your community how many people with mild hearing loss use ASL if they don't have a family member or family members who is or are deaf?




i answered your question. i disagree with your fundamental ideas...you may not accept my answer but ive answered. i even stated the education system, ironically enough that seems to be what you think too judging by what follows..

im sure if you'd ask a native or black guy why his people haven't done squat to help themselves out of poverty and the joint you prob would get the same answer...

-It all boils down to education and the willingness to change.

or



can you see issues here in your line of questioning re your tone and bigotry?

go on ask one see how it goes..
you may learn something...

-I have news for you, my tone is not one of bigotry, Ask one of who? Native Americans, Black people, Hispanics, deaf people, who exactly am I supposed to ask? I have friends who are Hispanic, Black and my Brother in Law is one half native American. I have had talks with all of them about the issues you have raised and all their answered have come down to education and parents who care about their education. One Black friend grew up in the deep South in the 1940''s and 50''s in a family where his father could not read or write, but his dad insisted his son and daughter go to parochial school and do the best they could because he knew it would make their life easier than his was. The both went on to college and had very successful lives. His wife also had parents who pushed her in school and she too graduated from college and became an RN. Another Black friend also grew up in the South in the 50's and had parents who insisted on getting an education and he graduated from college, went into teaching, got his masters and then his phD and ended his career in education as a high school principle. A hispanic friend grew up with parents who were migrants and also insisted that he and is siblings get an education so they wouldn't have to lead the life they had to lead. Henry graduated from HS, went on to college, became an art teacher and got his masters and also ended his career in education as a HS principal. My Brother in Law has told me he was stupid for not taking his education seriously and is embarrassed with the fact that his reading and math skills are very poor. Do you see a common thread here?

To be continued: used to many characters.

 

[seb]

Continuation of post to hoichi.

how successful is that communication? under what measure? but i keep asking why not ASL? note ere, i have never claimed to NOT teach English to Deaf children...im asking why not ASL?

-I have no problem teaching a child ASL, but to rely solely on it only limits his/hers potential.

im opposed to English only oralism...which is the extreme position. by any measure.

- Since the child is only mildly deaf in one ear and has a severe loss in the other and is helped with HA's. It will be several years before the educational assessments take place and at that time it will be determined if he can be mainstreamed or should attend a deaf school, so their is time for the mother to change course.

those who DENY asl acquisition to children are the extreme position.
children who are Deaf naturally will sign, as this very mother witnessed..
are you claiming every Deaf child is an extremest?

-As I said earlier, All two year olds will sign naturally. It makes no difference whether they are deaf or hearing.



who controls and operates Deaf schools? sets their policies in education their standards? hires teachers? is the administration? pays the piper picks the tune?

-Where I live it is the County Board of Education.




sure but your example of a very well paying job due to mainstreaming is not the norm..
its th every exception..

-And could that be because of their education?


i can use the line for me. after all all agree im rather exceptional...

-How so? Because you have done time? Teach self defense? You are definitely the exception to the rule regarding those who go to prison.


this is what your doing with your rationalizations.
look close

i went to jail, i went to prison,,now i have a well paying job...thus all those who go to jail and prison will have well payign jobs...

-As I said you are the exception to the rule. You are similar to Ray Johnson who went to prison and then turned his life around by using what he leaned during his life of crime to teach others how to protect themselves against people like him.

the above is all true..in the first sense, the second is what you are doing re mainstream.

-Your education didn't get you where you are, your life of crime did, so you are an exception to the rule. Who knows what you would of done with an education that was mainstreamed.

the plm is
well take a look closer...

-I thought I did.

its easy to correlate anything to anything to suit a certain framework and agenda..(your very good at that though sloppy)..
but it doesn't serve any purpose other then to tun in circles..

-Absolutely, we can correlate anything to anything in life, but by and large it shows time and again that a good education will take you a lot further in life than not getting one.

im going to ask you again because ive asked a number of questions and we both know judging by your post history re discussions the likelihood of you answering any is rather low..

but ill give it another shot

how does Denying a child ASL language acquisition do that child any favours?
how does Denying a child ASL language acquisition help that child?[/QUOTE]

-I have no problem with a child learning ASL as long as they are also taught signing exact English and are mainstreamed so they aren't limited to one way of life or pigeonholed into a particular community. I would not deny a deaf child ASL as well as he/she is also taught signing exact English and is mainstreamed for part of his school day so he/she has exposure to the real world and not limited to just the deaf one. Education is the key here and the more you get the farther you will be able to go.

 

[seb]

I am so impressed with this post from seb; especially the part I have added the bold to as that was my reaction to this mother! I also want to bring up what he quotes from the end of the article about it being hard to get information from either side without the extremists obscuring their information in their judgment or dogma.

Thank you. I'm sorry others can't seem to see it.

 

[seb]

further..




i answered your question. i disagree with your fundamental ideas...you may not accept my answer but ive answered.
i even stated the education system, ironically enough that seems to be what you think too judging by what follows..

-If you did, I'm sorry, I must of missed the answers or had trouble wading through what you said and failed to decipher your answer.

but its even more then that...
frankly it comes down to audism. deep audism to the bone ingrained in hearie society.

-Please explain further please.

discrimination against Deaf, even with an education...its so rampant in hearie society hearies don't even know it most the time...ive been mocked for being the Deaf guy who , heavens forbid can drive (gasp ...how is that possible, you need to be able to speak to drive...and i have more a golden tongue then most hearies...go figure..)to being the Deaf guy who can fight...(we can do that too)...there are very very few things Deaf cannot do..

-Sorry but it's a two way street. The deaf community also exhibits discrimination against the hearing world. The deaf community has a secret language with signs that they only share with other deaf people and rarely if ever will tell someone who is hearing what they have said.

- If you have been mocked by someone for the fact that you are deaf than shame on the person doing the mocking; it only shows his ignorance and stupidity. I would not tolerate mockery for being deaf from anyone and when I was a teacher teaching "normal" kids with special ed kids I would set the so called "normal kids" straight if they mocked or made fun of the special ed kids and did it many times. It boils down to "by the grace of God, go I." You had no choice in being deaf and they obviously have no choice in being stupid and ignorant!

so we know its not due to being Deaf something innate as example like language..we know Deaf can do just about anything any hearie can......


(pls correct me if im wrong)

Absolutely, given a chance most people will rise to the occasion providing they have the tools needed to do the job.

 

[hoichi]

i most certainly do...
do you sign?