KarissaMann05

Sighs. You don't get it.....

I know you didn't say she is a teen, what I meant, you should not consider her as a young person. She is already an adult. I don't think she don't know how to...

Okay, fair enough. Disagree to agree, by then.

I KNOW I WOULD PAY A TAX FOR WHATEVER REASON IS. Secondly, I'm NOT talking about everything else. I'm talking about Octmom's actions, taxes, and bills, and a whole of her family.

No, just because if I said somthing sounds I mostly agree that does not mean I agree her post 100%.

Okay, fine. If you really think so...

Never mind, I realized I actually bold "lack" and "very little". I might have confuse with some posts. And, I'm sorry if I offended you.

Okay. Disagree/agree to agree/disagree, by then, once again.

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Deafness

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Jiro

so do I.... so do I... they're not like dogs where you can just give away 8 puppies to 8 families.

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deafskeptic

How many families do you know that would accept 8 kids? That's the problem here.

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jillio

Especially 8 kids with very specific medical needs.

Byrdie714

"Eight is Enough?"

Berry

It is easy to argue that deliberately having children you unable to care for is irresponsible at any time.

On the other hand if she had never had any other children the drive to be a mother in some women could make it understandable.

However having 6 children already and being on welfare -- Taking fertility drugs seems more of a career move than love of children.

I bet this will be a landmark situation that will cause new laws to be made.

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Daredevel7

I'd hope so!!!!

Maria

And, also there's somethin' I would like for you to read what Berry just posted about the law.

jillio

Berry said that, because if this woman's completely irresponsible behavior, new laws will likely be created. That will take years. In the meantime, there are still 14 children out there living in a single parent home, with a never married mother who has neither the financial means nor the emotional and mental stability to raise them.

But, since you seem to think that this is acceptable, how much money have you sent to contribute to the medical expenses of the 8 that are in the hospital, or the 6 that are home?

KarissaMann05

Maria -

I NEVER SAID 30'S IS PRETTY YOUNG. I SAID A BIT YOUNG. What I said, it's a little young age. Not too young...
Again, I am not talking about life. I'M TALKING ABOUT OCTMOM'S SITUATION AS A SUCH LIKE TAXPAYERS HAVE TO PAY, SHE PUSHED SO HARD ON HER FAMILY, LACK OF RESPONIABLITY TO TAKE CARE OF KIDS, AND SO ON. What I am talking about.

O.è Er, no. I actually don't agree with a several things that Lucia mentioned. Well, for your info, I'm not too liberal anyway. Like I said, if I agree mostly that does not make me to agree 100%.

I just look at her/his post. Sorry to say this.... I think its good! See, it's not so limit. It's common sense. I don't want to see it happen again like what wackoctmom did.

^_^

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KarissaMann05

Word. =/

I don't think gov'ment will take our choices. They just make sure it won't happen again... I don't want to let that happen again in future!!!

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dreama

Yes, that's right. Also the cases might be differant but the media reaction was exactly the same. I mean people saying she should have her daughter taken away. The social services giving her round the clock care for the daughter that she neither needed or wanted, and the media making her look like a really bad mother. The media was on her back when she first had her baby. That is what is similar.

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Maria

Why does it matter ?

dreama

Because they seem to care more about money then they do about people I think.

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sculleywr

Wow, this board moves fast.

Anyways, how many chances did you have with some things? We all get multiple chances (at least, those who survived through the first chance). Secondly, unless you count all 8 of the current children as separate chances, your math is flawed, same goes with any other multiple births she might have had. The point is, she hasn't had a chance where there was the option of failure of keeping the kids. What I am recommended is an ultimatum. This WILL be the last chance, and she will sign a form, with witnesses, that states that she will not keep the kids if she does not satisfy the agreement of the severance. That way, a lawyer cannot find an easy way to get them back.

And yes, I understand what goes into applying for a job. Even I, having been fired once for an accident involving the cart machine, can get solid employment. And until she gets that, she should keep working the crap jobs. Notice, however, that my post lists some dang stringent punishments. Even if she does not satisfy the agreement, until ALL the kids are adopted, she will be footing the bill for foster care, for ALL the kids in the system. In addition, any bills that were all hers, she will continue paying until paid off, as well as any aid her mother requires to recover the pieces of her life, as well as retirement provisions (if needed). All that in the bill list means she will be working for a substantial amount of time before she comes crawling out of the hole.

The point is, there IS a chance. Anyone who thinks there isn't has NO business telling ME anything. You know why? If there isn't a chance for her, there isn't a chance for me, the one who failed college because I was a financial and time management idiot and is still jobless with over 10000 dollars in debt for student loans. If she truly makes an attempt, who are you or Lucia, or anyone else, for that matter, other than a hypocrite to tell her she shouldn't be able to gain redemption? And yes, if you were here in my face, I would say it to your face. Anyone here who has done something monumentally stupid has likely gotten many chances. And guess what, unless you are a rock (literally) you have done something monumentally stupid, doing something monumentally stupid, and/or will do something monumentally stupid in the near future.

sculleywr

Ok, have you ever drunk so much you did something illegal? Or maybe you have taken some illegal substance? Or maybe you're just a chronic speeder. Fine, No more driving for you. No mercy for you, the sinner. If we followed that philosophy in America, America would be no better than Hitler's Nazis.

Yes, she was an idiot. No, she is NOT irredeemable. What if YOU were in her shoes? Wouldn't you want some mercy? Or are you really the way you come off on this thread? Are you really a sick, uncaring, unfeeling, unremorseful person who thinks mercy is a tool of the weak?

I live in the Union Gospel Mission, run by the Reverend Jon Rector, who has more mercy in his pinky finger than me, my friend in staff there, the rest of staff, and my parents have between us all. UGM was founded upon the fact that NOBODY is irredeemable. And it has proven it many times. A place that has taken a drug -addicted drunkard with a sex problem and turn out a respectable, employed (albeit, employed at the mission) pastor that delivers well-constructed intelligent messages has the right to be an authority on the topic of who is redeemable. There are people out there that have done ten times worse than the octo-mom has ever even dreamed of doing that have been redeemed in places like the UGM and Salvation Army and others. Are you saying that we should just throw every person who has a problem into a bonfire? Because the screennames that would fall on top of the list:

sculleywr
LuciaDisturbed
Jillio
Maria

Just take the entire list of screennames on this website, and you could add them to this list. Everyone has a problem with stupidity of some sort.

Your sig says you are afraid of what people do in the name of their god. I do this in the name of mine, and she, while undeserving, deserves forgiveness as much as everyone here from the founder all the way down to the newbie poster who joins in the future. It was this same philosophy of forgiveness and enabling that has given the Deaf, the black man, and the woman the rights we enjoy now. More than anything, she needs us to help her understand what her responsibility is in her position, and what the consequences of her future actions.

"What's done is done, and can never be undone." A quote from a character named Depa Billaba in Shatterpoints. You can't undo what's been done. But you can shape the future. If you think that kids deserve their mother's attention, then taking the kids away from the octo-mom without giving her the opportunity to EARN them back is the most hypocritical thing you can say.

So, I put it to you, are you redeemable? Am I, an unemployed homeless man that failed college my first time round, redeemable? If your answer to the two are yes, then the answer for her, and EVERY other person who has screwed up on such a monumental level is redeemable. If it is no, then nobody here, on this earth, is redeemable.

freckles

knock it out KNOCK it out... chill chill, guys.

first of all, lucia - like you, I'm NOT as religious as most people are but I think "blessings from god" is the other way of saying, "everything happens for a reason"... so I believe this is HAPPENING for A reason - a big reason obviously, like 9/11, tsumani waves, wars and recent plane crashes ... so, for this one, possiblity of a lead to make a new law reducing corrupts, teach people more about society, help society learn goods and bads, etc. don't sweat on it all by yourself.

because now we just can't go back and murder those eight (or those six also) babies, any negativity that has gone to her will <b>not</b> help any-ANY-situation at all as she's already in the deepest battle. what if she's insecured? mentally ill? been unloved? it's only going to drag her down deeper and probably makes her feel like having more babies to feel secured. I'm not saying to sugar-coat her mistakes - again, all this is happening for a very reason, especially a few lessons for her and no enabling fuels are needed.

remember, nothing is under control anyway and nothing is impossible--look at duggars.

Byrdie714

Nice post but do what to point out that the Duggars aren't on public assistance whereas this woman is.

sculleywr

Well put

freckles

yeah, what I'm saying is if duggars could do this then someone else can follow if the babies need (read: need) to be adopted out. I'd rather see by eyes than judging and criticizing, sometimes words just don't appeal as what they sound like.

right now, this is happening to make a new law? restriction? goal for the world? reconnecting something? for this woman to get a real (right) help? could be for so many things .. life is too short FOR me to worry about every single complicated situation going on around the entire world - no magics, all are in the work, progress and take times for sure.

unless you think you can make a big difference by this week, sure.

chris' mom

I think what she was pointing out was anything is possible...

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Dixie

I wasnt saying I support eugenics (I don't) but what I meant was that this woman was on public assistance and jobless from the very get-go. She had all this plastic surgery while living with her mom and living off of public assistance, she makes no attempt to support her own.

Yes I have made my own mistakes, but instead of repeating that mistake over and over and over and over again like this woman has, I learn from it the first time around and I dont become a burden on the social system.

She simply promises that she will have no more children, but how many times had she made that promise to her mother? At least 5 that we know of!

What Im saying is people who can't take care of their own children and yet continue to have more need to be sterilized.

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Byrdie714

I think we will be seeing a new law come out of this situation.

That's the problem with technology and the law. The technology is new and with new things comes new problems that aren't addressed by laws.

LuciaDisturbed

She is 33 and that isn't quite young. I'm 28 and I can make better decisions than she ever will be able to.

So you think she should be allowed to keep popping out more kids, with no one to stop her? SHE MUST STOP! SHE IS BEING IRRESPONSIBLE! How many kids do you think she should be allowed to have before you say "enough is enough"? SHE HAD 14!

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DeviantArt

LuciaDisturbed

I am not talking about her redeeming herself. I am talking about how if we allow this woman to continue doing what she is doing, she is making her own situation worse, and the government already has to pay for all 14 kids. Enough is enough. She clearly has no reasoning abilities to decide that she will stop. She clearly is incompetent. Therefore, someone else must make this decision for her to be sterilized, so she can have no more kids. That's it. I am not talking about mandatory sterilization for all women. Just her. She has shown no signs of considering to stop having more children, especially since she has shown she cannot provide and care for any of the 14 kids. The 14 children she already has are costing the state of California millions of dollars now and over their entire lifetimes. I would not demand mandatory sterilization for all women...this should be on a rare case by case basis...a rare case like hers. And I have mercy....for the CHILDREN and for Nadya's parents. I don't have much mercy for her right now other than that she is clearly mentally ill and cannot make appropriate medical decisions. Maybe she can take care of herself, but she cannot make appropriate medical decisions regarding herself and her children. She made the decision to ALLOW the doctor to implant SIX embryos into her uterus. That's not an appropriate decision. Someone's gotta step in before this whole thing turns into a tragedy due to neglect due to the fact that she does not have the means to care and provide for all 14 kids on her own with no income of her own except the very little income she gets from public assistance and food stamps, and none is it enough to cover the entire family, and she is also living in a 3 bedroom house. How do you fit 14 kids, herself, and her parents into that house? that's 17 people total (if her father lives there too, not sure if he does as he is not in the news hardly much). I am 28 years old and I know NOT to allow a doctor to implant so many embryos into my uterus. I have the reasoning ability and the ability to make appropriate medical decisions. I know NOT to have a child while on public assistance.

What she did is so much bigger than having smoked some weed once or taken an illegal substance once. She endangered the lives of eight babies because she elected to allow to be implanted with 6 embryos instead of telling the doctor to limit the # of embryos to 2 or 3. Now we have 8 very fragile babies that will have serious medical complications and problems and they may have to be in and out of the hospital for the rest of their lives. Having medical problems is NOT fun. I feel sorry for the fragile babies.

I am not saying we should not forgive her. What I am saying is that if we don't do something about her case, she might continue to have more babies, maybe even have more through IVF, which might result in more multiple pregnancies. She's had 14, more than she can handle. The state needs to step in and stop this. She seems like she isn't thinking of stopping. What if in a few years she decides to shop around for another doctor who is willing to do IVF on her? And she ends up with another multiple pregnancy? Then the state will have to foot the bill for that one too. Enough is enough. And we need to set an example for other women everywhere to make them realize that they need to make appropriate medical decisions regarding their pregnancies, especially if they are going through IVF treatments. I would like for women to say "please do not implant more than 2 in my uterus" instead of just simply allowing the doctor to implant as many as the doctor wanted to. Nadya clearly had no self-control regarding the # of children she has and she sounds like she wants more. No, I do not want mandatory sterilization for all women. But sometimes there is going to be a case like this that pops up that clearly needs the state to step in and do something before the situation becomes even worse. So, I will support the occassional mandatory sterilization for unique cases like hers. If the woman has many kids but has the ability to provide and the means to pay for food, utilities, mortgage, clothes, everything for all her children with little or no help from the government, then no sterilization is needed. But Nadya...she clearly needs to be sterilized. She has NO means to provide for any of her children, and I fear she may keep on having more, she already has 14, so the state needs to step in and stop her from having more since she has NO money to provide for any of them. She's got 8 fragile babies in the NICU in the hospital that may not leave for about 3 to 6 months (my estimate) until the doctors deem them healthy enough to go home. She doesn't seem to understand the consequences of her actions. She thinks that what she did is the most wonderful thing ever. She doesn't realize that her babies are so fragile and that they are going to have many medical problems over the entire lifetimes. She hasn't realized that what she did has put herself and her babies in a very extremely serious and perilous situation. Somebody's got to do something about HER.

And I honestly, realistically do not see her being able to take care of all 14 kids physically by herself without a lot of help. 14 kids is like being in a circus or a zoo. 6 older kids who kick, hit, scream, throw toys, cry, swear, run around, and then 8 crying, shitting, puking, screaming babies that need frequent diaper changes. I would sure as hell NOT want to be in that kind of situation! She can't even take care of the older 6 kids without her mother's help. Her mother is tired of having to take care of them. She wants to retire and have free time to herself.

Maybe your mission want to take this mother in and her 14 kids in? Go for it.

Also, Medi-Cal should stop paying for ALL fertility treatments. That would cut down on the # of this bullshit. Medi-Cal is public state insurance, like Medicaid. Medicaid here does not cover fertility treatments, and I think that is fair. Fertility treatments does not promote health or prevent health problems or treat health problems to prevent illness or death. It's not something that we NEED. It's something we WANT...therefore Medi-Cal shouldn't cover it...it's NOT a necessity.

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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Philosopher George Santayana.


Implanted left ear 10/11/06, activated 10/16/06 - Nucleus Freedom

My own CI experience, my views on CI and ASL and Deaf Culture and Society

DeviantArt

LuciaDisturbed

Exactly. I don't support eugenics, either. And I meant that this woman...she's having 14 kids with no job, on public assistance, getting plastic surgery somehow (did Medi-Cal pay for it too?) and all that...is just plain irresponsible. I am afraid that the children may end up being neglected due to her actions and due to her inability to care for so many on her own with no resources at all. She needs to stop having more kids, but if she won't stop, then the government needs to step in, so that she can focus on the kids she already has without adding more to the fuel. Just...enough is enough. Especially since the state of California is footing the bill.

__________________


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Philosopher George Santayana.


Implanted left ear 10/11/06, activated 10/16/06 - Nucleus Freedom

My own CI experience, my views on CI and ASL and Deaf Culture and Society

DeviantArt

chris' mom

I dont' see anyone in their right mind implanting her again!!!! It'll be HARD to anyone to do it again..

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Children are a gift from the Lord, indeed, they are a blessing.

Maria

Like I said earlier.... She needs some HELP! You can not tell her to STOP or make/force her to have a sterlization or have her womb be removed. Her body is NOT your body. Understand ??

I am NOT goin' to say that she is bein' irresponsible. And, of course I am not goin' to agree with you on everythin' you say in your posts. I still disagree with you, period.

sculleywr

Apparently you forgot to read the entire post. Go back, read my post about what she should do to redeem herself, and tell me how she is doing anything in that list? Those restrictions effectively prevent her doing what she is doing, if she follows them. Following them, she can redeem herself, AND regain the kids by earning them back and paying her debts to both her mother and the public. Tell me how that allows her to keep doing what she is doing?

Also, if it were impossible to take care of 14 kids, the Duggars would never be possible. Obviously, impossible is not.

Daredevel7

You're forgetting one simple fact: Duggars's kids vary in age. There is a HUGE difference between taking care of 8 babies at once and 8 kids that vary 0-14 (or whatever) years old. Kids become more self sustaining as they get older. I am willing to bet that some of Duggars' older kids help out with the housework or maybe even babysit the little ones.