deafdyke

Good point............I mean why didn't he apologize to Elisabeth? I think you're right. He's just parrotting what he thinks the police wants to hear. Believe me, I didn't fall for that "Oh I kinew it was wrong but I did it any way" You can SO tell behind those words, he feels perfectly justified in his actions.
I would LOVE to be one of the psychologists examining him. This is a really fasinating case. You know......I would love to have Oliver Sacks do one of his Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat analysis articles on a severe sociopath. It's interesting. How is it that one person with sociopathic tendancies in childhood grows up to be borderline psychopathic disorder (mentally ill, but doesn't do bizare stuff like be a serial killer or eat people or imprison and rape their own daughter) and another person grows up to be severely socio/pyschopathic. Is there a diffy between antisocial personality disorder and pychopathy? For some reason I thought that pyschopathy was more severe then APD.

Deafness

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jiro123

what's APD?

deafdyke

APD is antisocial personality disorder.
Now here's a question............what exactly does criminally insane MEAN?

jillio

All of the disorders can occur on a continuum. Severity varies with the individual and the precipitating circumstances.

deafdyke

Well jillo, according to the link Reba gave, sociopaths and psychopaths can't use their condition to plead NGRI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity)
Psychologically they are off their rockers, but they can't be found legally insane.
Plus, I mean psychopathy isn't a mental illness per se......its more of a severe personality disorder.

jillio

And a personality disorder is a mental illness under DSM criteria.

No, they can't use it to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. However, they can use it to plead guilty but insane, or to be found guilty but insane. The number of cases in which an individual is found not guilty by reason of insanity are extremely rare, and involve only those cases where the mental illness is psychotic in nature and of such a degree that the individual is unable to distinguish right from wrong. One of the most famous cases is that of Billy Milligan, who is also one of the few documented cases of dissociative identity disorder. He was committed to a forensic institute for life.

They can be found to be insane, just not to the degree that a psychotic can be found to be insane.

One can have a mental illness and still be held responsible under the law for their actions, depending upon the actual diagnosis and the specific features of the mental illness. Few mental illnesses interfere with an individual's ability to determine right from wrong. However, that doesn't make the individual any less mentall ill.

deafskeptic

I seem to recall a case that supports what you say. I am referring to the case of John List who wasn't a sociopath but he has a severe case of Obsessive compulsive personality disorder; such people tend to think in terms of black and white. He would have thought rape was criminal but because he thought that he was saving his wife and children from the Devil by killing them before their souls became damned, he felt perfectly justified in killing his whole family and so he feels no remorse for it.

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deafdyke

Deafskeptic, it sounds like he was a sociopath. The article you linked to, said that he acted very cold. (ie sociopathicly)
Plus perhaps he was also kind of psyotic....I mean most people wouldn't think that they needed to kill people to save them from the devil.

deafskeptic

Perhaps he had a co-morbid condtion along with his offical dx of OCPD. I will grant that most people with OCPD wouldn't commit such an act.

Most people with APD and sociopathology have a criminal history. John List has no such history. He's said to be be sort who wouldn't even risk a parking ticket.

I will admit that I'm no shrink but I think there's a reason that he wasn't dx'd a sociopath.

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jillio

Excellent example, deafskeptic.

jillio

Yes, he no doubt did have a comorbid disorder. He suffered a psychotic break. I don't think that he suffered from APD. I think he most like had a comorbid psychotic disorder. APD does not result in psychosis. As a matter of fact, many individuals diagnosed with APD live within the community without even being suspected of having a mental disorder, just as Josef did for many years. Others quite often see them as upstanding citizens, and good parents and spouses. That is the result of their tremendous ability to manipulate, and the fragmentation of their identity. They can create easily the personae the wish to portray to others because they have no true identity to interfere with the process of doing so. They become whoever or whatever serves their purpose at the time. People with APD are egocentric, in that their entire motivation for any action is that which will benefit them. They have no evidence of moral development, in that they have no conscious. They have a decided superiority complex, in that they believe that they are intelligent enough to get around those laws that apply to everyone else. They have no problem with sacrificing others for the fulfillment of their desires because they fully believe that they deserve it. Evidence of APD usually becomes evident in early childhood, and it becomes a way of living that is incorporated into their lifestyle. Much, much different from a psychotic disorder.

Mental disorders are categorized by symtomology and behaviors. All do not follow the same pattern, nor do all create the same form of thought disturbance in the sufferer. List was not dx'ed as a sociopath because the did not meet any of the criteria of a sociopath.

Dixie

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
Insane

In*sane"\, a. [L. insanus. See In- not, and Sane.]

1. Exhibiting unsoundness or disorded of mind; not sane; mad; deranged in mind; delirious; distracted. See Insanity, 2.

2. Used by, or appropriated to, insane persons; as, an insane hospital.

3. Causing insanity or madness. [R.]

Or have we eaten on the insaneroot That takes the reason prisoner ? --Shak.

4. Characterized by insanity or the utmost folly; chimerical; unpractical; as, an insane plan, attempt, etc.

I know not which was the insane measure. --Southey. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This psy·cho·path Audio Help (sī'kə-pāth') Pronunciation Key
n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.



To me insane means you have lost all connectivity to reality. You can no longer differentiate what is real and what is in your head. Being a psychopath to me means that he deviates from the norm on all levels. He still knew what was real and what was not because of the fact that he took deliberate steps to hide his cellar children even from his OWN wife and kids. A psychopath is one that harms others without guilt or remorse for their actions.

Fritzl by those definitions is not insane - but psychopathic. JMHO.

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jillio

That is just it. Psychopathology is a form of insanity, or mental disorder. Again, antisocial personality disorder is a diagnosis under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as used by the psychiatric and clinical psychological and clinical counseling professions to diagnose mental disorders (or insanity, of you prefer).

You definition first says, "unsoundness of mind". Antisocial personality disorder is an unsoundness of mind. Thoughts and behavior are both deviant. I don't think anyone would believe that one could come up with the deviant acts that Josef Fritzl devised and still be considered to be of sound mind.

Here is what the DSM IV (TR) has to say about anti-social personality disorder:

Individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an infalted and arrogant self appraisal )e.g. feel that ordinary work is beneath them or lack a realistic concern about their current problems or their future)and may be sxcessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluable and verbally facile (e.g. using technical terms or jargon that might impress someone who is unfamiliar with the topic). Lack of empathy, inflated self appraisal, and superficial charm are features that have been commonly included in traditional conceptions of psychopathy that may be particularly distinguishing of the disorder and more predictive of recidivism in prison or forensic settings where criminal, delinquent, or aggressive acts are likely to be non-specific, These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitative in their sexual relationships. They may have a history of many sexual partners any may never have sustained a monogamous relationship. They may be irresponsible as parents, an evidenced by malnutrition of a child, an illness in the child resulting from lack of minimal hygiene, a childs dependence upon neighbors or nonresidentail relatives for food or shelter, a failure to arrange a caretaker for a young child when the individual is away from home,m or repeated squandering of money required for household necessities, The individuals may receive dishonorable discharges from the armed services, may fail to be self supporting, may become impoverished or even homeless, or may spend many years in penal institutions.

Here are the diagnostic criteria:

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by 3 (or more) of the following:
(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and agressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assualts
(5) reckless disregard for the safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

B. The individual is at least 18 years.
C. There is evidnece of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.
D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.



There are degrees of insanity. One does not have to have a full psychotic break to be considered metally ill.

deafdyke

jillo,
On the other hand, a personality disorder is just SO drasticly different from an actual mental illness like bipolar, scheziophernia etc.

deafskeptic

Yeah... and life can be desvasting for those who have to live with a person with a personanilty disorder.

I don't even want to think of what life must be like for someone with ADD with organization difficulties with a parent with OCPD.

I bet you anything John List is the sort who polishes his silver 13 times a year, orders his family to organizes their Chinese food before his family can eat it and he's the sort who so believes in the value of hard work that his only means of relaxation is a card game once a week or sports on tv on Sat.

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deafdyke

Ummmm ADD and OCD aren't nessarily personality disorders. They are nereological disorders.
So are you saying that John List is classic Type A personality?

deafskeptic

Let me rephrase this. I know neither ADD or OCD are personality disorders.

There's a difference between OCD and obessive-complusive personality disorder. OCD is to do with unwelcome thoughts and complusions while people with obbessive complusive personality are excessively concerned with rules, details and schedules to the point of inflexiablity. Things have to be done just so. They're excessivly concerned with order.

I said that I didn't envy anyone with ADD who have problems with organization who have to live with a parent with OCPD. It's a recipe for chaos in the family.


OCD has to do with things like washing your hands over and over.. or having unwelcome thoughts like feeling like you just ran over somone.

List could be a type A but most type As aren't as concerend with order to the degree he is.

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jillio

ADD and OCD both have neurological components, but are also considered to be mental disorders under the American Psychiatric Association. But they are not personality disorders.

Being a Type A personalty is not a personality disorder, nor is it a mental illness. It is a personality type.

jillio

Exactly.

jillio

A personality disorder is an actual mental disorder. It is a mental disorder of the personality type. Bipolar is a dpressive type of mental disorder. Schizophrenia is a psychotic type of mental disorder. The are different types and manifest with different symptomology. That doesn't mean they aren't all mental disorders.

Cancers manitfest with different symtoms by locating in various areas of the body, and can be fast growing or slow growing. Some are more lethal than others. However, they are all still cancers.

deafdyke

jillo, on the other hand..........personality disorders like anti social personality disorder and bpd almost make the person not human. With sceizo and bipolar and the other ones, the people with it are still pretty much human. But APD removes the empathy from the species. From my psych reading, psychologists define "humanity" as pretty much empathy.

jillio

Empathic understanding most definately is one of the features missing in some of the personality disorders. It isn't so much that empathy has been removed, but that the developmental tasks were so incomplete or distorted that it simply never developed. Emapthy is learned through completion of developmental tasks of chicldhood. We are not inherently empathic. And various people have differing abilities to both experience and express empathy.

While an ability to experience empathy is most certainly a quality of humanity, it is not the only quality that makes one human.

Re: schizoid disorders and depressive disorders: I have seen some severely affected individuals who were incapable of experiencing emapthy. With the psychotic disorders, thinking is often so disturbed and unrealistic that the idividual cannot experience emapthy for others. Likewise, many of the dpressive disorders result in an individual being so ego centric and lacking in affect that they are incapable of experiencing empathy as well. They may have an intellectual understanding of the concept, but be unable to experience the emotion.

deafdyke

True, but I mean the thing is, there's a HUGE difference that I really can't articulate between classic mental illnesses and personality disorders. I think it's b/c the personality disorder is pretty much the person's personality, whereas a more classic mental illness isn't a part of the person's personality.

jillio

If you are talking about inherent personality traits, then you are incorrect. People are not born with anti-social personality traits. They are learned.

Any behavior associated with a mental disorder can be considered to be a part of the person's personality, as it affects the way that they interact with the environment and other individuals.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I respectfully disagreee. Personality disorders can be treated and altered. Inherent personality characteristics cannot. That is why it is called a personality disorder rather than a personality type.

deafdyke

Really? Then how come APD and borderline personality disorder have NOT met with sucessful treatment outcomes? APD and BPD are extremely hard to treat.....and I would bet that almost all the ones that have been sucessfully treated, were borderline.

jillio