Cheney Accidentally Shoots Fellow Hunter - Page 2

Heath · 02-14-2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

Didn't the guy who got hit break the first rule of line hunting: Announce your return if you get out of line!

and also Vice President Cheney should have held his line of fire.

pek1 · 02-14-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath

Not necessarily,

If you are disabled or have a handicapped hunter's license then you can shoot from a moving truck to get a deer, a bear or a wild game like quail etc.

You would have to apply for a disabled hunter's license and get medical paperwork signed at the doctor's office.

Have a happy and safe hunting.

As soon as I saw your "Not necessarily," I knew I had been called on it. This is correct and I didn't mention it.

Also, in Minnesota, one can hunt with a crossbow if disabled. My oldest brother has his doctor's okay to hunt with one, but hasn't yet or has a crossbow. I have a birth defect on left hand/arm, so there'd be no problem for me to hunt with a crossbow. Thanks Heath, for the correction.

The*Empress · 02-14-2006, 01:42 PM

What happen if the lawyer die from heart attack? Will Cheney be charge with murder? Will Cheney not be Vice President anymore?

02-14-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss*Pinocchio

What happen if the lawyer die from heart attack? Will Cheney be charge with murder? Will Cheney not be Vice President anymore?

OH, Miss P., what a terrible thought!

Nope, his position will be over at the end of the second term. Moreover, he would not annoucne for the new presidency.

Steel X · 02-14-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss*Pinocchio

What happen if the lawyer die from heart attack? Will Cheney be charge with murder? Will Cheney not be Vice President anymore?

If he did die, he should've been charged with murder anyway...even if it was an accident. there's still no excuse to let him go just because he's a vice president

a crime is a crime is A CRIME.

**Beowulf** · 02-14-2006, 02:08 PM

What ordinarily happens in this sort of situation to the Average Joe is that he gets charged with misdemeanor assault and negligently wounding another person, and the punishment would be something like 20 or 30 hours work on the Sheriff's road crews, no hunting for a couple years during its probation time, a hefty fine, etc.
But will Cheney be considered above the law?
Yup.

pek1 · 02-14-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

What ordinarily happens in this sort of situation to the Average Joe is that he gets charged with misdemeanor assault and negligently wounding another person, and the punishment would be something like 20 or 30 hours work on the Sheriff's road crews, no hunting for a couple years during its probation time, a hefty fine, etc.
But will Cheney be considered above the law?
Yup.

Chain Gang!! We can fantasize, can't we?

Taylor · 02-14-2006, 02:27 PM

I was talking to some officers today who are hunters (I'm not a hunter myself) and was told that a lot of these accidents are somewhat common in regards to bird shot when hunting birds.

I found some stats from Texas about hunting accidents --HERE-- (PDF Format)

As for penalties,

Quote:

What ordinarily happens in this sort of situation to the Average Joe is that he gets charged with misdemeanor assault and negligently wounding another person, and the punishment would be something like 20 or 30 hours work on the Sheriff's road crews, no hunting for a couple years during its probation time, a hefty fine, etc.
But will Cheney be considered above the law?
Yup.

I did some looking around and I haven't found anything that says Cheney's citation for not having a license is out of the ordinary and is common practice. A hunting accident doesn't mean it was an assault nor negligent wounding, nor did I find that it was standard for hunting accidents to be charged with 20 to 30 hours on a road crew, nor getting probation.

If they can find that he broke the law, then charge him with it, but apparently the only law he broke was not having a permit (which he was charged with).

Both parties at this are at fault (not just Cheney) and both broke common safety practices when it comes to hunting. They are both idiots in that regard but the last time I checked, being an idiot isn't a crime by itself.

Its interesting that some people think Cheney should be charged more harshly than the Average Joe who does something stupid. Some may think that Cheney is 'above the law', but why should he be below the law?

Whats suprising to me is how many people accidentally shoot themselves. This is where safety comes into mind. Here is an example of a lot of the articles I read.

Quote:

A CPO is investigating a hunting accident that occurred in far southern Iroquois County. A nine year old upland hunter, accompanied by his father, accidentally wounded a ten year old female companion. The girl was not hunting, but was with her father in the hunting party. The victim suffered pellet wounds to her face, torso, and an arm. She was airlifted to an Urbana hospital, but her injuries were not life threatening. The shooter is an Indiana resident who attended hunter education in his home state. No charges have been filed.

Reiko · 02-14-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel X

If he did die, he should've been charged with murder anyway...even if it was an accident. there's still no excuse to let him go just because he's a vice president

a crime is a crime is A CRIME.

But it was an accident not a crime. If he did it on purpose or ran away after he did it then it becomes a crime.

**Beowulf** · 02-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor

I was talking to some officers today who are hunters (I'm not a hunter myself) and was told that a lot of these accidents are somewhat common in regards to bird shot when hunting birds.

I found some stats from Texas about hunting accidents --HERE-- (PDF Format)

As for penalties,

I did some looking around and I haven't found anything that says Cheney's citation for not having a license is out of the ordinary and is common practice. A hunting accident doesn't mean it was an assault nor negligent wounding, nor did I find that it was standard for hunting accidents to be charged with 20 to 30 hours on a road crew, nor getting probation.

If they can find that he broke the law, then charge him with it, but apparently the only law he broke was not having a permit (which he was charged with).

Both parties at this are at fault (not just Cheney) and both broke common safety practices when it comes to hunting. They are both idiots in that regard but the last time I checked, being an idiot isn't a crime by itself.

Its interesting that some people think Cheney should be charged more harshly than the Average Joe who does something stupid. Some may think that Cheney is 'above the law', but why should he be below the law?

Whats suprising to me is how many people accidentally shoot themselves. This is where safety comes into mind. Here is an example of a lot of the articles I read.

I agree that it was apparently a simple hunting accident and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. A couple years ago I had a buddy who accidentally shot someone in the leg while deerhunting, and he got into ALL SORTS of trouble for it. I also agree that Cheney shouldn't be judged more harshly than the Average Joe, but heck, as far as I know, he still hasn't talked to the police about the incident, which makes HIM think he is indeed above the law.
Anyway, i am glad we can still see humor in what could have been a lot worse, and yup, accidents happen more frequently than we suppose.

02-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Hunter Shot by Cheney Has Minor Heart Attack

Vice President Dick Cheney walks on the third floor of the Senate side of Capitol Hill, Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2006. On Monday, the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department issued a report that found the main factor contributing to Cheney's hunting accident was a "hunter's judgment factor." (AP PhHunter Shot by Cheney Has Minor Heart Attack

By Daniela Deane and William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, February 14, 2006; 3:36 PM

Quote:

The 78-year-old Texas lawyer who was shot by Vice President Cheney in a hunting accident suffered a "minor heart attack" this morning after a piece of birdshot moved and lodged in his heart, hospital officials said.

Doctors treating Harry Whittington said the Republican lawyer was moved back into the intensive care unit and will need to remain hospitalized for at least a week.

A statement issued later by Cheney's office said the vice president spoke to Whittington around 1:30 p.m., wishing him well and asking if he needed anything.

"The vice president said that he stood ready to assist," the statement said. "Mr. Whittington's spirits were good, but obviously his situation deserves the careful monitoring that his doctors are providing."

"Some of the birdshot appears to have moved and lodged into part of his heart," Peter Banko, an administrator and spokesman for Christus Spohn Memorial Hospital, told reporters outside the Corpus Christi hospital. Banko said the birdshot "caused him to have a minor heart attack."

Asked if the birdshot could move more and endanger Whittington's life, David Blanchard, emergency room chief at the hospital, said: "When birdshot is in your body, there's always the risk they can move. We'll watch very closely for any migration."

He said later, however, that the single BB-like piece of birdshot is "in a fixed position" and it not expected to travel. Blanchard said he and other doctors treating Whittington feel "very strongly that all the other birdshot in him is not problematic." The number of other pieces of birdshot in Whittington's body is not known, he said, but could range anywhere from "more than five" to "less than 150 to 200."

Blanchard described the incident this morning as an "atrial fibrillation," or quivering of the upper part of the heart, as a result of irritability or inflammation caused by the piece of birdshot. He also described it as a "silent or minor heart attack."

The turn of events, announced in a news briefing this afternoon, injected a more serious tone into reports of the accidental shooting, which had become the subject of jokes on late-night talk shows and the Internet. Even White House spokesman Scott McClellan made light of the shooting this morning when he joked to reporters about the orange tie he was wearing and said the reason the visiting University of Texas football team was wearing orange -- the school color -- on the South Lawn was "not because they are concerned that the vice president will be there."

In the only eyewitness account of Saturday's shooting to emerge so far, Katharine Armstrong, the owner of the ranch where it took place, described Whittington's injuries as minor. She said he was hit in the cheek, neck and chest by birdshot from a 28-guage shotgun when Cheney turned and fired at a quail, not realizing that Whittington was in his line of fire.

Armstrong, a prominent Texas Republican and strong supporter of President Bush, told reporters that the birdshot "broke the skin." She said the shotgun blast "knocked him silly. But he was fine. He was talking. His eyes were open. It didn't get in his eyes or anything like that."

Blanchard said what happened to Whittington was extremely rare. He said cardiologists may see a similar case only once or twice in their lifetimes.

Banko said cardiologists at the hospital were consulting with White House doctors because the doctors had first treated Whittington after Cheney accidentally shot him.

Blanchard said only one piece of birdshot was causing Whittington's heart problems at the moment. "This is the only one we are concerned about," he said.

He and Banko described the heart attack as "asymptomatic," meaning that Whittington did not display any symptoms of a heart attack.

"We picked up an irregular heartbeat,' Blanchard said. "At no time did he ever have any chest pain." He said the incident happened around 6:30 a.m.

"We knew he had some birdshot very close to the heart from the get-go," Blanchard said. However, "we're not 100 percent certain where it is," he added, explaining that doctors felt it was better to leave it alone than to operate to remove it at this point.

Blanchard said Whittington's coronary arteries are clear and that "he has the heart of a much, much younger individual."

According to the American Heart Association, atrial fibrillation affects about 2.2 million Americans. It happens when the heart's two small upper chambers quiver instead of beating effectively. As a result, blood can pool in the chambers and clot, potentially causing a stroke.

Cheney, 65, shot Whittington late Saturday afternoon at the exclusive 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch near Corpus Christi during a hunting party with three other people.

Details emerged yesterday showing that the White House allowed Cheney to decide when and how to disclose details of the shooting to the local sheriff and the public the next morning.

Cheney has not commented personally on the shooting or acknowledged any error. Mary Matalin, a Cheney adviser, has said that Cheney "felt badly" about the incident, but she added that "he was not careless or incautious" and did not violate any hunting rules. "He didn't do anything he wasn't supposed to do," Matalin said.

Cheney watched part of the press conference outside the Corpus Christi hospital on television after being advised that doctors would brief the press "on complications in Mr. Whittington's condition," according to the statement issued by Cheney's office.

"The vice president said that his thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Whittington and his family," it said.

© 2006 The Washington Post Companyoto/Lauren Victoria Burke) (Lauren Victoria Burke - AP)

02-14-2006, 03:46 PM

Loose Cannon
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Tuesday, February 14, 2006; 2:18 PM

Quote:

Who's calling the shots at the White House? Dick Cheney, of course.

There are lots of lessons to be learned from Vice President Cheney's accidental shooting of a hunting buddy on Saturday, and the ensuing press blackout.

But the evidence suggests that Cheney isn't interested in learning any of them. Instead, the public is getting an opportunity to learn some lessons about Cheney.

And lesson number one is that Cheney gets his way.

Jim VandeHei and Sylvia Moreno write in The Washington Post about new details that show that "the White House allowed Cheney to decide when and how to disclose details of the shooting to the local sheriff and the public the next morning.

"President Bush and White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove were told of the shooting Saturday night but deferred to Cheney on providing information to the public, White House aides said. In what one official described as a break with the White House practice of disclosing such high-level mishaps immediately, Cheney waited more than 14 hours after the shooting to disclose it publicly. . . .

"The White House typically releases information immediately on incidents involving the president's personal life, such as bike-riding accidents, to avoid the appearance of covering up embarrassments. It is highly unusual, if not unprecedented, for the White House to allow a private citizen [to] serve as its de facto spokesman.

"But current and former aides said the White House rarely imposes its practices, especially on press matters, on Cheney. The vice president's office often operates autonomously in a manner that many top White House officials are reluctant to challenge."

Anne E. Kornblut and Ralph Blumenthal write in the New York Times: "At the White House, Mr. Cheney made no statement on Monday and remained out of public view. At the beginning of a meeting with Secretary General Kofi Annan of the United Nations, Mr. Bush laughingly told Mr. Cheney that reporters would later enter the room; the vice president left before the journalists arrived."

Kornblut and Blumenthal write that the White House was under pressure "from questions about whether Mr. Cheney -- who is already known for his inclination to keep his business, professional and political dealings behind closed doors -- might have been trying to play down the incident, a suggestion rejected by those who were with Mr. Cheney over the weekend.

"Among the people with him at the Armstrong Ranch in South Texas was his host Katharine Armstrong, a lobbyist and longtime friend of Mr. Cheney. Her lobbying clients include several that do business with the federal government, though Ms. Armstrong said she did not believe that she had ever lobbied Mr. Cheney."

Here's Bill Plante on CBS this morning: "The vice president's office did what they wanted. . . . In any other White House that I've covered -- and that's several, as you know -- the vice president would never have this kind of power. But if it were up to Dick Cheney, he wouldn't tell us if our shirts were on fire, for heaven's sakes. He likes to hold things close and he and his office drove this."

Mike Allen writes on Time.com: "The Vice President was the press strategist, and Karl Rove was the investigative reporter. Vice President Cheney overruled the advice of several members of the White House staff and insisted on sticking to a plan for releasing information about his hunting accident that resulted in a 20-hour, overnight delay in public confirmation of the startling incident, according to several Republican sources."

John Dickerson writes in Slate: "Cheney's allies (and those are different than Bush allies in this case) argue that Cheney cared more about his hurt friend and his host than he did about informing the Beltway press. Maybe for the first hour or two, but to wait so long only points out what we always have known about the vice president: He doesn't give a damn about the public or press' right to know. . . .

"And at some point Cheney's starchy behavior is also insulting. Shouldn't there be some minimum level of explanation he's willing to offer as the second-highest ranking public official? When you nearly commit homicide as a public official shouldn't the honor of your office compel you to stand up and explain yourself in some fashion, at least say something in a press release and not just whisper it to a Texas rancher?

"If that sense of duty doesn't compel him, Cheney should see the political necessity of saying something fast."

About Deciding to Call the Press

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VandeHei and Moreno write in The Washington Post: "In a telephone interview, [Katharine] Armstrong said that she, her mother and her sister, Sara Storey Armstrong Hixon, decided on Sunday morning after breakfast to report the shooting accident to the media. 'It was my family's own volition, and the vice president agreed. We felt -- my family felt and we conferred as a family -- that the information needed to go public. It was our idea,' Armstrong said."

CBS News's Mark Knoller reports: "Ranch owner Katharine Armstrong said no one discussed notifying the public of the accident Saturday because they were so consumed with making sure [Harry] Whittington was OK. She said the family realized in the morning that it would be a story and decided to call the local newspaper, the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. She said she then discussed the news coverage with Cheney for the first time."

But Nicholas Riccardi and James Gerstenzang write in the Los Angeles Times that Anne Armstrong, co-owner of the ranch, "said Cheney had spoken with her Saturday evening about disclosing the incident to the public. 'We knew word would get out,' she said. He urged her to tell friends and family first, before word leaked out to the media."

Here's what CNN's Suzanne Malveaux said at yesterday's press briefing: "Katharine Armstrong talked to CNN Sunday evening. She said that she thought this was going to become a story, so she was going to go to the local press. She also told CNN that she did not believe the Vice President's office was aware that she was going to go to the local press."

And lest we forget, according to press secretary Scott McClellan, Rove called the ranch shortly before 8 p.m. Saturday night and spoke to one of the Armstrongs about the incident.

Live Online

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I'll be Live Online tomorrow at 1 p.m. ET. Come visit.

The Press Corps

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Marc Sandalow writes in the San Francisco Chronicle: "The White House struggled Monday in the face of an aggressive press corps to explain why it took nearly a full day to disclose that Vice President Dick Cheney had shot a fellow quail hunter.

"The uproar over a matter as straightforward -- some would say trivial -- as a hunting mishap demonstrated the long-standing tension between the media's presumption that it be kept promptly informed and the Bush administration's insistence on managing the news."

Alan Freeman writes in Toronto's Globe and Mail: "After five years of largely accepting the Bush administration's version of events on everything from Iraq's illusory weapons of mass destruction to the bungled response to hurricane Katrina, the White House press corps suddenly turned aggressive yesterday, refusing to accept spokesman Scott McClellan's explanations of why the public had been left in the dark about Mr. Cheney's hunting mishap."

Briefing and Gaggle Follies

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Entirely too much material to excerpt from yesterday's briefing . You'll just have to read it yourself.

Mark Silva writes in the Chicago Tribune's Washington blog about the early-morning gaggle, which was even more raucous.

"David Gregory, the chief White House correspondent for NBC News, was warmed up.

"Why was the White House relying on a Texas rancher to get the word of Cheney's hunting accident out over the weekend, asked Gregory, accusing McClellan of 'ducking and weaving.'

"'David, hold on . . . the cameras aren't on right now,' McClellan replied. 'You can do this later.'

" 'Don't accuse me of trying to pose to the cameras,' the newsman said, his voice rising somewhat. 'Don't be a jerk to me personally when I'm asking you a serious question.' "

McClellan's Joke

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Nedra Pickler writes for the Associated Press this morning: "The White House has decided that the best way to deal with Vice President Dick Cheney's shooting accident is to joke about it.

"President Bush's spokesman quipped Tuesday that the burnt orange school colors of the University of Texas championship football team that was visiting the White House shouldn't be confused for hunter's safety wear.

" 'The orange that they're wearing is not because they're concerned that the vice president may be there,' joked White House press secretary Scott McClellan, following the lead of late-night television comedians. 'That's why I'm wearing it.' "

Comedy Central

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The Associated Press has a wrap-up of last night's late-night humor at Cheney's expense.

From the "Late Show with David Letterman": "Good news, ladies and gentlemen, we have finally located weapons of mass destruction: It's Dick Cheney."

From "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno": "That's the big story over the weekend. . . . Dick Cheney accidentally shot a fellow hunter, a 78-year-old lawyer. In fact, when people found out he shot a lawyer, his popularity is now at 92 percent. . . .

"I think Cheney is starting to lose it. After he shot the guy he screamed, 'Anyone else want to call domestic wire tapping illegal?' "

And from "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart": "Now, this story certainly has its humorous aspects. . . . But it also raises a serious issue, one which I feel very strongly about. . . . Moms, dads, if you're watching right now, I can't emphasize this enough: Do not let your kids go on hunting trips with the vice president. I don't care what kind of lucrative contracts they're trying to land, or energy regulations they're trying to get lifted - it's just not worth it."

Salon's War Room transcribes Stewart's dialogue with "correspondent" Rob Corddry on the Daily Show:

"Stewart: Rob, obviously a very unfortunate situation. How is the vice president handling it?

"Corddry: Jon, tonight the vice president is standing by his decision to shoot Harry Whittington. According to the best intelligence available, there were quail hidden in the brush. Everyone believed at the time there were quail in the brush. And while the quail turned out to be a 78-year-old man, even knowing that today, Mr. Cheney insists he still would have shot Mr. Whittington in the face. He believes the world is a better place for his spreading buckshot throughout the entire region of Mr. Whittington's face.

"Stewart: But why, Rob? If he had known Mr. Whittington was not a bird, why would he still have shot him?

"Corddry: Jon, in a post-9/11 world, the American people expect their leaders to be decisive. To not have shot his friend in the face would have sent a message to the quail that America is weak.

"Stewart: That's horrible.

"Corddry: Look, the mere fact that we're even talking about how the vice president drives up with his rich friends in cars to shoot farm-raised wingless quail-tards is letting the quail know 'how' we're hunting them. I'm sure right now those birds are laughing at us in that little 'covey' of theirs."

Matea Gold in the Los Angeles Times and Brooks Barnes also offer humor wrapups.

Diane Sawyer offered ABC views a video pastiche of the late-night humor at Cheney's expense. Here's a video of the Daily Show.

Lance Gay writes for Scripps Howard News Service: "The Internet sprouted with offerings of 'Dick Cheney hunts people' T-shirts and comments about calling the vice president 'Deadeye Dick.' There also was a version of the vice-presidential seal featuring a shotgun-wielding Elmer Fudd in hunting gear, with the inscription: 'Be vewy vewy quiet, we're hunting I-wackies.'"

Mark Leibovich writes in The Washington Post about the inside-the-beltway jokesters: "Democratic staffers on the Hill could be heard singing a parody of Aerosmith's 'Janie's Got a Gun,' using the words 'Cheney's got a gun.' Or marveling at how 'Republicans really don't like lawyers, do they?' or circulating a quote from Bush, in a 2000 interview with the Houston Chronicle, in which he hailed Cheney as 'somebody who is going to shoot straight with the American people.' "

Political Cartoons

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An amazing outpouring from the nation's political cartoonists.

Here are Tom Toles ; Mike Luckovich ; Ben Sargent ; David Horsey ; Doug Marlette ; Stuart Carlson ; Chan Lowe ; Bob Engelhart ; Kevin Siers ; Richard Crowson ; and much more from Daryl Cagle 's cartoonist index.

Tabloid Humor

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The cover of the New York Daily News calls it "Birdgate!"

The New York Post cover depicts Cheney as Elmer Fudd.

Inside, Deborah Orin writes: "The White House took heavy flak yesterday for waiting a vewwy, vewwy long time before revealing that wascally Vice President Dick Cheney had shot a fellow hunter."

Documents in the Case

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The Smoking Gun Web site yesterday posted the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department report, which blames the shooting on a "hunter's judgment factor," and the Kenedy County Sheriff 's office announcement that it is "fully satisfied that this was no more than an accident."

The vice president's office -- in its only official communique on the issue -- responded with an acknowledgement that Cheney lacked the requisite $7 stamp for hunting upland game birds, but offered no details about the incident.

In this fascinating video, Corpus Christi Caller-Times photographer George Gongora recreates the accident -- by shooting a human-sized target from 90 feet with a 29-gauge shotgun.

The Victim's View

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Dave Michaels and Todd J. Gillman write in the Dallas Morning News: "Sally (Whittington) May said her father does not recall a lot of the incident, nor was he involved in how or whether information about the incident was released: 'He didn't know at the time if he was going to the hospital or the mortuary.' "

Opinion Watch

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Mike Leggett , the outdoors writer for the Austin American-Statesman, writes: "You shot a guy. At least stay in town until he's out of the hospital.

"You shot a guy. Don't blame the sun or the wind or the rotation of the Earth. And for goodness' sake, don't blame Harry Whittington.

"He's the guy you shot, and unless he pulled the trigger himself, it wasn't his fault. Unless he was invisible, it wasn't his fault. And it wasn't his fault that he didn't 'announce his presence,' either. He was supposedly 30 yards behind you. His only fault was being a human being standing on two legs. . . .

"Stand up. Take responsibility. Be a man. You shot a guy."

Eugene Robinson writes in his Washington Post opinion column that "out-of-control is the way this whole administration operates: Ready, fire, aim. Global war on terrorism, global war on poultry, what's the difference? You see something moving, shoot it."

John Podhoretz writes in National Review's Corner: "This story is a very big deal, despite all the mitigating factors -- the accident involved a friend, his medical team was right there to help, and all that. Something like this has never happened before, and it is a genuinely disturbing thing to think that the vice president of the United States actually shot somebody last weekend, even for fans of his. It's disturbing as well that there was a news blackout that lasted nearly a day about this serious incident. It seems beyond question that the vice president is going to have to go before the cameras, explain what happened, and show genuine remorse for his actions, however inadvertent. It's a difficult challenge for someone as reticent as Dick Cheney. But unless he does so, and makes a good showing of it, he will be damaged goods for the remainder of the Bush presidency."

Washington Monthly blogger Kevin Drum writes: "Now, 48 hours after the shooting, Cheney still hasn't talked to the press or even issued a statement saying he feels terrible about what happened, but he has released a statement saying that after learning he didn't have the right permit for shooting quail he has 'sent a 7 dollar check to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, which is the cost of an upland game bird stamp.'

"Can this episode get any more ridiculous? The Veep's office can't rouse itself to say even a single word about what happened, but somehow they have the time to assure us that Cheney is good for the seven bucks he failed to pay for an upland game bird stamp?"

Editorial Watch

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Washington Post editorial : "Mr. Cheney did not check his official title at the Armstrongs' front gate. That was no private citizen who pulled the trigger, sending someone to the hospital. That act, though accidental -- and doubtless both agonizing and embarrassing -- was committed by the country's second-highest public official. Neither Mr. Cheney nor the White House gets to pick and choose when to disclose a shooting. Saturday's incident required immediate public disclosure -- a fact so elementary that the failure to act properly is truly disturbing in its implications."

New York Times editorial : "The vice president appears to have behaved like a teenager who thinks that if he keeps quiet about the wreck, no one will notice that the family car is missing its right door. The administration's communications department has proved that its skills at actually communicating are so rusty it can't get a minor police-blotter story straight. And the White House, in trying to cover up the cover-up, has once again demonstrated that it would rather look inept than open."

Taylor · 02-14-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

I agree that it was apparently a simple hunting accident and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise. A couple years ago I had a buddy who accidentally shot someone in the leg while deerhunting, and he got into ALL SORTS of trouble for it. I also agree that Cheney shouldn't be judged more harshly than the Average Joe, but heck, as far as I know, he still hasn't talked to the police about the incident, which makes HIM think he is indeed above the law.
Anyway, i am glad we can still see humor in what could have been a lot worse, and yup, accidents happen more frequently than we suppose.

I hope my post wasn't taken the wrong way. I try to base my knowledge and opinions on fact (whether its law or otherwise). I just wanted to point out that I don't think they were being lenient on him, nor should they be more harsh to him than the average citizen. So, I started looking around to find some statistics on hunting accidents and charges that generally went with those stats. Most of the charges I found were caused from other factors, and not the accident itself. One example I found was hunters that were pretty trashed and had been drinking all day and one guy accidently shot another guy. He wasn't charged with the shooting itself, but discharging a firearm while under the influence (or something to that effect). In many others, it was determined that many 'hunting accidents' are actually murders and after an investigation, it was determined that some shootings were posed as hunting accidents (taking out a 500,000 life insurance policy the day before doesn't look good LOL).

Pete (pek1) brought up an excellent point...Cheney exited from a vehicle prior to firing the shot. In most states, it is illegal to hunt from a moving motor vehicle, and if this is what Cheney was doing, then he should be charged with it (even if they temporarily stopped the car and were not technically moving, he should be charged). My impression was that the vehicles were parked and they were packing up for the day...one hunter wanders off and the rest of them see some birds. He gets out of the parked car and takes the shot. If this is the case, it would be difficult to charge him with driving and hunting.

Others have pointed out that because some of the hunters were elderly (such as the victim), they very well could have been allowed to drive and hunt at the same time because there are exceptions to the law.

There is also criticism that it took so long to report the accident. I'm looking into what texas law says about the reporting of hunting accidents. The victim was rendered with medical aid from doctors and I believe that technically is reporting it. Some states require immediate aid for medical, but accidents do not have to be reported for 24 hours. So again, the Cheney gang may not have broken any laws here.

I do agree, however, that the White House waited too long to release this story to the media.

Steel X · 02-14-2006, 07:47 PM

Well I just heard he's dead now...what are they going to do with Cheney. just let him off the hook because it was only an "accident"?

Steel X · 02-14-2006, 08:00 PM

"The White House typically releases information immediately on incidents involving the president's personal life, such as bike-riding accidents, to avoid the appearance of covering up embarrassments. It is highly unusual, if not unprecedented, for the White House to allow a private citizen [to] serve as its de facto spokesman."

everybody gets embrassassed all the time. get over it.

"At the White House, Mr. Cheney made no statement on Monday and remained out of public view. At the beginning of a meeting with Secretary General Kofi Annan of the United Nations, Mr. Bush laughingly told Mr. Cheney that reporters would later enter the room; the vice president left before the journalists arrived."
He must be nervous because he proably did it on purpose...

Here's Bill Plante on CBS this morning: "The vice president's office did what they wanted. . . . In any other White House that I've covered -- and that's several, as you know -- the vice president would never have this kind of power. But if it were up to Dick Cheney, he wouldn't tell us if our shirts were on fire, for heaven's sakes. He likes to hold things close and he and his office drove this."
cheney doesn't sound like a very smart man to me.

"Cheney's allies (and those are different than Bush allies in this case) argue that Cheney cared more about his hurt friend and his host than he did about informing the Beltway press. Maybe for the first hour or two, but to wait so long only points out what we always have known about the vice president: He doesn't give a damn about the public or press' right to know. . . ."
if he does really care, then he should at least say he's sorry on public televison...what's so hard about that?!

VandeHei and Moreno write in The Washington Post: "In a telephone interview, [Katharine] Armstrong said that she, her mother and her sister, Sara Storey Armstrong Hixon, decided on Sunday morning after breakfast to report the shooting accident to the media. 'It was my family's own volition, and the vice president agreed. We felt -- my family felt and we conferred as a family -- that the information needed to go public. It was our idea,' Armstrong said."
Yeah right...they've must put the media on hold so to change alittle of the story trying to make cheney look innocent or something like that.

But Nicholas Riccardi and James Gerstenzang write in the Los Angeles Times that Anne Armstrong, co-owner of the ranch, "said Cheney had spoken with her Saturday evening about disclosing the incident to the public. 'We knew word would get out,' she said. He urged her to tell friends and family first, before word leaked out to the media."
Wait a mintue...I thought Cheney said he didnt know he shot someone 'til sunday morning...so he told the co-owner to hold this information til its time to release it to public?...hmm something's not right.

Nesmuth · 02-15-2006, 09:54 AM

Cheeny just gave the guy he shot a $1.6 billon get well card.

Richard

Steel X · 02-15-2006, 03:08 PM

...aaaand he's dead now.

(any more updates on cheney, please?)

Endymion · 02-15-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel X

...aaaand he's dead now.

(any more updates on cheney, please?)

Where'd you get that? Got a link? Can't seem to locate anything on the news.

02-15-2006, 03:12 PM

Cheney Breaks Silence on Shooting

By Daniela Deane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 15, 2006; 3:18 PM

Quote:

Vice President Cheney accepted responsibility today for the accidental shooting of a 78-year-old man in a hunting accident last weekend, saying that watching his friend fall to the ground bleeding after he was injured was an "image I'll never get out of my mind."

"You can't blame anybody else," Cheney said in an interview with Fox News Channel. "I'm the guy who pulled the trigger and shot my friend. It's a moment I'll never forget."

Cheney said that after he shot Harry Whittington on Saturday afternoon at a Texas ranch, he ran over to him and said, "I had no idea that you were there. He didn't respond."

Cheney said that Whittington was laying on his back, bleeding on the ground. "You could see where the shot had struck him," Cheney said. "It was one of the worst days of my life."

The full Cheney interview -- his first public comments on the accident -- will be shown on Fox News Channel at 6 p.m. EST.

Doctors treating Whittington said the Austin lawyer was in stable condition Wednesday, exhibiting no further complications a day after developing an abnormal heart rhythm from birdshot that had moved and then lodged in his heart.

A spokesman for the Corpus Christi hospital where Whittington is being treated said the Republican lawyer is in the intensive care unit "strictly for privacy reasons" rather than because of his medical condition.

Several prominent Republicans said Tuesday that the vice president's slow and unapologetic response to the shooting was turning the quail-hunting mishap into a political liability for the Bush administration, prompting White House officials to press Cheney to address the issue. Cheney, who said he was traveling that weekend without representatives of the press, said today that he thought it made sense to let the owner of the ranch disclose the accident to the public. "I thought that was the right call," Cheney said. "I still do."

Hospital officials said Whittington had regained a normal heart rhythm Wednesday with the help of medications. They said he was sitting up in a chair, eating regular food and planning on doing some legal work.

Dr. David Blanchard, the emergency room chief at Christus Spohn Memorial Hospital, said doctors were now "100 percent satisfied that where the BB is, it will remain." Yesterday, doctors announced that a birdshot pellet had moved and lodged itself in Whittington's heart, causing the abnormal heart rhythm.

Hospital officials were tight-lipped Wednesday after being forthcoming on Tuesday.

They refused to answer questions about medications Whittington was taking, saying they were not going to "practice medicine on television." They had no comment on whether Whittington's blood alcohol level had been tested after the accident. They would not comment on how many pellets were inside Whittington and they said they had no idea who was footing Whittington's hospital bill.

Although Whittington was shot late Saturday afternoon on a Texas ranch, the news was not made public until Sunday, about 21 hours after it happened.

Several prominent Republican leaders have said Cheney should have immediately disclosed the shooting Saturday night to avoid even the suggestion of a cover-up and should have offered a public apology for his role in shooting Whittington.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

Taylor · 02-15-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steel X

...aaaand he's dead now.

(any more updates on cheney, please?)

I too cannot find anywhere that says he died other than people trying to start rumors to something that is not true. And its from the same people that say that Cheney intentionally shot him. I love how people try to start rumors this way.....if only to sway one voter in the next election, I guess tactics like this will always be around.

Heath · 02-15-2006, 03:18 PM

Yeah I was baffled on that one too.

IcedTeaRulz · 02-15-2006, 04:01 PM

Died? It says that he had a mild heart attack.

Taylor · 02-15-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcedTeaRulz

Died? It says that he had a mild heart attack.

People like to start rumors like this. Republican vice president murders fellow hunter by 'accidentally' shooting him. Of course this did not happen, but people will try to start rumors like this in the hopes of swaying voters in the next elections. Its pretty underhanded if you ask me, but its a tactic that is frequently used. Its one of my big complaints about democrats I know. If your issues and positions are so important, why not try to sell people on those issues instead of lying about the Republicans in order to win votes?

Steel X · 02-15-2006, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor

I too cannot find anywhere that says he died other than people trying to start rumors to something that is not true. And its from the same people that say that Cheney intentionally shot him. I love how people try to start rumors this way.....if only to sway one voter in the next election, I guess tactics like this will always be around.

Well I heard he died on the MSN homepage where it shows an article about the man's death after that he got shot "accidently" from cheney.

Steel X · 02-15-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcedTeaRulz

Died? It says that he had a mild heart attack.

Yes I heard that he did, but then I also heard he died due to blood loss or whatever like that, etc...hell, I just found out by the headlines at msn.com saying that he died.

IslandGal · 02-15-2006, 06:55 PM

Cheney Could Face Charges in Shooting

DALLAS - If the man wounded by Dick Cheney dies, the vice president could — in theory at least — face criminal charges, even though the shooting was an accident.

Dallas defense attorney David Finn, who has been a state and a federal prosecutor, said Wednesday that a Texas grand jury could bring a charge of criminally negligent homicide if there is evidence the vice president knew or should have known "there was a substantial or unjustifiable risk that his actions would result in him shooting a fellow hunter."

To indict Cheney, the grand jury would have to conclude that a reasonable person in the vice president's place would say to himself, "I am not pulling the trigger because this other guy might be in front of me," Finn said.

The charge carries up to two years behind bars, but with no previous felonies Cheney would be eligible for probation, the former prosecutor said.

Manslaughter, a more serious charge, would require a prosecutor to prove Cheney was reckless, which would be "virtually impossible under the facts we know today," said Michael Sharlot, professor of criminal law at the University of Texas at Austin.

"With recklessness, the defendant has to be aware of the risk, but choose to ignore it. With negligence, he doesn't have to be conscious of the risk, but a reasonable person would have been," Sharlot said.

As vice president, Cheney has no immunity from prosecution.

Mark Skurka, first assistant district attorney of the three-county area where the shooting took place, said prosecutors did not have an investigation under way.

"If something unfortunate happens, then we'll decide what to do, then we'll decide whether we're going to have an investigation or not," Skurka said.

If District Attorney Carlos Valdez decided to pursue charges, he would forward the matter to a grand jury, which would determine whether to indict Cheney. Valdez, a Democrat, is best known for his prosecution of Yolanda Saldivar, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1995 slaying of Tejano singer Selena.

Harry Whittington, a 78-year-old lawyer, was struck in the face, neck and chest with shotgun pellets over the weekend while Cheney was shooting at quail. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack Tuesday after a pellet traveled to his heart.

On Wednesday, hospital officials said he had a normal heart rhythm again and was sitting up in a chair, eating regular food and planned to do some legal work in his hospital room. Doctors said they are highly optimistic he will recover.

In a TV interview Wednesday, the vice president accepted full blame for the shooting and defended his decision not to publicly disclose the accident until the following day. He called it "one of the worst days of my life."

If Whittington recovers, Cheney could still face a felony charge of negligently causing injury to an aged person, Sharlot said. But he said such a charge would be "quite unusual" in the case of a hunting accident.

In the only other case of someone being shot by a vice president, Aaron Burr was indicted on murder charges in New York and New Jersey for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel in 1804, but he was never tried and finished out his term in office.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060215/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

**bbnt** · 02-15-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor

People like to start rumors like this. Republican vice president murders fellow hunter by 'accidentally' shooting him. Of course this did not happen, but people will try to start rumors like this in the hopes of swaying voters in the next elections. Its pretty underhanded if you ask me, but its a tactic that is frequently used. Its one of my big complaints about democrats I know. If your issues and positions are so important, why not try to sell people on those issues instead of lying about the Republicans in order to win votes?

sorry but the lying and corruption award goes to the Republicans

Taylor · 02-15-2006, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnt

sorry but the lying and corruption award goes to the Republicans

Well, we can leave that for another thread, but in the case of Cheney shooting this guy, I have heard from several democrats (including folks here at AD) that Cheney intentionally shot the guy and that he died and that Cheney was guilty of murder. Who would vote for a murderer? Thats why its done. Perhaps things are different in your town, but where I am, it is the Republicans who speak the truth and the Democrats who will pull stuff out of their arse (even as so far as saying that Republicans are racists and hate black people...its the Dems that say that).

**bbnt** · 02-15-2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor

Well, we can leave that for another thread, but in the case of Cheney shooting this guy, I have heard from several democrats (including folks here at AD) that Cheney intentionally shot the guy and that he died and that Cheney was guilty of murder. Who would vote for a murderer? Thats why its done. Perhaps things are different in your town, but where I am, it is the Republicans who speak the truth and the Democrats who will pull stuff out of their arse (even as so far as saying that Republicans are racists and hate black people...its the Dems that say that).

I don't agree with that but I think it's best left alone

Taylor · 02-15-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnt

I don't agree with that but I think it's best left alone

LOL...at least we can agree on that

02-14-2006, 02:08 PM	#36 (permalink)
Beowulf Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 10,515	What ordinarily happens in this sort of situation to the Average Joe is that he gets charged with misdemeanor assault and negligently wounding another person, and the punishment would be something like 20 or 30 hours work on the Sheriff's road crews, no hunting for a couple years during its probation time, a hefty fine, etc. But will Cheney be considered above the law? Yup. __________________ .

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02-14-2006, 01:42 PM	#33 (permalink)
The*Empress Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: on Plantation. Posts: 6,933	What happen if the lawyer die from heart attack? Will Cheney be charge with murder? Will Cheney not be Vice President anymore?

02-14-2006, 07:47 PM	#44 (permalink)
Steel X Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Carolinas/Rochester, NY. Posts: 13,824	Well I just heard he's dead now...what are they going to do with Cheney. just let him off the hook because it was only an "accident"?

02-14-2006, 08:00 PM	#45 (permalink)
Steel X Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Carolinas/Rochester, NY. Posts: 13,824	"The White House typically releases information immediately on incidents involving the president's personal life, such as bike-riding accidents, to avoid the appearance of covering up embarrassments. It is highly unusual, if not unprecedented, for the White House to allow a private citizen [to] serve as its de facto spokesman." everybody gets embrassassed all the time. get over it. "At the White House, Mr. Cheney made no statement on Monday and remained out of public view. At the beginning of a meeting with Secretary General Kofi Annan of the United Nations, Mr. Bush laughingly told Mr. Cheney that reporters would later enter the room; the vice president left before the journalists arrived." He must be nervous because he proably did it on purpose... Here's Bill Plante on CBS this morning: "The vice president's office did what they wanted. . . . In any other White House that I've covered -- and that's several, as you know -- the vice president would never have this kind of power. But if it were up to Dick Cheney, he wouldn't tell us if our shirts were on fire, for heaven's sakes. He likes to hold things close and he and his office drove this." cheney doesn't sound like a very smart man to me. "Cheney's allies (and those are different than Bush allies in this case) argue that Cheney cared more about his hurt friend and his host than he did about informing the Beltway press. Maybe for the first hour or two, but to wait so long only points out what we always have known about the vice president: He doesn't give a damn about the public or press' right to know. . . ." if he does really care, then he should at least say he's sorry on public televison...what's so hard about that?! VandeHei and Moreno write in The Washington Post: "In a telephone interview, [Katharine] Armstrong said that she, her mother and her sister, Sara Storey Armstrong Hixon, decided on Sunday morning after breakfast to report the shooting accident to the media. 'It was my family's own volition, and the vice president agreed. We felt -- my family felt and we conferred as a family -- that the information needed to go public. It was our idea,' Armstrong said." Yeah right...they've must put the media on hold so to change alittle of the story trying to make cheney look innocent or something like that. But Nicholas Riccardi and James Gerstenzang write in the Los Angeles Times that Anne Armstrong, co-owner of the ranch, "said Cheney had spoken with her Saturday evening about disclosing the incident to the public. 'We knew word would get out,' she said. He urged her to tell friends and family first, before word leaked out to the media." Wait a mintue...I thought Cheney said he didnt know he shot someone 'til sunday morning...so he told the co-owner to hold this information til its time to release it to public?...hmm something's not right.

02-15-2006, 09:54 AM	#46 (permalink)
Nesmuth Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Southland of California Posts: 3,199	Cheeny just gave the guy he shot a $1.6 billon get well card. Richard

02-15-2006, 03:08 PM	#47 (permalink)
Steel X Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Carolinas/Rochester, NY. Posts: 13,824	...aaaand he's dead now. (any more updates on cheney, please?)

02-15-2006, 03:18 PM	#51 (permalink)
Heath Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8,088	Yeah I was baffled on that one too.

02-15-2006, 04:01 PM	#52 (permalink)
IcedTeaRulz Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: ...Not sure where I am... Posts: 1,833	Died? It says that he had a mild heart attack.

02-15-2006, 06:55 PM	#56 (permalink)
IslandGal Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunshine State Posts: 4,322	Cheney Could Face Charges in Shooting DALLAS - If the man wounded by Dick Cheney dies, the vice president could — in theory at least — face criminal charges, even though the shooting was an accident. Dallas defense attorney David Finn, who has been a state and a federal prosecutor, said Wednesday that a Texas grand jury could bring a charge of criminally negligent homicide if there is evidence the vice president knew or should have known "there was a substantial or unjustifiable risk that his actions would result in him shooting a fellow hunter." To indict Cheney, the grand jury would have to conclude that a reasonable person in the vice president's place would say to himself, "I am not pulling the trigger because this other guy might be in front of me," Finn said. The charge carries up to two years behind bars, but with no previous felonies Cheney would be eligible for probation, the former prosecutor said. Manslaughter, a more serious charge, would require a prosecutor to prove Cheney was reckless, which would be "virtually impossible under the facts we know today," said Michael Sharlot, professor of criminal law at the University of Texas at Austin. "With recklessness, the defendant has to be aware of the risk, but choose to ignore it. With negligence, he doesn't have to be conscious of the risk, but a reasonable person would have been," Sharlot said. As vice president, Cheney has no immunity from prosecution. Mark Skurka, first assistant district attorney of the three-county area where the shooting took place, said prosecutors did not have an investigation under way. "If something unfortunate happens, then we'll decide what to do, then we'll decide whether we're going to have an investigation or not," Skurka said. If District Attorney Carlos Valdez decided to pursue charges, he would forward the matter to a grand jury, which would determine whether to indict Cheney. Valdez, a Democrat, is best known for his prosecution of Yolanda Saldivar, who was sentenced to life in prison for the 1995 slaying of Tejano singer Selena. Harry Whittington, a 78-year-old lawyer, was struck in the face, neck and chest with shotgun pellets over the weekend while Cheney was shooting at quail. Whittington suffered a mild heart attack Tuesday after a pellet traveled to his heart. On Wednesday, hospital officials said he had a normal heart rhythm again and was sitting up in a chair, eating regular food and planned to do some legal work in his hospital room. Doctors said they are highly optimistic he will recover. In a TV interview Wednesday, the vice president accepted full blame for the shooting and defended his decision not to publicly disclose the accident until the following day. He called it "one of the worst days of my life." If Whittington recovers, Cheney could still face a felony charge of negligently causing injury to an aged person, Sharlot said. But he said such a charge would be "quite unusual" in the case of a hunting accident. In the only other case of someone being shot by a vice president, Aaron Burr was indicted on murder charges in New York and New Jersey for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel in 1804, but he was never tried and finished out his term in office. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060215/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl