Jiro

I don't dispute that.

On the other hand.... a child falling behind is mainly due to lack of parental involvement and/or family stability at home.

__________________
- Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

Deafness

__________________
This advertising will not be shown in this way to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on AllDeaf.com

shel90

[QUOTE=naisho;1946869]Yeah, true, Sign Language helps deaf people more than it does for being able to speak and oral better, but I think it has to do with a bigger problem. It may be more about 'unifying' Americans the simpler way possible.

Look at America's society, they want green card and VISA immigrants and citizens to at least learn to speak the english language if they intend to stay here. American's aren't interested in learning Vietnamese or Spanish to accommodate the new language, they want people to speak their language.

When you have a sign language, it has no real 'bridge' to the spoken english used by Americans, as it is just another language that exist and doesn't help them unless they learn it. So, the concept may have been seen as to patch up something between hearing and deaf so at least the people who have no knowledge of the language can at least understand some of it.

It's sorta like SimCom, if you use SimCom to teach ASL to a group of hearing students, it seems to be a lot easier than it is to go total voice off and teach them ASL. They would have a hard time adapting.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect.

Would you mix French with English to try to teach French children proper English?

My using two languages at the same time, you are providing a linguistically confusing environment for the children.

Both languages MUST be kept separate.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

shel90

Maybe not you but many many many parents out there in real life do. My mom was one of them. Pls dont lie to yourself about the harsh reality out there about the hearing world's prejudice against sign language.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

naisho

huh, that's interesting. I didn't think of it to see it that way. I just thought of ASL as another variation of english, just structured differently, but not as a complete different language as it shares the written mode of english words. I take it that you are against signing and mouthing/speaking at the same time?

CSign

You speak as if you are familiar with my son and his abilities.

Please. Let's not be disingenuous.

Journey

While I agree that children who fall behind at school often do so because of a lack of support or a disruption of environment, I think that is a digression from the topic of cued speech - just as I feel that criticizing a poster's grammar (especially in a bi or multilingual forum such as AD) is a distraction from an interesting and valid topic. ;-)

Question to anyone .... While the concept of cued speech is not new to me, my understanding of it is quite limited. I am not clear on the actual intended timeline of cued speech and it's usage. Is it meant to be used throughout one's lifetime or just as a learning supplement during specific time in one's oral development?

naisho

Supplemental to some, a primary method to others, complete abstain for the rest. Opinions seem to vary just like about gay marriage.

Jiro

Then you need to be more careful with what you say next time

Excuse me? I'm always concerned for every deaf kid. I do my damnest to educate every single hearing person who have a misconception about deaf people or wanted to learn more about it.

It's unhealthy to always think everybody is out to get you. Please get over it.

__________________
- Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

Deafguy25

The guys at the Journal of Deaf Education and Deaf Studies seem to think you need a working knowledge of English to read and write...So do those at NTID, Depaul University, York University, and more.

RIT - NTID - Raising and Educating a Deaf Child - Question from S.S., South Dakota

"In order to address this issue, deaf children require access to some form of face-to-face English (e.g., contact signing, Cued Speech, signed form of English, speechreading, etc.) in sufficient quantity and quality so that they can acquire the language that they are going to need to make sense of text. While we recognize that it can be challenging to consider the balance between the two languages in your daughter’s life, there is no way around the fact that she will need control of English vocabulary, grammar, and syntax in order to read and write it."

shel90

ASL is a separate language from English.

Yes, I am against it because it compromises both languages.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

Bottesini

Personal experience tells me that is completely untrue. I learned to read and write by the use of cards printed with a word and a picture. And also cards with the word on the actual objects in our home.

__________________

AlleyCat

That's exactly how I learned it. It was a 3-part preschool program -- vocab based off pictures on a card with words, then the sign, then the speech.

shel90

I didnt have full access to English but yet, I learned it by reading constantly. Contrary to popular belief, having spoken English skills is NOT the only way to acquire literacy in English.

__________________
"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

jillio

Hmmm....I'm not certain about that, since the visual representation is completely tied to information perceived auditorily. If you want to reinforce the kinesthetic properties of language, it seems to me that a contextual approach involving kinesthetics would be more successful...eg ASL.

jillio

And, as I have described previously around here, that is the approach that I used with my son, as well. It allows a child to grasp the symbolic significance of language, whether it be in the form of sign, a printed word, or a verbal utterance.

jillio

[quote=shel90;1947159]I was taught ASL through immersion in the Deaf community. I had less problems learning than many people I have seen who have attempted to learn ASL through a combination of methods such as simcom. The only reason it might seem simpler is because adults learning ASL have a difficult time in letting go of the way they have always processed language. They keep trying to equate ASL to English and to translate every ASL sign into an English word to understand it, rather than processing ASL from a visual perspective.

jillio

You took something out of context and as a consequence, are misinterpreting it. Let me give you something to think about:

You are not misunderstanding the link between decoding and comprehension. While decoding skills are necessary for learning to read, they alone are not sufficient for comprehension. As in your example, a child can “sound out” the word dinosaur but if she does not know the word dinosaur in English, she will not understand the word that was decoded. The fact that she understands the concept of dinosaur or is able to sign dinosaur in ASL is useful in a broad sense; however, this knowledge is not adequate to achieve success in the reading process as it gives her little knowledge of the English word.

This is from your same link, and is demonstrative of the way that concept and whole language is used to teach reading of the English language. It is a matter of understanding the symbolic nature of language to begin with, and the using those skills in a cross modal way. For instance, if the child knows the word "dinosaur" in ASL, they have the concept of a dinosaur. It is simply a matter of their understanding that the print word is simply another symbol for the concept they already know. This is the problem you run into with cued speech. It does not provide any conceptual information. Conceptual information is mandatory for reading comprehension. If a child is language delayed, as are so many of our deaf children (as the result of not having linguistic input from birth via ASL), then simply recognizing or being able to repeat a word is not indicative of comprehension.

Deafguy25

They explicitly say that the child must have a working knowledge of face to face English, which is exactly what you are denying.

The English word DINOSAUR contains no conceptual information, and neither would the cue. How is that many hearing kids can learn that dinosaur means dinosaur without a conceptual sign?

KristinaB

My daughter learned to read by the closed captioning on the TV. That is, she learned to sound out the words by the captioning. We worked hard but not to the point of tears in teaching her to read. It was a struggle and at 17, she still hates to read. She does, because I ask her to, nicely, but she doesn't like it. She was 9 before knowing how to read. She does read on level with most other 12th graders, but does not totally comprehend. That is a hard thing for her. Her favorite subject? Early American history. She loves anything related to the 1500's to the early 1800's. She also will choose biographies of the President's wives.

Son on the other had, started reading at age 2. By age 10, his reading level was college level. To challenge him, I make him write out "the end of the story in my words" kind of things. It challenges his memory and we work that way with him. He has created his own ending to hundreds of books. Some are wild and wacky and some are totally thought provoking.

__________________
Taking life one day at a time.

jillio

This is so very true. And this is the problem with cued speech in teaching literacy to children who do not hear the phonemes of the English language. The handshapes indicating phonetic differences are meaningless. However, if you allow them to relate the printed word to a concept they already know, they make the symbolic connection. Therefore, not being able to say the word "dinosaur", or being able to say "dinosaur" is no indication what so ever of comprehension in reading the print word.

Bottesini

So do others of us who learned in the same manner, as we have just told you.

Deaf people just told you how it works. Please listen.

__________________

jillio

I have denied nothing of the kind. You are grossly misunderstanding my explanations.

My son had a working knowledge of English at the age of 3 1/2. He was reading at that age. But he did not have oral skills. You are failing to understand the symbolic nature of language. I really find that odd given that you have stated that you are DoD.

Deafguy25

So when a deaf person with a CI tells me that ASL is useless for kids with implants, I should take their advice rather than look at the majority?

Deafguy25

I simply said that they need to have a working knowledge of English, in addition to ASL.

jillio

And if you encourage the reading of the subject she loves, it will increase her reading skills across the board. I have always said that it does not matter what a child reads...it matters that they read, period.

Bottesini

That has nothing to do with what I and others told you now.

Why are you throwing in this non sequiter??

Are you

__________________

jillio

ASL faciiliates that. It is the foundation upon which a working knowledge of English us built. CS does not address that. What good does recognition of a word do if the concept of the symbol for representation does not exist?

jillio

You are either extremely confused, or making a very poor attempt at trying to twist the topic to make a point.

Deafguy25

Because you think that because something worked for you, that it will work for all deaf kids. I showed an example where another deaf person would be telling me what worked for them, and they want it for all deaf kids, even if it isn't the best way.

Bottesini

It's a commonly used method that works. You previously said that it was not possible.

__________________