sallylou

I grew up hearing. I'm an over-educated nerd so I'm very proficient at both speaking and writing in English. I can't use SEE. The whole system is just too overwhelming! I don't feel that way about ASL. Even though the structure of ASL is different from English, it's easy to learn and works well for me.

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Deafness

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shel90

One question...

Does it work if one takes spoken English and change the spoken form to follow ASL syntax?

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sallylou

No! It doesn't work at all. I have to "turn off" English in my brain. I don't translate when I' m signing. I have to switch into "ASL mode" while I'm signing. English doesn't translate directly into ASL. Trying to translate only confuses me.

I guess that it's impossible for me to translate from a spoken language to a visual language.

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deafskeptic

I think i'd get strange looks if I said store go me outloud in English.

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CSign

Do you not have to ever explain what a new word means in ASL?
I think we both know the answer to that. In ASL you have one sign that conveys the concept of different words with similar meanings. In English, and MCE you are expanding upon their vocabulary. What is the problem with that?
Why is it wrong for me to use a tool to assist my son in his mastery of English? Why is it wrong, or "ineffective" if he is achieving more than what's expected of him at this age?
By what standards are you judging what's in the best interest of the child? By our standards (which are quite high), we have made every move and every step in his best interest. We can feel good about our choices by the many positive things we see from him every day. I will every day do what is best fort son, regardless of what it means for me. Perhaps you should take the time to really read what I wrote, it seems you have missed my point. I didn't take the "easy way out." I made a choice that required a lot of hard work in order to provide my child with a complete language model. Why reinvent the wheel? Why not use signs that support the spoken language that is being used around him? I would never not sign with and around my child. The use of true ASL does not include spoken language. He is surrounded by spoken language in his day to day interactions with society. I am giving him access to those interactions which he would not otherwise have access to.

jillio

Excellent question. And a very good reason why it doesn't work.

jillio

Exactly. We were discussing the other day about feeling an actual cognitive shift when communicating in ASL and not having to interpret into English for understanding.

jillio

There is nothing wrong with you using a tool to assist your son in his mastery of English. But that is not all you are doing. You are also using it as a communication method. In fact, if you are signing and speaking at the same time, you are not even using SEE as intended. You are using a method known as SSS, or sign supported speech.

People who have acquired ASL as a child also are surrounded by spoken language. They have no problem understanding it. In fact, the highest performing group of deaf children are those who have ASL as their native language. Deaf of Deaf.

shel90

So, ASL should have never been changed to follow the syntax of spoken language.

I am glad you are learning sign language and use it with your son. That's great.

However, to say that SEE is a language is inaccurate. We cant say spoken ASL is a language, right?

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"Wine improves with age. The older I get, the better I like it."

--- Anonymous

sallylou

It's not wrong to use SEE as a tool. SEE is a tool, not a language.

My point is that communicating with SEE all of the time would be burdensome and overwhelming for me. And I'm an accomplished adult. It stands to reason that a child might feel the same way.

I can make my own decisions regarding when to wear hearing aids and try to communicate orally, when to use ASL, and when to communicate in written language. Ideally, a child would have all of those choices to met all of her needs.

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Reba

re: Sim-Com

Do hearing people speak French and write German at the same time?

naisho

Translators do..

posts from hell

That would be absurdly difficult.

naisho

This is my opinion over the matter of language and fluency.
Fluency, personally, is the ability to read and write at a standardized level accepted to the population, and that level is gauged within tests focused on an individual's writing. SAT1/2, GRE, GMAT, etc are great examples of this - as the evaluator of a piece of written material, you can tell if the person has met or exceeded 'standardized' levels.


Fluency is NOT being able to speak it, and in sense, being able to sign. Speaking and signing are modes to english, case in point: you've heard of illiterate people who can speak (or sign) but cannot read or write. Thereby, fluency or mastery of english should be eliminated from their achievements.

Everything that isn't writing can be considered like roads - we have ASL, Oral speaking, SEE, basic gestures.. etc, these are like separate paths that all lead to the final destination of "English mastery". SEE, PSE, Sim-com, ASL, and even speaking (to me) are methods used to help obtain fluency. You guys can argue which is better - the shortest path taken for the most success..

..but to me, mastery and fluency of english in my eyes does not care which method you took, as long as you are able to read and write past a certain range.

naisho

Christoph Waltz. There's more than just him, I'm sure.

Reba

And it doesn't come out sounding natural or complete either, does it? I've listened to UN translators, who are the best, and it still sounds weird. They've also been caught making mistakes.

Suppose a mom is speaking French to her young child while expecting him to listen to her speak and read what she writes in German simultaneously. How easy, accurate or natural is that?

Reba

They aren't teachers or interpreters for the deaf kids in mainstream schools.

shel90

It is fine to do that to someone who already has a strong language foundation. That way the person will be able to figure out what is being conveyed to him/her.

To do that to a child who is the language formative years is another story. It is very risky.

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naisho

Oh. I didn't know your question was specific - sorry.

posts from hell

Yeah, hes like one out of?

naisho

He's an immediate example. Hell, spin it around and change the languages and I can write in mandarin and speak in spanish, or write in japanese and speak korean. It's not difficult, merely. Many american born non-native immigrant families have children who are capable of one more language than english.

posts from hell

at the same time?

naisho

Why not? Does it sound hard or something?

I can listen to someone speak in another language and write in english at the same time, easily. A part of how I was able to learn multiple languages was translating what people were saying as part of the lessons. We would listen to audio tapes and transcribe it into english, turn that in for homework.

I'm guessing it might be the same thing that goes on for interpreters who may translate someone's sign.

posts from hell

Hmm just isnt that natural i think. Especially german and french

naisho

This is the perspective I'm seeing it.. germans taking french in germany.
or frenchie learning german in france. Transcribing the conversations in a discussion to the other language.

Whereas I had this situation in class, listening or speaking japanese and writing out where the narrator was going in english.

Yeah, first few times it is not easy but it's just being new.. once you are used to it or work in multilingual environments for periods of time (like spanish workers in a chinese restuarant in the USA), I'm thinking it eventually comes to them.

BecLak

CSign,

You are new on the forum and hearing. It takes a bit of time to get the 'feel' of the Deaf Community and Culture. You can't just rush in hook, line and sinker. Try not to get so defensive. The mentality here is different from the hearing world, try to understand it a little more before drawing your guns. Jillio, is hearing but has been immersed in the Deaf community for a long time. She gets it.

Me, I am Oral-deaf, raised in a hearing family, full-on mainstreamed without access to Deaf Community or sign language until 18 months ago. So you can say, I understand both worlds.

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Anij

At the exact same time - or do you Listen THEN immediately write? There is ALWAYS a slight delay in the brain as it sorts the language rules for multiple languages ... which is way ASL interpreters are always a few words behind the speech the hear.

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Buffalo

One of the Harry Potter novels in binary is even longer!!!

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“The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)

Buffalo

I don't get it.

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“The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)

Buffalo

Or is it a language if you take English and change the grammer in German style??? Nein!

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“The problem is not that the (deaf) students do not hear. The problem is that the hearing world does not listen. “- Rev Jesse L. Jackson ( American Civil Rights Activist, Minister)